Hillary clinton is about the weakest candidate the democrats have ever put up and i think photo i. D. Is going to make a little bit of a different as well. And Florida Governor rick scott meets his constituents. [ bleep ]. You dont care about working people. When all in starts right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. Donald trump may have suffered a punishing loss in wisconsin last night losing to ted cruz by 13 percentage points, 48 35 . Its a brand new day trump may have suffered a loss in wisconsin last night losing 38 35 . Far ahead of his two remaining rivals. In just the last hour trump was greeted by a rapturous crowd in long island as if wisconsin never happened. Trump was in his element thoroughly enjoying the Home Field Advantage hitting ted cruz for attacking socalled new york values. Do you remember during the debate when he started lecturing me on new york values like were no good, like were no good. And i started talking to him about the world trade center, the bravery, the incredible bravery of everybody, our police, our firemen, our everybody. We all lived through it. We all know people that died. And ive got this guy standing over there looking at me talking about new york values, with scorn on his face, with hatred, with hatred of new york. So, folks i think you can forget about him. Joining me from inside the trump rally in beth page, new york, peter alexander. Peter, what was the scene like inside that massive, massive facility you guys were in . Reporter well, chris, you know Patrick Ewing and john starks, famous names around these parts. This felt at times like an nba finals at the Madison Square garden. This has been a raucous crowd like weve rarely seen it before. 10,000 people filling this massive warehouse. There was a lot of security in advance, anticipates what could be a potentially waraucous nigh. It was. A couple protesters. Most of the interruptions were people chanting so loud for trump that he had to walk away from the mike yelling yt build that wall, yelling trump, they were all on his side tonight clearly benefiting from the homefield advantage. Weve been talking to people here tonight. As dronald trump said at the start, its good to be home. Theyre proud trump is back home. Peter alexander, thanks for that. You can see a lot of the red maga hats which is what Trump Supporters refer to them as. Joining me from the protest outside the trump rally, nbc news correspondent jacob rascon and jacob, what was the situation like outside the venue . Reporter so for about an hour now, chris, you have over here the protesters who have been out here for several hours protesting and yelling and chanting at the supporters going inside and then youre going to have over to my left youre going to watch the police, the 50 feet in between, and the police farther back in full riot gear because at one point there was almost a fight and then you have the big crowd of Trump Supporters. Now, these are people who could not get in because the venue was at capacity. Theyll spontaneously now break out into chants, into yelling. At some points they were throwing things and as i said, there were almost fights and thats why you had the police in full riot gear come in to try to break it up and move the media to the other side of the street. Chris . All right. Nbcs jacob rascon, thanks for that. Donald trump trying to flip the script, of course, after resounding defeat in yesterdays wisconsin primary. A victory not just for ted cruz but the stoptrump Movement Including local talk radio, wellfunded superpac which until now had failed to make much of an impact. According to exit polls less happen half of primary voters in wisconsin felt excited or optimistic about what trump would do as president , while a plurality, 38 said they were scared of a trump presidency. In a rare move for the republican front runner, trump opted not to appear in front of tv cameras last week instead releasing a statement accusing cruz of illegally coordinating with his associated superpac and tieing him to what trump ally roger stone is calling the big steal. Ted cruz is worse than a puppet, he is a trojan horse being used by the party bosses attempting to steal the nomination from mr. Trump. Last nights results did contain a couple Silver Linings for trump, however. First given wisconsins highly distinctive political culture, it is not clear that what happened there can be repeated in upcoming primary states. Second, trump managed to win six of wisconsins 42 delegates holding cruz to 36 meaning cruz won with a margin of 30 delegates. Thats 12 fewer than if hed gotten a clean sweep. Margins are what counts right now in the race at 1,237. Heres where that race stands after wisconsin. Trump is still the only candidate in sight of the finish line with 756 delegates trailed by cruz with 517. Marco rubio who suspended his campaign in third with just 172. John kasich whos still in the race with 143. Its still an uphill climb for trump. According to nbc news, he now needs to win 58 of the remaining delegates in order to clinch the nomination on the first ballot at that Republican Convention in cleveland in july. If trump falls short, the race would likely move to a contested convention. Something the campaign appears to be struggling to prepare for. According to politico, trumps embattled Campaign ManagerCorey Lewandowski is fighting to preserve his own power and to box out Paul Manefort hired last month. One source with knowledge of the situation told msnbcs ari melber that manafort views his role as having Broader Authority than lewandowski might think and was said to have told the cam pa campaign he needs absolute control of political strategy. Maneford was scheduled to meet with trump this morning and mikely threaten to quit if he didnt see more cooperation. Joining me, former deputy Campaign Manager of Carly Fiorina and supporter of ted cruz. Mckay coppens, senior Political Writer for buzzfeed and author of 2016 Campaign Book the wilderness. Sarah, let me start you. Ted cruz trotted out the new york values line in iowa, he was trying to close the deal