Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20170704

Obstruction of justice. How america learns about this major scandal as the white house shrinks from public scrutiny. All in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. This president tells so many lies so oven that news organizations are now employing entire teams of Fact Checkers to document them for posterity. And because it is so hard to get the simple and most basic truth from the administration, much of what we now know only came to light in spite of the white house. Take for instance the saga of Michael Flynn. The first inkling there was something sketchy about the trump Foreign Policy adviser and his relationship with russia came a year ago through Republican National convention when yahoo news chief investigative correspondent pressed flynn on a trip he took to moscow for the 10th anniversary of r. T. Were you paid for that event . You would have to ask the folks i went over there to no, im asking you. You would know if you were paid . Yeah, i went over there as a speaking event. It was a speaking event. Then one week before the inauguration, the Washington Post reported the very same day president obama sanctioned russia for interfering in the election according to a u. S. Governor officials flynn phoned kiss lee yak several times. What did he say or undercut sanctions. The white house denied it. They went on National Television to say flynn had not talked sanctions. Hours after Michael Flynn was sworn in as National Security adviser, the wall street journal reported Counter Intelligence agents were investigating his communications with russia. A few weeks later the Washington Post said contrary to the whaus denials, he ask discuss it. Trump pled ignorance. Before you were inaugurated about sanctions. Ill look into that. Then the final hammer. The Washington Post reported the Justice Department warned the white house weeks before that flynn wasnt telling the truth and could therefore be vulnerable to russian black machlt just hou mail. Hours after that report broke flynn was fired. The administration did nothing, despite the fact they knew it, until details of flynns contact with russia became public. Public scrutiny played a role a few months later when President Trump decided to fire comey while his campaign was under investigation. The country only found out what was actually going on through the news media. Absolutely explosive news out of washington tonight. The president of the United States firing the man who is leading the investigation into possible collusion between the government of russia and his own president ial campaign. After the news broke this afternoon, the New York Times Michael Schmidt reported the white house and department of justice had been working on firing comey since at least last week, adding that attorney general Jeff Sessions had been working to come up with reasons. Schmidt also reporting comey only learned of his firing as he addressed fbi employees in l. A. When tv screens in the background flashed news of the firing. According to the Washington Post report based on interviews with 30 sources, comey, trump figure willed, was using the russia probe to become a martyr, to a president obsessed with loyalty, according to New York Times, comey was a rogue operator who could not be trusted as the fbi investigated russian ties to his campaign. In an interview with lester holt today the president himself explicit ling linked comeys firing to the russia investigation. When i decided to do it, i said to myself, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a madeup story, it is an excuse by the democrats for having lost an election that they should have won. The New York Times reporting that when the president met with russian officials in the Oval Office Last week, the president told the russian officials, i just fired the head of the fbi, he was crazy, a real nut job. I faced great pressure because of russia, thats taken off. I take the president at his word that i was fired because of the russia investigation. Something about the way i was conducting it the president felt created pressure on him he wanted to relieve. But i watched his interview, i read the press accounts of his conversations, so i take him at his word there. We had a very nice dinner, and at that time he told me, you are not under investigation, which i knew anyway. We have some breaking news about that dinner that donald trump had with nowformer fbi director james comey. New york times citing conversations had comey had, the dinner began the small talk but the president turned the conversation to whether mr. Comey would pledge his loyalty to him. Breaking news tonight, a blockbuster report from the New York Times. Since confirmed by nbc news, that the president of the United States asked thenfbi director james comey to end the bureaus investigation of Michael Flynn according to a memo written by comey. We have absolutely massive breaking news tonight. The Washington Post reporting that special Counsel Robert Mueller is now investigating the president of the United States for possible obstruction of justice. We here have lost count with the number of breaking news alert about the president and the obstruction and russia investigation and not even six months into this administration. Joining me, political reporter of the New York Times, Jason Johnson, pot ticks editor, and from washington d. C. , michael issikoff, and Michael Schmidt. Michael in d. C. , let me start with you. Michael, you are a veteran investigation, i remember reading your report, the Bush Administration