Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20180124

Finding religion in the Stormy Daniels affair. You get a mulligan you. Get a do over here. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Breaking news from the Washington Post about the fbi Deputy Director Andrew Mccabe and the president. Its literally just been published. We learned today before that the sitting attorney general of the United States, the top Law Enforcement officer in the nation was questioned by the special counsels team in a criminal investigation of the president of the United States, his campaign and associates for possible obstruction of justice and collusion with a foreign adversary. Take that in for a moment. The Justice Department confirming today Jeff Sessions did sit for hours last week with Robert Muellers investigators, accompanied by his personal attorney. They also learned today that james comey, the former fbi director whom the president fired last may, was also interviewed by muellers team late last year. On deck according to the Washington Post none other than the president of the United States himself. Mueller reportedly wants to question the president in the coming weeks about the departures of comey and former National Security adviser michael flynn. As far as we know, muellers investigation is proceeding on at least two separate tract abc Jeff Sessions is implicated in both of them. First theres the question of russian collusion with the campaign. Sessions was a key member of that campaign. During the election he met at least twice with the Russian Ambassador encounters he failed to disclose under oath to former colleagues. We know that carter page told sessions ahead of time about his own trip to moscow in the summer of 2016 where he met russian officials and we know sessions chaired a meeting attended by George Papadopoulos in march 2016 as you can see there on the screen. Papadopoulos spoke about his efforts through russian kaks to set up a meeting between donald trump and vladimir putin. Sessions later claimed under oath he couldnt remember much about that meeting except, except his own response. I pushed back. Ill just say it that way. Did anyone else at that meeting including then candidate trump react in any way to what about papadopoulos had presented . I dont recall. Okay. So your testimony is that neither donald trump nor anyone else at the meeting expressed any interest in meeting the russian president or had any concerns about communications between the campaign and the russians . I dont recall it. I remember the pushback. Then theres the second track of muellers investigation, the question whether the president or aides committed obstruction of justice which is a flown under felony law by pressuring comey to end the investigation and firing hip when he refused to comply. The attorney general is elbow deep in the firing of comey, one of the officials asked to leave the oval office before the president asked comey to let the flynn matter go. Comey testified he employered sessions to keep the president from communicating with him directly. Later after comey testified twice on capitol hill, the attorney general wanted one negative article a day in the news media about mr. Comey according to the New York Times. The Justice Department denied that account but the times stands by its story. When the president eventually made up his mind to get rid of comey for good, he reported brought sessions into oval office to discuss it. Ultimately it was sessions who wrote the memo recommending comey be fired used by the president as a shortlived pretext. Sxwroefr all sessions has been both a target and a tool of efforts bri the president to rein in the russia probe and bented Justice Department to the white houses will. Last year sessions demanded control of the investigation dispatching white House Counsel the attorney general not to recuse himself. The president threatened to fire sessions and kept on attacking him months later. Sessions should have never recused himself. And if he was going to recuse himself, he should have told me before he took the job and i would have picked somebody else. Jeff sessions takes the job, gets into the job, recuses himself, i then have which frankly, i there is very up fair to the president. Sessions appears to be doing the president s bidding in other ways. Last night we learned the current fbi director threatened to resign, a fairly extraordinary step if you know anyone who las a job like this after sessions taking a cue from the president s own tweets pressured him to fire his deputy who has been the target of political attacks. Just moments ago, this report from the Washington Post. Andrew mccabe, that individual who is the acting director targeted by president , tag the by trump tv and the president s allies recounting that trump asked him in a get to know you meet whom he voted for during account oval office who he voted for during the election. Mccabe declined to answer. Senator Richard Blumenthal is a member of the Senate Judiciary committee conducting its own investigation into potential russian collusion and obstruction of justice. Andrew mccabe was Deputy Director and then acting director after comeys firing. He has come under tremendous criticism from the president and his allies. New reporting tonight suggesting the president in their first meeting asked him squarely who he voted for. What do you make of that . It is explosive because what it shows is even more powerful evidence of obstruction of justice and interference with the fbi and an attack on the fbi itself through Christopher Wray and trying to fire mccabe after asking Andrew Mccabe a longstanding career professional in the fbi whether