in iowa. It was pretty clear based on polling calls that we heard, they poll tested that with the iowa folks. Apparently it poll tested well. They attacked him on new york values. Why should new yorkers vote for this guy now when he was basically using them to score political points in iowa . Well, a couple things. One, i dont doubt that donald trump will do well in his home state. Look, even john kasich managed to win he is home state. Even john kasich. Thats mean. Thats mean. Continue. That being said, i think donald trump has hit a wall. I think etven if he does well i new york, that cant translate very far past that. Again, its his home state. Ted cruz saw what ground game can do, what an actual political operation can do and were seeing disarray and chaos in the trump campaign. I think its the end there. Okay. Mckay coppens is shaking his head. Why are you shaking your head . Well, i think that, you know, theres a case to be made that new york isnt applicable to the rest of the states except if you look at the rest of the map, you have states like pennsylvania, you have states like rhode island, you have states connecticut, delaware. New jersey. You have states that are actually very demographically similar to new york. They have a republican primary electorate that is similar to new yorks. These are not states where ted cruz is particularly well suited. A lot of the Republican Voters in these states are more moderate on social issues which is one of the defining social conservatism is one of the defining characteristics of the cruz campaign. Look, cruz should be congratulated for a big win in wisconsin but i just dont know if the antitrump forces are as organized and as well positioned in the remaining states in this primary. Sarah, is your sense, i was in wisconsin talking to a bunch of folks and it does seem hard to replicate the situation partly because of the specificity of the scott walker battles that have created a very distinct political culture there, but also its just so clear to me there that the cruz vote was a nevertrump vote. They might as well have written neverfrump trump onto ballots. To one is waving the flag for texas. The question is how long can you keep voting for a person as a means of blocking another person and expect to get victories . Well, look, a month ago people said that cruz couldnt win wisconsin and youre citing scott walker and thats right, scott walker endorsed him toward the end, actually, so i think you could see that repeated in pennsylvania, in delaware, where people rally around ted cruz. Scott walker wasnt giving speeches about never trump. Scott walker was giving his endorsement as a proted cruz endorsement. Sort of. He sort of was. This idea you cant replicate wisconsin, that was somehow a social conservative thing or antiunion thing or whatever it was, the fact of the matter is he won by 13 points. He wasnt supposed to win at all. So, sarah, this is my question. What are the next states that ted cruz wins . In your mind . Pennsylvania . Connecticut, new jersey . I think hell overperform in all the states. To tell you the truth, california is where im already looking which is the backstop if you want to prevent trump from getting to 1,237, ted cruz polled in a tie lead there, i think that will continue to move. With the support of someone like Carly Fiorina, i think hes got a great shot in california to do a lot more than people expect. Sarah, let me ask you this. It was interesting to watch cruz last night. He came out and gave, like, a fiveminute pararation on delegate math unlike anything ive ever seen in a campaign. Obviously he understands whats going on here. What is this campaign about from a policy perspective at this point . I kind of lost the thread. What are the big policy disputes between these men that are being contested . Wow. So ted cruz is a conservative and donald trump is a liberal. Ted cruz wants to simplify the tax code, repeal obamacare. Ted cruz is prolife. Donald trump has no clue what the prolife Community Stands for as he made very clear. Donald trump has no idea what conservative women are about. He wants he doesnt know what to do with obamacare. He wants to expand the tax code. I dont even know what hed do with that. He is so a part of the system, such a part of the establishment, they could not be further apart policy wise. Okay. Policy wise, right, what im getting from you, sarah, and a lot of nevertrump forces, they believe that he believes what hes saying he believes. At least punitily tsh. Hes not saying what he says he believes. He sends out a statement an hour after he talks and sensds out a statement about the statement. Im not disputing that. Im saying if you essentially go to the website, what the on the record policy position is, if is repeal obamacare, its replace it with something awesome. You got to take care of people. Its it is prolife. Hes very prolife. He told us. Most prolife the most prolife. I dont know, i guess he wants if you go through the issues that sarah just pointed out, theyre abortion, simplify the tax code, obamacare, womens issues in general the way you know, there is, you know, certainly theres a dramatic difference in the way they talk about the issues. The policy issue policy wise, i dont know if theres that much yeah. I think it comes down to trump and trumpism. Sarah isgur flores, mckay coppins, thank you both. Still to come, how last years long lines and absurd waits, an ineffective, to say the least, democratic process and why some want to keep it that way. First the escalating fight between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Ill be joined by robert reich and barney frank to debate. That is coming up. Do not go anywhere. Your Insurance Company wont replace the full value of your totaled new car. The guy says, you picked the wrong insurance plan. No, i picked the wrong Insurance Company. With new car replacement, well replace the full value of your car plus depreciation. Liberty mutual insurance. Hoplenty fast. . Its not how fast you mow, its how well you mow fast. Its not how fast you mow, its how well you mow