broke important stories and have been doing it for a while. I want to get a sense of context for comparison. It is always hard to report on power. It is always hard to report with anonymous sources. It seems like Something Different with this administration because the stories are so explosive and the credibility of the official voices are so low, it really feels like youre groping around a room blind. Is that how you feel . Does it feel different than other administrations . Well, it is hard to say. I mean first of all we have the advantage of President Trumps constant tweets, which have done as much to drive this investigation and give us the inner thinking of the president , which is something weve never had before. Were like patched into his brain basically. Yeah, right. And so if you think of all of the sort of pivot points youre highlighting there, the firing of comey, the asking him to shut down the investigation, much of this sort of generates out of actions hes taken, interviews hes given and tweets hes made. So i think thats a good point. Actually an asset weve had. But in terms of getting to the bottom of the real story and the facts, yeah, theres so much we dont know. You know, so much we have yet to learn. Michael schmidt, it also seems to me that youre tiptoeing through a land mile, particularly some of the reporting you have done. You have got anonymous sources, former and current senior officials obviously theyre not going on the record. If you get it wrong you have given ammunition to a president who says the reporting on this story in particular is a hoax and conspiracy to bring him down. It does seem like every day you are taking your journalistic life in your hands in that respect. I think thats true. One of the biggest difficulties is the fact that so much of this information is classified. It is also very confusing stuff. It is stuff about meetings between Trump Associates in russia, it is about things that russia did to the United States. These are complex things that even if they were on the record would be difficult for us to unpack on the reporting side, and then on the explaining side to the reader. So in many ways youre sort of on a high wire here where you are, you know, trying to find out about classified information from folks who dont want to talk on the record about it, and it can be very difficult and very challenging. To your point, the partisan flames on this story are very fierce. So any story that you do will be seen certainly by one side, you know, differently than the other, and that can really, really engulf things. I want to talk about sort of process here, because i think one of the things that ive found astounding about watching all of this develop is when youre a reporter, a, youre skeptical of people in power, right . You get lied to all the time. I remember the first time i got lied to by an alderman, he looked me in the face and lied. I was like, he just lied to me. It is a radicalizing, important moment in the trajectory of being a reporter, right . You always care it carry it with you. Statement you develop relationships of the rest where you can go to them and say, am i wrong, where are we on this . That relationship for trust is so gone here, seriously, that everyone is floating in a dark ocean where theres nothing to anchor or moor you against the crazy information. It is breaking down for a few reasons, right . One is that the normal information process in the white house is breaking down. Totally. His own staff isnt always in the loop on things. Which is hugely important. Even if you develop a relationship of trust with someone in the white house, they may not know anything. Right. And the second thing is theres so much factionalism in the white house people are constantly selling stories against their own inside the white house. This is not unusual, but it is to this extent. Weaponized. Finally you have the overlay of the fact people inside the bureaucracy are simply not trustful of people in charge of the bureaucracy, so theres a relationship between the press and people deep inside as basically an alternative to the normal oversight process that has broken down. Not even just not trust full, you talk to enough people and you will find people find elements of the administration to be dangerous. A lot of the leaks you are getting people in the bureaucracy. Exactly. You could not normally drag information out of these quarters of the government, but they see their own administration as dangerous so theyre giving information zbll which. Which is a great irony. It is more secretive that most any other, but on the other hand we know more than ever before. On one hand we know who hates each other presumably. Weve learned when theres been various blowups, people screaming at each other. But theres also theres both kind of theres certain people who speak without regard to the truth and others who are so deliberately manipulative of the truth. You see reporting about this, where they will put things out there that arent true either just for fun or just to get reporters when they report on something incorrectly. So theres a sense everyone is walking through a hall of mirrors all the time, right . And this kind of war on the nature of empirical reality is something that youve seen with elements of the right for, you know, decades and which has now reach this kind of well, you made an important point about this sort of booby trapping. I think it is an important thing to understand here, intentional intents to get false stories printed. Im going to talk about that. Were going to talk about governing