he had political involvement in the sense that who he voted for. And i think it adds context also to the continuing work of the Judiciary Committee. We should be looking into whether or not this kind of interview involving president of the United States and a career professional of the fbi represents an attack on this institution. It is one of the premier Law Enforcement institutions in the world. And it is now under attack by republicans a relentless allout assault on our Law Enforcement institutions. Do you see a pattern here insofar as james comey testified the president cleared everyone out of the room or had him over for a oneonone meeting, asked had i am for loyalty. When he did not offer loyalty, he asked him to see his way to letting flynn go, thats the first person. Then Andrew Mccabe, brought in for a get to know you and asked essentially out of loyalty who did you vote for, lo and behold the president calls for him to be fired. We now have reporting he pressured wray to fire him and mccabe ultimately retires. It is definitely part of a pattern. Thats absolutely right. And i saw your very excellent insights earlier on ari melbers show the beat where you said only one person knows what donald trump did. Well, there is evidence here of what he did. And what he thought at the time in that pattern, also in his tweets about his contempt for the fbi, the investigation by mueller being a hoax or a witch hunt and, of course, his firing comey which is central to all of what he did after he demanded loyalty in that kind of pattern and wanted him to go light on flynn. So it is all part of a pattern. And the most recent report adds very strong powerful evidence to the obstruction case. Jeff sessions, who has given has given an interview to muellers investigations, attorney general of the United States sitting for an interview into a criminal investigation into the white house, do you have confidence that he has safeguarded the independence of the department of justice or have you lost that confidence . I had no confidence from the very start of his tenure. I voted against him. I was one of the first Judiciary Committee members to say that i would oppose his nominations and then raised the issue of his untruthful testimony before the Judiciary Committee and his need to come back and explain that testimony about his meetings with the Russian Ambassador. He is linked in so many ways to this case, his contacts with the Russian Ambassador, while he was involved in a campaign. Then as a senator. Now as attorney general. His potential involvement in this coverup and all of these threads, these lines of liability, lead to the oval office. Thats the significance of the other Washington Post report that the special counsel now wants to interview the president , no question that that was predictable. But the timing may be a little bit different. May not come right away. Youre absolutely right to raise that question. Senator Richard Blumenthal, thank you for your time tonight. Thank you. More on the russia investigation. Im joined by se ri hurwitz who covers the Justice Department for the Washington Post and paul butler, msnbc legal analyst. Se ri, let me start with you. How unusual is Something Like that to bring the new acting director in and just say, who did you vote for in the first meeting . Well, its obviously highly unusual. He talked to mccabe, what we are reporting tonight is that the president asked the number two person in the fbi, andy mccabe, who he voted for but he also brought up contributions to his wifes campaign in virginia. You know, andy mccabe has been under pressure, so has the fbi director, chris wray, from the white house, from sessions. Chris wray, weve written this story also, the fbi director has been under pressure to get rid of andy mccabe and to put other people who are not connected to former director comey. We have a story today that he is bringing in a new chief for his office, a chief of staff. A new general counsel, and of course, we know that andy mccabe is leaving. Youre going to be seeing a lot of new faces at the fbi and this is directly because of pressure from the Justice Department and from the white house. Paul, you shook your head vigorously no when i asked about how appropriate or inappropriate how nush it is to come out and ask the fbis second in command that question. Why . You know, chris, ive never seen anything like this. All of todays developments are breathtaking. We have the attorney general and former director of the fbi as witnesses in a criminal investigation against the president of the United States. And we know that President Trump has this pattern of making inappropriate overtures to people who are overseeing investigations of him. Its not just today, Deputy Director mccabe. It was former fbi director comey. It was the National Intelligence chiefs and it was attorney general sessions. The main question for mueller now is that its clear that the president has tried to impede the investigation. The issue is whether hes country or whether hes clueless. Sari, what is your reporting saying about what the department of justice is like right now. The times reports after comey testified youve got sessions asking for a negative story every day. And then two, the fact that he is he was putting pressure on wray directly to get rid of mccabe which again, makes it look like the attorney general is acting as a very squirly as a kind of defacto tool of the white house here. Right. We dont know a lot of whats going on behind the scenes with the attorney general. But you know, its highly unusual. He is the only cabinet member that has been interviewed by special counsel mueller. It went on for several hours. As you