fast. Even if it doesnt catch on, doesnt mean its not true. The John Deere Ztrak z535m. Its how well you mow fast. Were always looking for ways to speed up your Car Insurance search. Heres the latest. Problem is, we havent figured out how to reverse it. For now, just log on to compare. Com. Plug in some simple info and get up to 50 free quotes. Choose the lowest and hit purchase. Now. If youll excuse me, im late for an important function. Compare. Com. Saving humanity from high insurance rates. Hillary clinton sure seems to be losing patience with the continued presence of Bernie Sanders in the democratic president ial race. Last month, having built up a sizable pledged delegate lead it appeared clinton had, quote, started pivoting heavily toward the general election. With his resounding victory last night in wisconsin, sanders has now won seven out of the last eight democratic contests giving him a legitimate claim, the momentum of the race. The Clinton Campaign has moved toward a more critical tone. Clinton this morning questioning whether sanders even understands the issues at the center of his campaign. You cant really help people if you dont know how to do what you are campaigning on saying you want to do. Hed been talking for more than a year about doing things that he obviously hadnt really studied or understood and that does raise a lot of questions. Clinton and her campaign z o zeroed in on sanders meeting with the New York Daily News editorial, in which sanders critics have pounced on for its lack of policy specifics. The core of his campaign has been break up the banks and it didnt seem in reading his answers that he understood exactly how that would work under dodd frank, exactly who would be responsible, what the criteria were. Clinton also hammered sanders for saying the Family Members of the victims of the sandy hook massacre should not be allowed to sue gun manufacturers, prompting a fiery response from sanders. So what do you say to these sandy hook families who say you should apologize for your position . I would say that i think that it is we all are aware of what happened and sandy hook is a tragedy beyond comprehension. But maybe secretary clinton might want to apologize to the families who lost their loved ones in iraq. Right now, even though shes only won one of the last eight contests, clinton leads sanders by 246 pledged delegates having won 55 of them so far. There is, however, a potential game changer on the horizon. New york where voters go to the polls on april 19th, less than two weeks from now. It is the state where clinton, of course, served as senator, where she lives today and even a narrow loss here would be a genuine disaster for her. If not in the delegate race, clearly in terms of the perception of the strength of her candidacy and campaign. At his victory speech last night, sanders who grew up in Brooklyn Made clear his every intention of winning the state. Please keep this a secret. Do not tell secretary clinton. Shes getting a little nervous and i dont want her to get more nervous. But i believe weve got an excellent chance to win new york and a lot of delegates in that state. Joining me now, karen finney, Strategic Communications advi r adviser, senior spokesperson for hillary for america 2016. Always great to have you here. Do you want to rye spoespond to senat senators response to sandy hook and iraq . I think that was an unfortunate to tell you the truth. The person who was one of the sandy the Family Member of a sandy hook victim who said they would like to see an apology and actually Hillary Clinton has not only apologized for her vote on iraq sher iraq, she said it was a mistake and actually a month or two ago senator sanders was asked if his vote, support of gun manufacturers liability was a mistake and he said no. I think hes trying to compare a couple l of different things. Seemed a little testy there but thats all right. This is new york. Thats how we roll. Its rough and tumble. Is the rough and tumble, is that your expectation for the next two weeks here . Yeah, why not . I agree. Look, i have no problem its not i was born in new york. Look, as long as heres what i would say, though. I think its important that this continue to stay focused on the issues and i think it has. I mean, even the clips that you showed from this morning where hillary was responding to a question from joe about some of the things that came out in that daily news Editorial Board meeting. You know, i think she raised a fair point about, you know, the senator goes around talking about breaking up the banks and, you know, where she has talked about going farther and Systemic Risk and i know youre going to have a debate on that with people far more qualified than i to discuss it. I think thats a fair question. Right, but let me ask you this. I remember i do think sometimes on the democratic side, sort of bracketing that, right, theres this sort of fetish for specifics and plans even with the knowledge that those plans will change, right . So in 2008, secretary clinton and barack obama had a sixmonthlong debate about the mandate that Hillary Clinton said there had to be a mandate. Barack obama said, no, you cant have a mandate. Barack obama won that election and literally the first day was, were throwing out, Hillary Clinton was right, were going to do the mandate. My question is join get into these granular disputes, whats it all cash out to . In fairness, though, literally some of the answers were i hadnt really thought about that, i dont really know. Thats not saying lets get down to a granular specific. Thats, you know, the question being, so how would you do that, what do you think about that . I hadnt really thought i think that is a fair criticism, but heres what i think is more important. I mean, coming into new york, i think one of the things that were looking forward to, certa certainly, is the opportunity to talk about hillarys record in this state because senator sanders has focused a lot on the 90s. Were here in new york, were here where Hillary Clinton, here in new york city, one of her big accomplishments helping