in the dark, how this white house shrinks from governing. Harvoni is a revolutionary treatment for the most common type of chronic hepatitis c. Its been prescribed to more than a quarter million people. And is proven to cure up to 99 of patients who have had no prior treatment with 12 weeks. Certain patients can be cured with just 8 weeks of harvoni. Before starting harvoni, your doctor will test to see if youve ever had hepatitis b, which may flare up and cause serious liver problems during and after harvoni treatment. Tell your doctor if youve ever had hepatitis b, a liver transplant, other liver or kidney problems, hiv or any other medical conditions and about all the medicines you take including herbal supplements. Taking amiodarone with harvoni can cause a serious slowing of your heart rate. Common side effects of harvoni include tiredness, headache and weakness. Ready to let go of hep c . Ask your hep c specialist about harvoni. You. Smells fine, but yourin your passengers smell this bell dinging new febreze car with Odorclear Technology cleans away odors. For up to 30 days smells nice. Breathe happy, with new febreze. Thats why at comcast were continuing to make4 7. Our services more reliable than ever. Like technology that can update itself. An advanced fibernetwork infrustructure. New, more Reliable Equipment for your home. And a new culture built around customer service. It all adds up to our most Reliable Network ever. One that keeps you connected to what matters most. Secrecy is now the Standard Operating Procedure in the trump administration. The white house visitors log to president s tax returns kept under lock and key. The White House Press briefings have become less frequent and televised. Since june, held one per week, down from several a week in previous months. When reporters complain, the administration stone walls. Can you tell us why you turned the cameras off . Why are they off. It is a legitimate question. You are a taxpayer funded. Trite. Of the United States government. Can you at least give us an explanation as to why the cameras are off . Can we get this out of the way . Can we address the cameras issue. Yeah, some days we will have them, some days they wont. The president is going to speak today from the rose garden. I want the president s voice to carry the day. Look, this is nothing inconsistent from what we said from day one. Miguel goldberg and Michael Isikoff and Michael Schmidt. Jason, things have happened, have been squeedsed. State department, which is a huge deal for the rest of the world, Daily Briefing where the indonesian press and saudi press, thats been put on the shelf. All of these official modes of communication squeezed. It is all back channel stuff, and then that back channel stuff is easier to booby trap or weaponize and leave people in a false direction. We used to think the worse situation was a house of card, ail take a drink when youre right. You figure it is, okay, it is going to be hard to get information but the information is legitimate. When you have different factions in the white house who are trying to make you look bad right. Reporters have to worry about being weaponized against who they work for. Thats right. It is like, im going to use you to take down the New York Times, im going to use you to take down cnn. It is not a verbal war against the pret, it is an intellectual war against the press by the administration. Michael schmidt, as an Investigative Reporter do you feel you have found yourself amidst bobby traps essentially . I dont think it is that much im not covering the white house itself on a daytoday basis. We are trying to get at the story of the Mueller Investigation and what mueller has found and are there connections between Trump Associates and russia. Thats, you know, sort of an old school, you know, classified information that were going at, but going at as hard as we can. To your point, the this on the other side of the argument is the president has done a lot of interviews, i dont have the number, but he has problem done more interviews in the first several months of his time in the office than any other president , and thats been interesting because you get to see, as you pointed out, through the tweets sort of an unvarnished, you know, president s thoughts out there on a repeated basis. Thats been interesting. Thats true, but theres been a bit of a change. The president has traditionally been extremely accessible. During the campaign probably the most accessible who efrp campaigned in the modern era, absolutely. No question about that. Calling in to show after show. He has often given one full press conference. He has done two and twos with foreign leaders. And, Michael Isikoff, he has given interviews, but since the lester holt interview where he basically admit ted reason he fired james comey, it has really only been fox he has given interviews to. Theres been a real change in the last bit of time about the accessibility of the president himself. No, i would agree with that. You know, a lot of these interviews are Fox Interviews where he doesnt get challenged, where he doesnt get pushback. The fact that theres been only one press conference, and not for a while, means that opportunities to ask him really tough, important questions, you know, we havent had. I should also just point out that some of the rhetoric here is is pretty disturbing. I remember being at the cpac conference back in february where he was using the enemy of the people line, which, you know, is a line that has historical resonance and is, you know, to demonize the press as the enemy of the