said earlier, is he so key because there are sort of two prongs of the mueller investigation. One is the possible coordination between Trump Campaign officials and the russians. And the other, of course, is the question of obstruction. He n. O. W. Im sure was questioned about both issues. He was very involved in the firing of director comey who at that point was overseeing the russia investigation. He met with him beforehand, he and rod rosenstein, met with the president before he fired him. He sent over a memo along with the Deputy Attorney generals long moorm to trump. So you know, there are a lot of around the whole obstruction of justice issue and that is something that special counsel mueller wanted to talk to him about. Paul, the facts that we already know that have sort of been established and in some cases not even disputed in any real way, show the president is doing a lot of things over the department of justice with this investigation. Hes nudging it, hes pushing it, hes pressuring it publicly for all the world to see on twitter. I guess your point about corrupt intent, at what the point does violating these norms of independence cross noose something more nefarious or more sinister . When go on and on as they seem to do with President Trump. With sessions, mueller has questions about him about collusion, the original subject of this investigation. Sessions ran the Trump Campaigns foreign policy. He conveniently forgot o forgot about his meetings with the russians which is why he had to recuse himself even though George Papadopoulos puts him at meetings at which russians and the specter of trump meeting with putin came up. Obstruction is the key with sessions. As sari said is, obstruction with regard to why he fired comey, why the president fired comey but also important questions about trump trying to get rid of sessions. First trying to not have him recuse himself and when sessions does appropriately recuse himself from the russian investigation, then trump wants to fire him. Thats all part of this pattern which i think again, leads rational investigators to start thinking less about cluelessness and more about a corrupt intent. Sari, is your reporting suggesting that theres any kind of legal restraint being offered on the president right now . I mean, its remarkable to me as your paper is reporting, that he would even say this to Andrew Mccabe, given the amount of scrutiny hesed you, given the legal liability hes exposed to in terms of james comey . Its astounding action to take to do that in a way you have to know will get out. Thats an interesting question. We are reporting tonight that trumps lawyers are negotiating, discussing with the special counsels team the idea of having an interview in the coming weeks. And whether that will be done facetoface or whether part of it will be written. And there are some people who are close to the president including roger stone but there are other who are advising him not to do this interview. Theres a lot of concern that he could cause more problems for himself legally because of things he may say. Liablous things he may say. Theres a lot of concern maybe he shouldnt sit down and do this interview. Thats being worked out right now. Paul, final question for you. You worked, if im not mistaken in Public Integrity when you were a prosecutor. Yes. You worked in Corruption Cases which meant public officials, Office Holders folks like that. Given that background, what is your thinking about what the approach is if and when the mueller team or mueller himself interviews the president of the United States . So you know, the president doesnt have a lot of Bargaining Power with how the interview goes. Mueller could always subpoena him and then he has to come and testify. His only way of getting out of it would be to claim the fifth amendment which politically would be untenable i think or he could continue these bogus claims of executive privilege. Thats just not going to fly. I think the terms of the bargain will be how long the length of the interview, bill clinton got ken starr to agree to only four hours. The subject. So i think mueller will insys on collusion questions and obstruction questions but probably not agree not to ask any questions about money laundering. The courthouse or white house venue. It looks like it might be the white house. If you lie under oath or not under oath talking to the fbi, its still a crime. Michael flynn found that out the hard way. Great to have you both. I want to bring in legal analyst ben wittes, the editorinchief of law fair. Daily in gran shoe lar fashion, youre someone who has written a lot about what you see as sort of attacks on the integrity of Law Enforcement of the fbi. Of comey and folks around him. I want to first start just your reaction to the president of the United States asking Andrew Mccabe who did you vote for and asking him about his wifes campaign contribution. After i pulled my chin off the floor jokes aside, i think its important to start with just a sense of how outlying this behavior is. You simply do not ask a career fbi agent involved in political investigation, investigation of politically loaded things whom he voted for. Its like asking him to watch pornography with you or something. Its so outrageously inappropriate. And its so defiant of the entire culture of the fbi. And i its breathtaking. Mccabe, of course, is one of several individuals in the bureau, comey, of course, beak the chief among them who was fired. But then other investigators and investigators who worked on this case who have come in as to be kind of targets of the president and the president s allies as essentially corrupt operators who have a hatchet out for donald