make sure we secured the funds to rebuild downtown. The work that shes done upstate in helping to create jobs and bring partnerships like forktotable where literally she had restauranteurs from new york city go upstate to try to connect the two, connect the upstate market with, you know, restaurants downstate that were looking for, you know, organic food and wines and so its that kind of creative idea and thats i think it gives people a sense of her problemsolving but also people in new york know when she says shes going to do something, she gets it done. All politics is local approach to this. Karen finney, thank you for joining us. Sure. Joining me, jeff weaver, Campaign Manager for Bernie Sanders. Jeff, i want to start on this, the sandy hook question because ive actually i was somewhat confused. That bill theres sort of two issues being conflated. The bill that became law that senator sanders voted for in 2005. My understanding is the position of the senator and the campaign, that they would introduce legislation to repeal that law that shields the manufacturer from a whole sort of class of liability claims. Wells , in fact, hes supporting legislation currently introduced in the senate to do just that. Hes talked about this issue on a number of occasions, something the Clinton Campaign has brought up obviously in the past. They only bring it up in some states where they think its going to be effective. Similar to flint, really. They talk a lot about flint in michigan. Bernie sanders continues to talk about flint. They dont talk about flint anymore. Theyre talking about guns in new york because they think it will help them there. Bernie sanders has been very clear he wants to appeal the vast majority of that bill and look, chris, Hillary Clinton on guns, if anybody believes that Hillary Clinton becomes president is going to do much about guns only has to look at her record. She used to be for registering handguns when she was in new york. Then when she ran against president obama, she attacked him for being too hard on gun safety. He called her annie oakley. You dont take money from the gun lobby if youre going to take on the gun lobby. Lets be clear. The same with bank and other interests she takes money from. Two things. What do you mean by takes money from the gun lobby . She has taken out maxed out contributions from registered lobbyists for the gun lobby. She had a fundraiser on march 21st hosted, cohosted by the guy whos the chief, or was very recently the chief lobbyist for the nra with democrats. So, yes, she takes money from the gun lobby. She has a prominent gun lobbyist who holds fundraisers for her. Its the same as with the banks. The fossil fuel industry. The pharmaceutical companies. All of these people seem to be too stupid to realize that Hillary Clinton is going to take them on when she gets to be president. Maybe they know something we dont, chris. So let me come back around, though, to this sort of point on this legislation. When senator sanders was asked in that daily news interview about this issue, he said how would you feel about this lawsuit . Do i think people should be able to sue the manufacturer . He gave a oneword answer of no. I think that was somewhat confusing because the whole idea is that if that 2005 legislation is repealed, it would reduce the blockage to the courthouse door that those families now face ergo, they would be able to sue. Lets be clear about first of all senator sanders longstanding record on semiautomatic assault weapons. Hes been opposed to them. Hes voted to ban them numerous times. If, in fact, the laws were on the books he had supported there would be no sandy hook because the weapon that was used would not have been accessible to anybody. So he has been a strong opponent of semiautomatic assault weapons. He probably lost a 1980 election because of his support for the ban on semiautomatic assault weapons. He has a dminus with the nra. Hes earned his dminus. So hes been extremely strong on the particular issue of semiautomatic assault weapons which is, you know, the key issue here at sandy hook. Im sorry, but jeff, do that point, that no that he gave in that interview where he said, no, they shouldnt be able to sue, im just trying to interpret what that means. Yeah, so hes been very clear if youre a bad actor, if youre selling guns into an area where you know theyre going to be going into the wrong hands, if youre selling, you know, large amounts of ammunition to a Single Person and you should know thats going to be used for bad conduct, then you should certainly be held liable. The point i think he has made in the past, if youre a small mom and pop store, hunting store in northern vermont that sells hunting weapons to completely legally follow, folls all the r someone goes out and breaks the rules should you be held liable in that instance . Probably not. Big manufacturers, hes been very, very clear he would hold bad actors responsible. Jeff weaver, thanks for your time tonight. Appreciate it. Next, the fight over the heart of a campaign. Can Bernie Sanders keep his biggest promise, or one of them, ahead . Jake reese, day to feel alive jake reese, day to feel alive put under a microscope, we can see all the bacteria that still exists. 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The answer and followups from sanders, how he would break up the banks, something hes promised to do in the first 100 days of his presidency has become a hotly contested issue at the center of the democratic campaign. Basically does sanders have a plan that makes sense on one of his signature policy issues . Hillary clinton for one say no. Her response coming up when we debate this with former congressman barney frank who agrees with clinton and former labor secretary robert reich who says sanders does, indeed, have the right plan for wall street. Thats next. And you got this turning. Thats why i need this kind of resolution and computing power. Being able to use a pen like this on the screen directly with the image, it just gives me a different relationship to it and i cant do that on my mac. This is brilliant for me. Take on the unexpected. The new 2016 nissan altima. But to stand out. Make healthy saychoices. Ten but up to 90 fall short in getting key nutrients. From food alone. 