people. It is something that is rhetoric i dont think weve seen before and is noteworthy. What do you think about that, Michael Schmidt . Well, he has demonized the press, but it is interesting how much time he spends obsessing about the suppress. It is a central paradox, that theres a great someone tweeted this the other day, someone noted that he went out and gave a speech where he talked about how terrible the press was i think it was in iowa, he was doing one of the Campaign Rallies snf s and we back and talked off the record to the pool for 30 minutes, which is sort of Donald Trumps relationship to the media in a nutshell, michael. So is he using the press as a diversion to demonize the press, and then hes obsessing about the press . It seems like he spends so much of his morning and maybe the rest of his day, you know, looking at the morning shows, tweeting about them, criticizing our coverage, demonizing us. It is interesting how much time and energy he has focused on this one issue. If you talk to white house officials they will tell you it is because of the russia stuff, they see the russia stuff as a cloud and hes trying to push back on that. But at the same time his criticisms in the media go far beyond that. Well, and hes also i mean as a sort of matter of buy logic biographical matter about the man, he has been obsessed with the press and press coverage from the moment that he first started appearing on the tabloids. Sort of you hate the thing you love. If you think about what donald trump has been successful in his life, it hasnt been real estates, it hasnt been casinos, its been working the new york media. The new york tabloid press was the thing he was good about, getting them to write about donald trump, who donald trump is dating, planting stories, using a fake name and pretending to be his publicly cyst. You finds himself in a position where he cannot get the press to talk about him or shine him in a blowing light, and he is clearly frustrated about it. His biographer once reported he saved a clipping from the first time he made the papers when he was actually a kid, he was quoted in a paper and he saved it. He remembered that moment and the power of the moment. The story says he finds his usual relationship has been short circuited and he craves validation from the press and he has all his life and he is not getting it. Thats one of the reasons it leads to the leaks hes complaining about. People in the white house say, he wont listen to us, we have to leak it so he will pay attention. Right. Michael isikoff and Michael Schmidt, thank you for your time tonight. Appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Still ahead, a concrete reminder of why it is important to ask the president the hard questions. The most significant interview of Donald Trumps young presidency next. What do hospitals use to wash and protect it . Johnsons® the number 1 choices in hospitals. If youve got a life, you gotta swiffer with my moderate to severe crohns disease,. I kept looking for ways to manage my symptoms. I thought i was doing okay. Then it hit me. Managing was all i was doing. When i told my doctor,. I learned humira is for people who still have symptoms of moderate to severe crohns disease. Even after trying other medications. In clinical studies,. The majority of people on humira. Saw significant symptom relief. And many achieved remission. Humira can lower your ability. To fight infections, including tuberculosis. Serious, sometimes fatal infections and cancers, including lymphoma, have happened;. 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Instead of sticking to the line from his own white house that comey was fired because the brandnew Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein recommended it, the president , President Trump told lester hold firing the fbi director was his idea and he inadvertently revealed the real reason he did it. Look, hes a showboat, hes a gr grandstander. The fbi has been in turmoil. You know that, i know that, Everybody Knows that. You take a look at the fbi a year ago, it was in virtual turmoil, less than a year ago. It hasnt recovered from that. Monday you met with the Deputy Attorney general Rod Rosenstein. Right. Did you ask for a recommendation . What i did is i was going to fire comey, my decision. It was not you had made the decision before they came in the room . I was going to fire comey. Theres no good time to do it, by the way. But in your letter you said i accepted their recommendation. Well, they also you had already made the decision . I was going to fire regard lls of recommendation. He made a recommendation. Hes highly respect, very good guy, very smart guy. The democrats like him, the republicans like him. He had made a recommendation. But regard lls less of recommen i was going to fire comey knowing there was no good time to do it. In fact, when i decided to just do it, i said to myself, i said, you know, this russia thing with trump and russia is a madeup story, it is an excuse by the democrats for having lost an election that they should have won, and the reason they should have won it is the Electoral College is almost impossible for a republican to win, it is very hard because you start off at such a disadvantage. So everybody was thinking they should have won the election. This was an excuse for having lost an selection. But are you angry with mr. Comey because of his russia investigation . I just want somebody thats competent. I am a big fan of the fbi. I love the fbi. Were you a fan of him taking the investigation. I love the people of the fbi. I think about the