trump who the are clinton hacks and who have been attempting to bring down the president nefariously. Theres been a lot of pushing of that story, if you watched trump tv, there was the texts between two investigators who are having an affair. Where do you think that is going . Well, it is an endless circle of attempts to distract from the issue. You know, sometimes its the Text Messages and sometimes its the steele dossier and sometimes its noneness memo which nobodys actually seen or at least the underlying information and sometimes its pizza gate. Its this random collection of things that may distract some very large number of people from the actual issue at stake, which is a very serious set of investigations of the president s campaign, of its interactions with a foreign intelligence actor that does not have u. S. Interests at heart, of the criminal behavior of certain People Associated with the campaign and the administration, and of the president s own interactions with his Law Enforcement and intelligence apparatus of which this latest disclosure about his conversation with andy mccabe is the latest example. I want you to, if you can stick around, i want to bring in one of the reporter whos broke that story we were just telling you about on then acting director Andrew Mccabe. Devlin, you published it the moment i was getting on air. Can you tell me the timing and the circumstances under which mccabe gets called to the white house and this meeting happens . Sure. So it happens at a really key time in the course of events last year. Thats shortly after james comeys fired as the director of the fbi. And mccabe goes to the white house were told that he speaks to the president in the oval office and in that ha conversation, one of the things that the president asks is, how did you vote for . And were told mccabe demurred on that and says i didnt vote in the last election. Then the president proceeds to essentially speak critically of mccabes wife who had run as a democrat in a state legislative race in 2015. And thats always bothered the president. He has complained about that since the campaign. And its clear that as tense as that moment was and as high as the stakes were, that is still something that the president has never let go of and is just frankly constantly critical of mccabe. We should say that that story about mccabes wifes run for office and, of course, all sorts of people in this world have all sorts of spouse who have all sorts of political views zing from their spouses as you may know, that story has been a very common theme on trump tv. Theyve run with that a lot. My question to you is, are the public criticisms of mccabe that emanate from the president which do happen, those are after this meeting is what youre saying . After and before. I mean, so this comes in may of 2016 just after comey has been fired. And by that point, you know, the president has criticized mccabe pretty regularly on the campaign trail, once in office, but its interesting, one of the things were told is that the president complains whether mccabes in the room or not, the president complains on a near daily basis about andy mccabe. He seems to have a bit of fixation and it seems to again, were told by people who speak to him, intensely dislike Andrew Mccabe. That frankly, has really bothered a lot of people in the fbi. Do you have any sense of what mccabes reaction was to this happening . Well, i think hes uncomfortable. Hes concerned about it. Hes uncomfortable about it. Anyone who has been in government for any significant period of time will tell you this is not the way conversations are supposed to go in the government. Thats one of the questions you know, who you voted for that youre not supposed to ask of people in almost any situation. And you know, i also think, frankly, at that particular moment, its particularly challenging because mccabe is the acting director, his boss has just been fired by the president and theres obviously a lot of tension about that. Right. And about where the russia investigation may go. Ben, you talked about picking your jaw off the floor. I think someone as sort of embed in the world of the fbi and Justice Department as you are find this question so horrifying. Any other reactions to in this as it might pertain to subsequent criticisms that the connection to the comey firing, et cetera . Well, so one important knewance here that is that it puts a really interesting light on what i cant reconstruct the exact sequence of events here. But remember that comeyy is fired at the beginning of the week, and at the end of that same week, i believe, mccabe goes up and testifies in front of congress. Correct, yes. And in that testimony, contradicted the white house spokeswoman Sarah Huckabee sanders about the fbi being in turmoil and gave a quite spirited defense of the fbi and also of its relationship with the c director who are just been fired. So one interesting question is when in relation to that testimony did this meeting with trump take place. In other words, was this if the meeting with trump was before that, then that makes that testimony even more kind of defiant and courageous. If the meeting with trump is after it, think how uncomfortable that must have been for the new acting director having just gone up to congress and publicly contradicted the white house to then have the president of the United States ask him whom he voted for and harang him over his wifes political affiliation and campaign contributions. Final question for you, ben, do you think mueller want to talk to andy mccabe given the fact we know he is actively looking at the question of obstruction . So i assume, look, with the obstruction investigation, there are four bodies of information. One there are all the people at the fbi who know anything. Andy mccabe is certainly one of those people. Number two, theres all the documents at the fbi. Number three, all the people at the white house who know anything. Right. Number four, theres all the documents at the white house. Those are your four bodies of information. And i assume that bob mueller will be exhaustive in examining all of all four pieces, bodies of information. And that would mean at some point interviewing andy mccabe. Devlin barrett who broke the story and ben wittes of law fare, many thanks to to you both. Still ahead, Chuck Schumer takes the wall off the table in any deal with donald trump and how democrats may have grabbed the political high ground op immigration for the on coming daca fight. Well talk about that ahead. 