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If you are taking viberzi, you should not take medicines that cause constipation. The most common side effects of viberzi include constipation, nausea, and abdominal pain. Stay ahead of ibsd. With new viberzi. I think he hadnt done his homework and hed been talking for more than a year about doing things that he obviously hadnt really studied or understood. And that does raise a lot of questionses. Clinton campaign appears to think they have found one of their strongest attacks yet on Bernie Sanders. After making his plan to break up the banks a signature issue, he actually doesnt know what hes talking about. Thats how the Clinton Campaign is portraying his interview with the New York Daily NewsEditorial Board earlier this year. Sanders campaign, however, has responded with force saying today,s on breaking up big banks senator sanders understands exactly how to do that. We dont need any lessons on getting things done in congress from someone who didnt pass a single amendment by a roll call vote during her entire career in the senate. Joining me, barney frank, former congressman, Hillary Clinton supporters and coauthor of the dodd frank legislation. Robert reich, foauthor of savi the many, not the few. Mr. Frank, let me begin be you. There were a few different answers giving in that interview in the daily news. Theres a great degree of policy confusion about this. Your response first to what you heard from senator sanders about too big to fail, about breaking up the banks in that interview . It was very disappointing because it wasnt coherent. He confided several issues, by the way, i understood previously one of his biggest issues to deal with this was glass steagall. I didnt see any reference to glass steagall or explanation of that. He appeared to have forgotten all about this. Of course, glass steagall is not relevant to the too big to fail issue. It has to do with other issues. But he confused several things. First, he was talking about antitrust not first. He was talking about not enough loans going to smaller banks. Look, the too big to fail issue is very specific. The problem is if an institution is capable of amassing so much debt that if it becomes insolvent and cant pay its debts, it causes systemic damage. Yes. Thats what happened in 2008. The legislation deals with that in two ways. The bill thats on the books. First of all, it severely restricts their ability to incur debt. Aig couldnt pay. You couldnt do that anymore. You have got to have capital both in general in the institution and specifically. In addition, what we say is this, if an institution a going to go out of business because it cant pay its debts, the federal government takes it over, it fails. Thats the key thing people dont understand. An institution becomes too heavily indebted, is put out of business by the federal government and if it has too much debt and that level of debt threatens the stability of the economy, the federal government temporarily pays some of those debts, only as much as it needs to stop things from going out of control then takes it back automatically under an assessment, other institutions. Nothing in which senator sanders said deals with that at all. He, as i said, confuses several digit different he seems to have forgotten he was for glass steagall and doesnt explain in any way how hes going to deal with it. He says he wants to break up the banks but doesnt tell us how big is too big. The argument is you dont want a bank to get so indebted, have such debt that it threatens the economy so you deal with that by breaking up the banks. I still havent heard, ive asked several times from senator sanders, how big is too big . To what level if hes going to reduce thebanks, he hasnt told us, what level do we have to go to protect ourselves . Theres a whole array of issues, whether the understanding of dodd frank is accurate, and the sort of metaquestion, i think, do you feel the senator is add quatly beli briefed, studied, ready on the essential policy issue of his campaign . First of all, chris, its a tempest in a teapot. What the senator said in response to a question about the Feds Authority, not the authority of the president , the Feds Authority to break up the big banks is he did not know. I can unction thderstand that. The Feds Authority is ambiguous under various statutes. Then when it came to the president s authority, senator sanders was very specific and accurate and said, well, the president can through the treasury secretary convene a group of regulators. It is called the Financial Stability oversight board. And they can determine whether a bank is too risky. And he in terms of in terms of glass steagall, i mean, senator sanders has said throughout this campaign that glass steagall needs to be resurrected. He cannot abide the fact that senator clinton does not want to resurrect glass steagall because although glass steagall would not have prevented the financial meltdown, it would have at least in the eyes of many regulators, many observers including dan terulo at the fed, it would have helped right. And so we need to resurrect glass steagall and the senator said that repeatedly. I honestly think this entire tempest is really a reflection of how well the senator is doing and the Mainstream Press may be a little bit nervous. Certainly the establishment is a little bit worried. Mr. Frank, you dont seem to agree with that . No, im sorry mr. Reish, the whole theyre picking on bernie. The thing that bothered me in the interview and the rest of the campaign is a kind of mccarthyite suggestion the reason big banks and other institutions havent been criminally prosecuted is in part because people have taken financial contribution. That, by the way, is an attack on president obama. Lets be very clear. The secretary of state does not get to indict people. The complaint there were not has literally zero to do with secretary