Hillary Clinton investigation . No, about the russia investigation and possible links between no, look, let me tell you, as far as im concerned i want that thing to be absolutely done properly. When i did this now, i said, i probably maybe will confuse people, maybe ill expand that you know, ill lengthen the time because it should be over, in my opinion it should have been over a long time ago because all it is is an excuse. But i said to myself, i meet even lengthen out the investigation, but i have to do the right thing for the american people. Hes the wrong man for that position. Let me ask you about your termination letter to mr. Comey. You write, i greatly appreciate you informing me on three separate occasions that i am not under investigation. Why did you put that in there . Because he told me that. I mean he told me that. He told you that you werent under investigation regarding the russia investigation . I heard that from others, i heard was it in a phone call, did you meet facetoface. We had dinner with him because he wanted to stay on. We ha nice dinner at the white house. He asked to stay on. The dinner was arrange willed. I think he asked for the dinner. He wanted to stay on as the fbi head. I said ill consider, well see what happens. We had a nice dinner and at that time he told me, youre not under investigation, which i knew anyway. That was one meeting. What was the other first of all, when youre under investigation youre given all sorts of documents. I knew i wasnt under. I heard it was stated at the committee, some Committee Level that i wasnt, number one. But that didnt come directly from him. Then during the phone call he said it and during another phone call he said it. Said it once at dinner and twice during phone calls. Did you call him . In one case i called him, in one case he called me. Did you ask him, am i under investigation . I asked him, yes. I said, if it is possible would you let me know am i under investigation . He said, you are not under investigation. But hes given sworn testimony that theres an Ongoing Investigation into the Trump Campaign and possibly collusion with the russian government. Right. You were the center piece of the Trump Campaign. Well, all i can tell you. Was he being truthful that you were not under investigation. I know im not under investigation, me personally. Im not talking about campaigns or anything else. I know im not under investigation. Did you ask him to drop the investigation . No, never. Did anyone from the white house no, in fact i want it speeded up. Did anyone from the white house ask him. No, not that i know of. Any surrogates from the white house . No. Look, i want to find out if there was a problem having to do with russia, or by the way anybody else, any other country, and i want that to be so strong and so good, and i want it to happen. We should note before Going Forward that a lot of what the president said in that interview simply is not true or has been contested by james comey under oath. But up next, how the fallout from that interview is still reverberating through the Russian Investigation and why the president hasnt sat down with anyone who isnt from the conservative media since that interview. We will be right back. Nick was born to move. Not necessarily after three toddlers with boundless energy. Lower back pain wont stop him from keeping up. Because at a dr. Scholls kiosk. He got a recommendation for our best custom fit orthotic to relieve his foot, knee, or lower back pain, from being on his feet, by reducing shock and stress on his body with every step. So look out world. Dads taking charge. Dr. Scholls. Born to move. I love you, basement guest bathroom. Your privacy makes you my number 1 place. To go number 2. I love you, but sometimes you stink. 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That was the moment now cited throughout the ongoing inquiries on capitol hill that President Trump admitted he fired the fbi director because of the russia investigation or at the very least had it in his mind when he did. Joining me from washingtoning ton d. C. , jennifer rubon, olivia nitzi, joy reed, Jason Johnson and michelle goldberg. Jennifer, that interview was a turning point because we have not had an interview with the president with a non i think this is correct, with a not fox outlet since then, not conservative, sort of friendly outlet since then. I think theres an awareness around the people around him, that they kind of cant let him go out there and talk anymore because there are actual legal ramifications at this point. Right, and it is not even that they will talk to anyone at fox. They wont talk to chris wallace, for example. They wont talk to brit baer who are news people. He is doing softball interviews going on again and again fox and friends and the dialogue goes, arent i swell and they say, yes, youre swell. Thats all he can handle at this point. One, i think theres the legal ramification and, two, he doesnt know what he is talking about. Someone is going to ask him a question, whats in the Health Care Bill. Thats right. Whats in the budget, why are you doing x, y and z, and he doesnt have an answer. So he cant go on a real interview. That second point, olivia, is the thing that im really obsessed with in the midst of this huge domestic priority, is the health care, an effort to reshape a huge part of it, an implication for tens of millions of americans. I want the president to do a press conference on health care and say, the ground rules are no russia questions, were just talking health care, stay on the substance of health care. I think