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One of the most dangerous places for border crossings in this country is the Sonoran Desert in southwest arizona. Humanitarian organizations have been known to leave out bottles of water so that migrants attempting to cross there do not die of 30s which is something that happens fairly frequently. But in these images, those gallon bottles of water are being kicked and destroyed by agents. The images ranging from 2010ing to 2017 documented by a group called no more deaths. A good shot. Somebody left it on the trail. Not yours, is it . All you have to do is tell me. Is it yours . Not yours. Youre not going to tell me, huh. Volunteers for these groups according to the report found that the water containers were vandalized about twice a week over an 800 square mile swathe of the desert affecting more than 3500 gallons of water. Hours of after that report was released a volunteer for one of the humanitarian groups was arrested. His arrest last week came after Border Patrol agents conducted surveillance on a building where two immigrants were given beds and clean clothes. An activist did not accuse authorities of retaliation but said we see it as criminalization of aid workers. If it seems shocking that humanitarian aid, bottles of water in the middle of the desert so people dont die, if it seems shocking that would be a target under the guise of border security, an youre not alone in thinking that. All over the country right now, people are being rounded up to the disappointment of communities that think of them as americans. Like the polish doctor who lived in michigan since he was brought here at age 5. I. C. E. Detained him based on two misdemeanor convictions from 26 years ago. As this happenses in communities across america, it is becomes clearer and clearer the politics of this issue are not on the side of the immigration hard liners. Something that will be a crucial thing for democrats and republicans to understand as they head into the next phase of this fight. That is next. We use our phones and computers the same way these days. So why do we pay to have a phone connected when were already paying for internet . Shouldnt it all just be one thing . Thats why Xfinity Mobile comes with your internet. You can get 5 lines of talk and text included at no extra cost. So all you pay for is data. Choose by the gig or unlimited. And ask how to get a 150 prepaid card when you buy a new lg x charge. Its a new kind of network designed to save you money. Call, visit, or go to xfinitymobile. Com protesters on capitol hill today rallied to support dreamers and slammed Senate Democrats who voted to ends the Government Shutdown before getting a deal on daca. Now the narrative push by the white house is that democrats caved because they overplayed their hand politically. Today we learned Chuck Schumer has withdrawn his offer to fund a border wall in negotiations with the president as one of the things they struck a deal on on friday. The polling seems to show this isnt the republican victory the white house would have you believe. An nbc news surveymonkey poll found 56 blamed trump or republicans for the shutdown. 36 blamed democrats and congress. Perhaps more significantly, a morning poll found support for daca increases as the brief standoff wore on. 42 said a little to protect dreamers was worth a Government Shutdown. After, 47 said it was worth the Government Shutdown. Victoria, how do you read the politics of the shutdown are one thing in the brief period of who had the upper hand. But when you put aside the shutdown, how do you read Public Opinion on the specific issue of d. R. E. A. M. Ers right now . When it comes to d. R. E. A. M. Ers, have you anywhere between twothirds to threequarts of the population saying we support them, think they should stay here. Theyre innocent kids. They didnt have any say coming here. Thats one number i want you to keep in mind. Thats positive. That says this is going to give us capital to have a deal. But then i look at the numbers from that same nbc surveymonkey poll that says 81 of americans oppose a Government Shutdown, that gives me pause. Even though you have americans supporting d. R. E. A. M. Ers, they dont like the idea of the shutdown. Thats where i start to get nervous. Thats where i think if were going to have daca in a permanent solution to daka, not temporary fixes, coming every couple months but a permanent solution, i think Chuck Schumer has to put the wall back on the table. So its interesting. You saw congressman luis gutierrez, a bunch of people said fine. You took the daca hostages. You wanted a daca for wall deal. And even though mexico was supposed to pay for it, now the american tax irwill pay it, youre saying now basically democrats should say how much do you want for your wall . Well write you the chick and give us a permanent solution to d. R. E. A. M. Ers. I am. Its an expensive useless toy but its this tantrum donald trump is having. He launched his campaign in the summer of 2015 based on the wall. Its his pride and joy. Having that wall. But you know what . At the end of the day, the cost of having that wall is minuscule compared to pushing close to one million d. R. E. A. M. Er youths into the shadows. 