clinton. Its an attack on president obama. I wanted there to be more prosecutions. There were policy choices i disagreed with but senator sanders is consistent in suggesting that somehow people were persuaded not to do that because of Campaign Contributions is, as i said, its a kind of mccarthyism. Its an accusation without substance. Beyond that, no, i dont blame the press. I dont see how you can do that. That was a very good interview and they did a very good job and, no, it is not the case that the president can convene a group of regulators. Hillary clinton, by the way, has been very specific. There were some powers in the existing law to deal with banks if they are a serious threat. She unlike senator sanders has said specifically she wants to increase the power to deal with banks if there was a complexity that is getting out of control. But well, theyre already theres already too much complexity and theyre already out of control. You know, in 2008, the biggest the five biggest banks had 33 of total banking ass assets. Today the five biggest banks have 44 of total biggest assets and if they were too big to fail then, theyre too big to fail, theyre too big to jail, theyre too big to curtail. They have too much political power as well as economic power. Wait a minute, political power is part of the issue. It is not the size of the banks. It is the size of the indebtedness. Large institutions right. That are solidly capitalized that dont have a lot of debt, its the leverage. Thats the key thing. Its the amount of debt congressman frank, with all due respect, i do respect you a great deal you dont like the point. But they do its not Just Economics here. Were also talking about political okay, but i want to talk about economics. I understand that. But you dont like the economics because it goes against your argument. Well get to the politics later. No, the economics is exactly in my argument. I want to they go together. The economics and the politics are intertwined here. So, so mr. Reish, you dont want me to make the point about your economic mistake. It may be embarrassing. The problem is this, the problem is not their size, its the amount of indebtedness they leave behind and how you deal with that and we deal with that by preventing them from getting indebted as they were in the past so its very different from 2008. You could not have an aig again. We also say if they debt too indebted, they fail. They are put out of business. As to politics, i will say this. With regard to the political power, when we were dealing with the legislation, far more political power, frankly, is in the Community Banks, the credit unions, because they represent everybody there. I did not find when i was trying to get, for instance, the Consumer Bureau adopted, that it was the big banks i had to worry about, i had to worry about the political power of the Community Banks located as they are in everybodys district. Let me just say this. The new head this will be the final word. The president of the Federal Reserve bank in minnesota, a republican, former Goldman Sachs executive, he says the big banks ought to be broken up. Hes a republican, former Goldman Sachs executive. One person. Hes now president of the Federal Reserve bank in minneapolis. Before him, the feder reserve Bank President in dallas said the big banks have to be broken up. Sandy wile thinks the big banks ought to be broken up. This is not a fringe idea. I didnt say it was a fringe idea. I said it what im saying is this, youre evading my point again. If you believe the banks ought to be broken up, by the way, most federal officials do not think you have to break up the banks. We think we have to control their indebtedness. That, again, is a point you seem to miss. Beyond that, if you tell me the banks are too big and have to be broken up, to what level . If the argument is we cannot allow an institution to exist, if its going out of business or its indebtedness will threaten us, i ask people to tell me to what level. 500 billion . 300 billion . All those have implications for the economy. Of course they have huge implications. If they are ten banks and eight pieces each . Whats the level to which you want to reduce them . Theyre already too big to fail and curtail and jail. If theres no way of controlling the big banks in this country, there is not right now, they should be broken up. Whats the number . Youre saying theyre too big. How big is too big . Theyre too big right now. And what do you want to reduce them to . The question for anyone, right, whether youre Bernie Sanders or anyone else, right, whos saying too big to fail should be broken up, i mean, there is right now a classification which is Financial Institutions part of dodd frank that essentially throws a lasso around the largest entities deemed systemically vital, the ones that threaten the biggest risk. Is that essentially the cutoff . No, let me respond. Wait a minute, chris. The biggest banks right now dont even have plans for winding themselves down in the event of a financial problem. They have the fed and all of the oversight groups who are supposed to be looking at them have failed them on the basic principle of having a winding down plan. Now, if you dont even have a plan that passes muster, you ought to be put out of your misery. Let me stop you right there. Let me respond to that, please, chris. Very quickly, please. Two issues here. One is the level at which you get extra super vision. Thats 50 billion. Nobody is suggesting i think no bank would be bigger than 50 billion. Again, the point is what we want to do is regulate them. As to the point he just made, yeah, we did require in the bill they submit these plans and under the law its working well, some of them have been told those plans arent good enough. But i want to repeat, it makes no sense, its irresponsible to say we have to break them up, theyre too big barney frank this is when politics and economics come together. Im sorry, that was illuminating, deeply illuminating. We killed a break for it but i now have to go. Thank you very much, both you gentlemen for joining