everyone on the hill, republican and democrat, admit he would be totally incapable of doing that in any way. Right. What could go wrong if he did it from the white houses perspective . I think jennifer is absolutely right. He doesnt have the knowledge about, you know, what his own administration is doing to do an interview like that. I dont know whether or not hes aware of it. It is very difficult always to guess what the president is thinking, but i do it is very interesting because during the campaign, of course, he did do Many Television interviews, he did talk or attempt to talk about policy. But the difference is now hes walked himself into all of these different land mines and there are legal ramifications if he says something very wrong. So i think the white house has to be much, much more cautious than the campaign was. And theres also a difference between the campaign and being president because now theres an actual bill. Theres so much hand waving you can do on the campaign trail that you dont have to choose, but the bill tax will be the bill tax. The thing with trump is he enjoys doing interviews. He enjoys feeling important and having cameras on him, so it is probably difficult for him to stay away from doing that. Absolutely. He doesnt have the discipline to do it right now and im sure it is difficult for his team to convey to him it is not in his best interests. During the campaign he would say, nobodys going to have their medicare cut, were going to protect medicaid, were going to protect all ofness soci thes programs, were going to have lower premiums, lower deductibles. It didnt have to have a relationship to a tangible bill or tangible numbers. Now that theres a piece of legislation he has to answer for, thats completely incompatible with everything he promised the country. He cant talk about that. I mean and apparently i so desperately want him to. I honestly as a citizen, as a journalist, as an american, i want nothing more right now have to read it first. I dont think he has done it. It is a sign of how low standards have sunk. Thats right. It is hard for everybody to keep in their minds all the time how much weve lost as a country in these last few months. But one of the things we have lost is any expectation that the president would have even a bit of familiarity with it. Thats right. Imagine a functioning administration on communications. On earth to president rubio is making the rounds of the sunday shows, making the case for obamacare repeal, his tweets are about obamacare. He is working closely with the senate, their messages are coordinate it. That is how it normally works. Right. But at the same time though, if there was anything popular about obamacare repeal, trust me, donald trump would be out there selling it. I think the problem is that donald trump only knows how to cheer lead for things people already like. You know, he knows how to cheer lead for himself. By the way, this is not even his bill. This is donald trump making agreements to become president of the United States to get the republicans behind him. He agreed to give the right that wants to repeal obamacare, that was part of his stump speech, this is something Mitch Mcconnell and paul ryan have been dreaming b getting rid of the social net. Do you think marco rubio would sell it better than donald trump . It is an unpopular thing. Donald trump doesnt do olivia. Americans would still not want to lose their health care. I disagree. I think it is more the fact that donald trump is disinterested in policy for the most part. It is not as fun to talk about obamacare on twitter as it is to as it is to insult people or talk about television or whatever it is that hes thinking about. So i think maybe it is about his being unpopular, but also about the fact he doesnt care about the business of governing. Jennifer, thats the thing thats been so evident throughout, right . I mean there is a certain level i mean politicians vary on this. There are politicians who dont know policy at all, some know it quite well. I remember a moment actually in the republican primary debate when there was a battle about Defunding Planned Parenthood when all of the governors were like, oh, wow, they know what theyre talking about because they were in the weeds of how the funding works for their state and they can get into it, and donald trump is standing up there looking back and forth. Ultimately you wonder, i guess, how long you can skate on this, right . Like is there some time that you have to kind of how long can they hide him, i guess . Yeah. I think the time is about a month when the president is still going around and announcing cabinet positions. Now they have to keep him under wraps, which is bizarre. Thats not how our democracy is supposed to work. It is not how a president is supposed to put forth his agenda. To joys point, i think theres a lot of it, that the bill is incredibly bad, but it is a function of him. He doesnt know whats in it. He has no priorities. Right. He has no bottom lines. So they put together this mishmosh no one likes, even marco rubio couldnt sell it. I think, however, it is beginning finally to erode his base. You see his poll numbers coming down now, across the board in 30s. Were getting down to blood relatives and staff here, all but the completely cultist following has pretty much awakened. Thats true, although the aggregate numbers are in the 37, 38 , which is, you know depressing. Yeah. But he won with 44. 