90 . Go ahead. I was just going to say, these are kids employed paying taxes. If we take them out of our economy, well have a multibillion dollar hit to our economy. It doesnt seem like the wall for d. R. E. A. M. Ers is still on the table. It seems theyve moved the goal post. We want to completely overhaul American Immigration to get rid of familyreunification. Do you think they should take that deal. Theyre trying to go back to the quota laws. My hope here is that youre going to have those moderate republicans pull it back. Theyre talking about e verify and very strict internal enforcement. At the end of the day, those republicans in agricultural heavy industries know that you cannot go there and still have our industries survive without immigrant labor. So i think that that is going to be at least i hope that is going to be the force that reins in the far right of the republican party. Put the wall back on the table. They are as of yet unreined in. Theyve got an 11year winning streak of vetoing anything. Thank you. How are evangelical leaders reacting to the president s alleged affair with an adult film actress . Apparently they give him a mulligan. And the cabinet member reportedly sleeping on the job in tonights thing 1, thing 2, next. Happy anniversary dinnedarlin can this much love be cleaned by a little bit of dawn ultra . Oh yeah one bottle has the grease cleaning power of three bottles of this other liquid. A drop of dawn and grease is gone. Hi, im the internet you knoarmless bowling. Lt . Ahhhhhhhh you know whats easy . Building your website with godaddy. Get your domain today and get a free trial of gocentral. Build a better website in under an hour. Thing 1 tonight, remember when commerce secretary wilbur ross wore a pair of 500 custom made velvet slippers with the Commerce Department logo to the president s address to Congress Last year or when he described an manner air strike on syria as after dinner entertainment or when he seemed thrilled that a trip to saudi arabia with the president was not met by protests. The other thing that was fascinating me, there was not a single hint of a protester anywhere there during the whole time we were there. Not one guy with a bad placard. Secretary ross, that may be not necessarily because they dont have those feelings but because they dont allow people to exfres their feelings the same as we do here. In theory that could be true. In theory, yes, in practice protesting is a crime pub nishable by up to death in saudi arabia. All that happened in 2017 when ross was seemingly the apple of trumps eye. This year according to a source ross has reportedly fallen asleep at every meeting but that he drools and uses his tie to clean it up. Now the president is unimpressed. Thats thing 2 in 60 seconds. I spoke with the president about it directly this morning. He has 100 confidence in secretary ross. He loves wilbur. Thinks hes doing a great job and has been a strong advocate for the administration. He loves wilbur. Who doesnt . White House Press Secretary Sarah Huckabee sanders pushed back yesterday on a report the president has lost faith in with you ber ross partly because he keeps falling asleep in meeting. And that hell never again trust the 80yearold to be his killer negotiator. Today the Washington Post blew the whistle on ross in a tweet for being a no show at his davos panel this morning on Global Manufacturing to which 91yearold former congressman john dingell replied somebody go wake him up. To be fair, his propensity for dozing off is not just for meetings. He was caught cat napping during the president s speech. In his defense, he was up pretty late the night before. A quick reminder now about a story that is not the biggest story of the country. The president of the United States allegedly had an encounter with an adult film actress. While his newborn son was 3 months old. Right before election the soon to be president s lawyer allegedly paid adult film actress 130,000 not to reveal the encounter. You dear viewer can draw your own conclusions. Daniels detailed the encounter in detail in a 2011 interview published last week. And now common cause filed a complaint arguing an alleged payment to her may have violated Campaign Finance laws. You might think reports the president s lawyer paid off an adult film actress to cover up an adultrous sexual encounter would give pause to the evangelical supporters. You would be wrong. Heres the heads of the Family Research council. What about porn star stuff . You get a mulligan you. Get a do over. I an mulligan for 70 years of his life. Hey. Why evangelicals can cant quit trump and how they rationalize it right after this. President donald j. Trump is a man i admire. Two core. Its good to have you here with us. You inspire us all. Inspiring. Despite having been married three times and a tenuous grasp of scripture. Donald trump enjoyed strong support from white e van gel evangelical leaders. Did he have an affair . I have no clue. I believe at 70, the president is a muchdifferent person today than he was four years ago, five years ago, ten years ago, whatever. I dont think its hypocritical because hes a flawed man for me to support him and pray for him. Im a flawed person and i would hate for people to see all of the baggage i have in my life. Does this give you