us. All right. Still ahead, its not every day you get oneonone time with your elected official in a starbucks so when one woman had the opportunity, she sure made the most of it. Well play you that video ahead. Last week George Mason University announced it would rename its law school after the Late Supreme Court justice Antonin Scalia. The new name the Antonin Scalia school of law. Upon further review the university decided the name needed another tweak because if youre attending the Antonin Scalia school of law, thats a mouthful to say and people usually use an abbreviation or acronym in these situations and the acronym for the Antonin Scalia school of law is spelled assol. Thats the kind of acronym you dont want on a sweatshirt. It caused the university to change its plans. The wall street germjournal reports the name officially remains the Antonin Scalia school of law but on the website and marketing materials the name reads the Antonin Scalia law school. This is not an acronym or word you want to be associated with and not a word umt shouted at you trying to get your daily carm carmel macciato. Yesterday, a constituent decided to publicly take him to task over recent cuts to planned parenthood funding. You cut medicaid so i couldnt get obamacare. [ bleep ]. You dont care about the working people. Im not talking to you. You dont care about working people. You should be ashamed to show your face around here. Got a million jobs. A million jobs. Great. Who here has a great job . You should. Or is looking forward to finishing school . You really feel like you have a job coming up . You stripped women of access to Public Health care. Shame on you, rick scott. We depend on those services. Rich people like you dont know what to do. When poorer People Like Us need health services, you cut us. Shame on you, rick scott. Youre an embarrassment to our state. Sweet. Do we settle for cable . mom because were settlers and thats what we do. girl but with directv and at t, you can get your tv and Wireless Service from one provider. dad are not we your providers . 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Today the sentence came down in the case of the coal magnate don blankenship, former Massey Energy ceo whos been called the dark lord of coal country. Blankenship was the highe esest ranking former massey executive charged with the worst domestic coal mining disaster in 40 years. April 2010 explosion at the upper big bank mine in mount coal, west virginia, that killed 2 men. He was ceo at the time of the explosion. He was charged with conspiracy to violate health and safety standards, a misdemeanor. Blankenship was on this show in october 2014, showed no remorse for how the coal industry conducts its business. 20 years from now we play that clip of tobacco people saying i dont believe its addictive, youre going to look like that 20 years from now. How do you think about what your legacy is going to look like 20 years from now . Our legacy will look like we made it possible for the country to be strong and be the superpower of the world and have the best quality of life in general in any place in the world. Blankenship was found guilty by a jury last december in a conspiracy charge. Today u. S. District charge irene berger gave him one year in federal prison and a 250,000 fine. With 29 deaths involved that will work out to 12 1 2 days in prison for each life lost. Blankenships defense team plans to appeal the sentencing. They recommended he be fined and placed on probation. Family members of the victims see matters quite differently. One of those Family Members has very strong words after todays sentencing. I lost three there that day. Who were they again . Charles, timothy, davis. That was my only brother, my goto guy. My son, corey thomas, only twin, the youngest one out of all them, and my nephew, joshua, from ohio. I was talking to my other nephew at the station when it all went down. This man has no remorse at all. Six years, he never approached none of us. He never told us he was sorry for what happened. And he knows he could have done the right thing. All he had to do was make one of them 40 phone calls a day he called checking on production, shut it down, fix every. He refused to do it. I miss my family. He hugged his and all he gets is a year . She done great. She gave him what she could give him. They need to be stricter, marsh penalties for people like that who puts greed and money over human life. Take on the unexpected. The new 2016 nissan altima. Built to stand out. But ive managed. E Crohns Disease is tough, except that managing my symptoms was all i was doing. And when i finally told my doctor, he said humira is for adults like me who have tried other medications but still experience the symptoms of moderate to severe Crohns Disease. And that in clinical studies, the majority of patients on humira saw significant symptom relief. 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Polidents unique micro clean formula works in just 3 minutes, killing 99. 99 of odor causing bacteria. For a cleaner, fresher, brighter denture every day. To put in dr. Scholls active series insoles. They help reduce wear and tear on my legs, becuase they have triple zone protection. And reduce shock by 40 . So i feel like im ready to take on anything. Whewhat does it look like . Ss, is it becoming a better professor by being a more adventurous student . Is it one day giving your daughter the opportunity she deserves . Is it finally witnessing all the artistic wonders of the Natural World . Whatever your definition of success is, helping you pursue it, is ours. Tiaa. Thiand being able to useve worked oa pen like thisk. On the screen directly with the image, it takes me back to my time as a painter. And i just cant do that on my mac. Every time that im in a room with a camera showing something, i think to myself, well this is Good Television but bad democracy. Its great we have caucuses we can show the room, its great were showing the lines. The fact of the matter is there should be nothing to show. It should be very easy. You dont show people doing things