5 of the vote. So i mean it is not an outside the ballpark of people who voted for him. Up next, one branch of the news media has escaped the president s fake news label. How the right wing is covering President Trump now. E. X. T. We cant stay here why . Terrible toilet paper ill never get clean way ahead of you. Charmin ultra strong. It cleans better. Its four times stronger and. You can use less. Enjoy the go with charmin. How if guests book direct ater, choicehotels. Com and stay twice theyll get a 50 gift card . Summertime. Badda book. Badda boom. Got you a shirt . I kept the receipt. Book now at choicehotels. Com President Trump has wrapped up his intense nineday oversees International Voyage that by all accounts was a home run. Our commander in chief, the pillar of strength and a true advocate for america. Joining me now Jennifer Ruben still with me, Jennifer Ruben, michelle goldberg, Jason Johnson, olivia nuzzi. I have been fascinated how the media has dealt with in the past month or so, and one of the things i find interesting is the fact while the country has been you know, this Health Care Bill recently has consumed, they want nothing to do with it. It is really astounding when you think about it. Eight years of repeal and replace, tea party rallies let me just say, i have talked to conservative citizens, just random people who know a lot about obamacare. They have critiques of it that are quite sophisticated and have thought a lot about it and really, you know, dislike it, and here it is, the moment, the crowning achievement, victory, at the precipice of the grand, epic win, and hes silent. It is so fascinating. Jennifer, i want to you ask as someone who sort of comes from the world of conservatism, as an entity, like what is that about . I think it is two things. One is it is not going well. So if they cant say anything nice, they change the topic. Yeah, right. These people are cheerleaders. By the way, by right wing media, i think we should be specific, were talking about the fox hosts, we are talking about some of these blogs. There are conservative outlets, the Weekly Standard for example has done excellent reporting. It is not every conservative. I want to be true. You have people at the Weekly Standard, the washington examiner, phil klein is a Good Health Care reporter and all of these people are writing about it. If you go to their web sites, it is not leading, it is not dominating. I will say i lived through this on the other side at the nation magazine as a washington editor on the Affordable Care act, and that was at the top of the page, no one was burying the health care fight. People were really invested in that. You know, there are two things. Continue. There are two things. One is that it is not going well. The other is the not so secret truth is a lot of these very virulently antigovernment people dont understand it, dont know whats in it, dont know what it means. This is what happens when you become so antagonistic towards government, you dont know what is going on, you dont have facility of the information, so you go on to something you know, which is screaming at the liberal. It is a statement on the state of conservatism. Theres an element of that face here in that some of the conservative goals are, for example, higher deductibles. A lot of people who do Health Care Policy who believe higher deductibles will make people get less skin in the game, literally. They will use less health care, they will be more judicial. Right, approach it as consumers. That it will drive costs down. Nobody wants to make a public case for higher deductibles, which is part of this plan, particularly when theyve been complaining about high deductibles in obamacare for the last eight years. And this goes to what we were talking about with trump and his inability, whether it is rubio or not, he cant sell it or explain it. Hes your superstar but you have to hide him on defense, and thats what happens every single time. They know their biggest name cant Something Else is happening, which i think is about power and perceptions of power. Here is a movement that controls all branches of government. There are five appointed, republicanappointed and i will click over to fox and watch a fax news host leading their show interviewing a 19yearold freshman. And i think to myself, you guys, you have it. Youve got it. Youre running the country. You have to remember and the story about the obamas on vacation. I think the point is that it really wasnt about obamacare. The fact sits much easier for them to be the opposition, for them to be arguing in favor of donald trump against somebody else. But they dont have Hillary Clinton right now. So instead theyre going to talk about cnn. Theyre going to talk about msnbc. The liberal media. That is the enemy right now. They cant talk about something extremely unpopular to make it seem like donald trump is winning. When barack obama is the face of health care. Its easy to demonize. Its fundamentally easier to go to war to expand health care, to make that an open fight that youre proud of. I want to give more People Health care. This is a fundamental fight that the bottom line is we want fewer people to have medicaid. That is 72 million people. We want to take medicaid from them. Turn excite a block grant. The actual policies that conservatives have reason run on for decades is unpopular. One of the Amazing Things about where we stand is that the one person who figured this out is donald trump. Exactly. In the primaries. Realized that there was no constituency among the republicans for paul ryanism and here we are. Many thanks. Much more on the difficulties of covering a president who has only given one solo press conference in his entire presidency next. At johnsons we care about safety as much as you do. Thats why we meet or exceed 15 global regulations for baby products. And where standards differ, we always go with the toughest. Johnsons. We rbut we are not victims. Ack. We are survivors. We are survivors. We are survivors. And now we take brilinta. For people whove been hospitalized for a heart attack. 