pause at all . Only if the president , i think hes maturing as president and back to what we said earlier, i think from a human being standpoint, from a spiritual standpoint, hes maturing, as well. If the president were to all of a sudden, revert back to some of that behavior as president , the evangelical support will not be there for him. Yeah. So its based on, we gave him you get a do over here. Jennifer ruben, conservative columnist and chief washington correspondent, host of the off message pod cast. We heard him interviewing tony perkins and isaac, fascinating interview. Do you think his claim, i want to zero in on if he went back to this. Lets say Something Like this happened in the white house and evangelical support wouldnt be there. I dont believe him, do you . You could question whether that refers to the sexual proclivities of trump in the past. Lets look at the charlottesville incident where there were questions what kind of moral leadership is coming out of President Trump. Thats something as president that is after the point where a lot of evangelical leaders said they were not counting. What is the response there . He did not change the level of support among leaders for him and in fact, you see the strengthening of support among evangelical leaders that point to things like policy on abortion and the mexico city letter and say they are happy getting that and it means more to get that than immigration where you see evangelical leaders, including some on the Advisory Counsel saying that they are not happy with what is going on with the d. R. E. A. M. Ers. Yeah, its not particularly cristlike to dump water in the desert for people crossing the border. I dont think the analysis and judgment made by evangelical leaders is correct. There are two coalitions in American Life and they have put their chips in with one of those coalitions. They genuinely want to see abortion out lawed. They will support Supreme Court justices. They are making the calculations which coalition will save their interest. Thats right. You have to forget the notion they are religious or religiously motivated. They are obviously not. They dont care about the poor or issues with health care or religious leaders would be. Also endorsed ray moore, the alleged child molester. Lets put aside the hope these people are religious. Youre right, its transaction. They have their list of demands. They dont like gays or abortion and hell channel the issues they need. The hypocrisy, of course, they have used moral issues, family values against every democrat, against every republican they never liked but for trump, they would give him a pass. There is sort of, there is data here to back that up. This is where there is something remarkable happening. This is polling. Can an official behave ethically and fulfill dutys . This is just seven years 2011, only 30 of evangelicals say yes. Now 72 yes. There is an absolutely complete change in the attitudes about personnel morality of the personal leaders. I dont think its the passage of time to answer that. What youre seeing is a political calculations made about President Trump, and look, as jennifer was saying, this is a calculations and to your point, right, there are two coalitions here, republicans and democrats going to do better with republicans. What surprises a lot of people about evangelicals is they say its based in morality they have their position. Its not based on politics. Not based on partisan warfare and they get into a tricky spot. It forces them to say things like hes a godly man. Whatever you think of donald trump, you know thats not the case. One of the things that struck me, chris, in the interview i did with perkins and i would really it was i should say this about every pod cast i do but this was particularly interesting. Towards the end of it he said look, weve been beaten down by obama and the left for so long, we feed a schoolyard bully to punch people in the face. I said what about turn the other cheek . He said, well, you only have two cheeks and that is explaining a lot of what is going on here. There is such a level of grievance and frustration of where things are, they are ready to go beyond. Jennifer, relative to political powerfulness. Right. They are a diminishing share of the electret and the population. White evangelical christians are for the first time not a majority. Isaac is right. They are not religious leaders but grievance. They feel this put upon discriminated against, angry sentiment that their fellowship voices, they dont like being displaced for a position of authority and society. They think women, they think immigrants, they think gays are somehow displacing them, taking what is rightfully theirs and these people are out to claim it. They believe and some really interesting polling, they think that they are the victims, not african americans, not guys in terms of discrimination in america. Thats how twisted it is. Thank you both for being with me tonight. Thank you, chris. That is all in for this evening. Breaking tonight on the russia front, the news that Jeff Sessions and james comey have both spoken to muellers team. The New York Times reporter who broke this story here live with us tonight. Plus new indications that mueller is looking to talk to trump himself about the firings of flynn and comey. And a new report tonight that trump asked his fbi director who he voted for back in 2016, a conversation the career Civil Servant and lifelong veteran found disturbing. As the 11th hour gets underway on a tuesday night. Good evening to you once again from our nbc headquarters in new york. This was day 369 of the Trump Administration and tonight we have a new report of the mueller investigation