that are easy. Last night i got to see in milwaukee, wisconsin, that american democracy can be a pretty worn down and creaky, ruth goldbergian machine. At times made that way on purpose. In other words, people who have an interest in making sure the country is less democratic than it should be. Take, for instance, Wisconsin Republican representative who as a state senator in 2014 told colleagues he wanted to nip early voting in the bud before it spread to your communities and last night seemed to suggest wisconsins voter i. D. Law could skew the election in republicans favor. You know a lot of republicans since 1 9d84 in president ial races have not been able to win in wisconsin. Why would it be different for a ted cruz or donald trump . I think Hillary Clinton is the weakest candidate the democrats have ever put up. Now we have photo i. D. I think photo i. D. Is going to make a difference as well. Huh, interesting. Theres also the fact that the primary nominating process is not strictly democratic at all. Since it the party that actually decides the nominee, the decisions of a few Party Insiders cant thats a point i pressed former rnc general counsel ben ginsburg on yesterday. It seems to me that we are we have two trains careening toward each other. One of them is the fact that in the modern era we have come to understand primaries as fundamentally small D Enterprises where voters choose the person they want as the nominee, the others that the actual rules of the system arent that voters choose the nominee, voters simply choose delegates through an attenuated process who in turn choose a nominee and its going to be a bit of a rude awakening when those two things crash together in cleveland. I dont think they crash into each other, chris. You vote for members of congress, your elelegislature, y council but dont tell them how to vote on every matter. The delegation Selection Process is similar to that. Sam seder, i thought that was such an illuminating answer bra because its true in a technical sense, electing a quasilegislative body which will do this thing which is adopt rules but no one thinks of it that way. Right. I think theres going to be a really rude awakening for republican primary voters come july. I dont think thats the same, frankly, as the voting lines because, you know, one is theres an opportunity at least for Republican Voters to say, hey, you know, our party completely rejected our expression of will. Theres no theyre just not taking us seriously. The idea that that representative from wisconsin,s theres only two options here when that guy gives that kind of answer, right . Hes got to believe that every president ial election that has gone to a democrat in wisconsin has been the function of literally hundreds of thousands of fraudulent votes in which case he should be on that right now, right . I mean, he should be holding investigations about that. Or he just sees theres going to be an added bonus for us that we have consciously disenfranchised a whole set of people and they happen to be democrats. Okay. I totally agree, like, from a sort of moral perspective, right, that these are very different things. Voter i. D. Laws that disenfranchise folks, make it impossible to vote is one thing. Primary rule systems is another. What unites them in my mind is the fact we have set up all kinds of ways in american democracy that make it hard, attenuate the connection between the people and what happens democratically. Im not even talking morally, though. Im talking just pragmatically. Right. The fact is those disenfranchised voters cant vote that guy out of office. Right. They dont have access to that. These republican primarygoers who about to find out that, hey, you know, i think theres a very good chance theyre going to get their choices are going to get screwed over in some respect. We appreciate theyre going to be told we appreciate your suggestions, well be considering them in cleveland and well get back to you. Been an interesting year. And at least those people have sw somewhere to go, right, theoretically they can continue to vote against their republican congressmen. Their republican senator. Those people are disenfranchi d disenfranchised. Theres nowhere for them to go. They cant even respond in terms of the electoral democratic process. The other thing someone made this point to me once in a different context, different policy context about just how much damage you can do with hassle. You know, look, i have a todo list i could pull up here, theres things on there that have been there for three years. All it takes is a little bit of hassle to get me not to do it. You create enough little hassles, you can have big effects. Well, sure. Frankly thats the strategy, the way the Republican Party is disenfranchising womens right to have sovereignty over their own body. I mean, thats the whole game plan. For abortion, absolutely. One hassle after another. Exactly. Were going to keep putting obstacles there and make it practically impossible to exercise that right. Thats exactly whats going on with the disenfranchisement of voters. And both Constitutional Rights although both very contested Constitutional Rights. Sam seder. Thanks for joining us. Thank you, chris. That is all in thr this evening. The Rachel Maddow show begins now. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. In 2012 in the last president ial race, super tuesday was on march 6 th. Initially these were all the states that were supposed to vote on super tuesday in the president ial race in 2012. Before we got to super tuesday, before we got to march 6th, texas dropped off that list. Its very interesting. Texas wanted to be on super tuesday, but they were embroiled in a court fight over just exactly how racist their redistricting could be in that state, just how much the Republican Legislature in texas would be allowed to dilute all the hispanic and black votes so the hispanic and black representatives would never get elected in texas. Because of a court fight, an Ongoing Court fight over that, because nobody was quite sure what the congressional districts or the lla