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If you cant afford your medication, astrazeneca. May be able to help. You. Smells fine, but yourin your passengers smell this bell dinging new febreze car with Odorclear Technology cleans away odors. For up to 30 days smells nice. Breathe happy, with new febreze. Yet up 90 fall short in getting key nutrients from food alone. Lets do more. Add one a day 50 a complete multivitamin with 100 daily value of more than 15 key nutrients. One a day 50 . What you just did is inflammatory to people all over the country who look and say see once again the president is right and everybody else is fake media and everybody in this room is trying to do their job. I just i disagree. First of all if anything has been inflamed, its the dishonesty that often takes place by the news media. Still with me, my panel. Were talking about a conservative media and trump and the press era. Its true that hes replaced, both he and the conservative media have replaced Hillary Clinton, who was the foil during the campaign with the media. This is a clear substitution. And what i find so fascinating is the desire to feel like you are disempowered and the victim. People that really do run the country. The man is the most powerful man in the world. He can literally end human life on the planet in about a tenminute sequence. Its not a hyperbolic, this is the power that this man has. The idea that youre still even with this power besieged and what that because i think this emotional space is a key part to understanding the whole era. That emotional space is where he connect to all of these people. Absolutely. Dont share his Life Experiences but share his sense of being looked down on and sneer sneered at and not validated by the the New York Times and the mainstream media. Sometimes i should say correctly. I want to be clear about this. Some of his follows, not in the case of donald trump. Thats what im saying. And Donald Trumps resentments against the media are much more personal and less yeed lod ideological pu but the ideological. But theres a demand for the media that fe reflects themselves back the way they want to be seen. The emotional fuel is so powerful. Donald trump strikes me as a guy who listened to Rush Limbaugh for a long time and watch watched fox and observed the messages. Which is why he sounds like him. White people felt that they were no longer valuable, that the Civil Rights Movement was elevated, black people are able to derive this nobility from victimhood in terms of civil rightsvoting rights. When are we going to be the noble people. The key part of the right, for 30 or 40 years has always been the establishment is liberal, the establishment is against them and they are mashlg nal as they have to take back power. They confront the power of what do you do when youve won. Every institution and high point em battlement of the economy except for the the New York Times. And they have to make war on the only people left and thats the media. This goes back 15 or 20 years. I think its nihilism. I think theres a belief on many people that america is done. It doesnt matter. Weve been soiled. We had the black president for two years. Weve got too many liberals, lbgt people. They dont want things to change. They want to go down swinging. Hes saying if were losing this country at least were going to punch some people on the way out. Theres some universality here. People do like to feel that theyre the noble victim in an unfair fight. People go for that. When you complain about the official during a baseball game like. You have giving into that same feeling that is being played out in large which is like that human impulse of im screwed, its not fair. Thats a universal human impulse we all have. I dont think its nihilism. What i think is people jeanly, huge slowaths of the people fee disrespected. We can argue about whether its justified or not and obviously what the hierarchies are of american society. Clear to me. But the feeling of it is that is really there and thats the core thats driving it all. And also i mean i dont i would disagree that theyre nilistic about the country as a whole but theyre nilistic about the universality of truth. That used to be the conservative principle. The idea that truth is anything but a function of pow are. And people are trying to claim that these numbers dont add up are trying to sell a liberal narrati narrative. I was told that it was voodoo economics. Joy, nicolas, michelle and Jason Johnson, thank you so much. That is all in for this evening. The Rachel Maddow starts right now. Pop quiz. How many people have held the position of president of the United States . How many people have had that job . If you answered 45, it is understandable that you would answer that way. Everybody, including our current president calls donald trump the 45th president of the United States. But you know what . If were counting him as 45, technically that means were counting Grover Cleveland twice because he was the 22nd and 24th president of the United States. And im sure that Grover Cleveland loves to be counted twice. But if were talking about individual people, only 44 people including the current president have actually held that job. Heres another item o