Causing. I would also ask to take up the cause of freedom and democracy. Plus a major victory for the Antifracking Movement in new york. And attorney general holder talks to msnbc about race and policing on his watch. It means we as a nation have failed. Its as simple as that. Weve failed. All in starts right now. Im ari melber. The hacking worked. After threats of violence over a movie they didnt like because of its treatment of north korea, tonight they know they got exactly what they wanted. Sony announced it is paying the ransom. As the work day ended here on the west coast, sony made it official that its canceling the release of the interview. The comedy imagines a plot to assassinate real life leader kim jong un and has escalated tensions between that country and the u. S. Sonys statement is something else. Sony pictures has been the victim of an unprecedented criminal assault against our employees, our customers and our business. Those who attacked us stole our intellectual property, private emails and sensitive and propritary material and sought to destroy our spirit and our morale, all apparently to thwart the release of a movie they did not like. Were deeply saddened at this brazen effort to suppress the distribution of a movie, and in the process do damage to our company, our employees and the american public. We stand by our filmmakers, sony continues, and their right to Free Expression and are extremely disappointed by this outcome. Because of this subject matter of the interview, theres been widespread speculation this whole time that north korea was explicitly responsible author this hack. Now, the country did say that the film was, quote, an act of war back in the summer, but they denied their involvement in the hack. That brings me to the other piece of breaking news here. Of u. S. Officials telling nbc news tonight for first time they believe north korea, its government, is behind all this. Though they also stress the operational attack originated outside of north korea. Quote, we have found linkage to the north korean government. Thats according to one u. S. Official. Now, sonys unprecedented decision to pull the movie came after most of the nations major theater chains decided to delay or drop the film from their theaters. Now, sony cited that fact in its statement. They said, quote, we respect and understand our partners decision and, of course, completely share their paramount interest in the safety of employees and theater goers. The group behind the sony hack which calls itself gardens of peace yesterday released an explicit threat against theaters that did plan to show the interview and included a reference to the 9 11 attacks. Whatever comes in the coming days is called by the greed of Sony Pictures entertainment. All the world will denounce the sony. End quote. Now that its pulled the interview from theaters sony faces the decision about what to do about all this in the film. Theyre calling for them to release the movie online arguing that doing that will make it clear that those behind the hacks and the threats they cant force complete censorship of this film. Quite a story unfolding here. Joining me is brent lang, a Senior Reporter for variety magazine and has been all over this. Lets start with the fact that this is a difficult decision that sony had to make. We understand that. But you look at that statement here breaking tonight, them saying this is free speech, this is bad and yet by paying the ransom by giving in, they know that theyve made this more likely to be a consequence and an attack in the future. Well, its not exactly a hollywood ending. The bad guys certainly seem to have won in this case. And if you read that statement, you can see that sony is playing to a lot of different constituencies. Theyre clearly trying to blame the exhibitors at some level that the exhibitors have made this decision, that it was their decision to pull the film. They really didnt have any choice. And at the same time theyre standing up for free speech, Free Expression, things that are very popular with artists and stars. Are they standing up for Free Expression . Well, thats debatable. But in this case theyre trying to make some sort of larger statement about speech being quelled. Obviously, playing to members of the Hollywood Community for whom that kind of artistic expression is extremely important. How much is this costing sony now . Well, its costly in a number of different ways. In terms of the film itself, its a film that had a budget of 42 and 43 million. In terms of marketing and promotional costs, youre looking at 30 million to 50 million in marketing and promotion cost. All that goes out the window. Sony trying to kill its Advertising Television advertising right now and recoup some of that money, but extremely costly. Thats to say nothing of the tens of millions of dollars in repairing their cyber network, their Computer Network and any kind of legal liability the company faced. So a very, very costly experience. Reporting in hollywood, is this seen as a sony problem or a story about a particular movie that was aberrant, was weird, that went really far in a storyline about assassinating a current leader or is this a bigger story now that people are feeling square eing bigger story now that people are feeling square ein scared acros industry . The silence was deafening, very few alist director, big studio executives came out and went to bat for sony. Why . A lot of it was fear. Fear. They were worried about repercussions and any kind of potential punishment they might face if they went too far in support of sony. So this kind of criminal hack and well talk more about where it originated because this is a Foreign Policy story as much as an artistic and hollywood story, but this kind of foreign hack you think made even these very powerful people who are rich, who have platforms, who have lawyers, this is not just average people, although average employees of sony were affected, but you think it made these powerful people afraid enough to just shut up. It was totally unprecedented. Hollywood has never seen something of this level. I cant think of another film thats been pulled in this way at this late of date for this kind of reason. What happens when people wake up tomorrow in l. A. . Do people move on from this or is there a greater reckoning here as people try to figure out what are the new rules of the road . And what are the reactions going to be . We get criticized for our export of culture in hollywood in many countries including the middle east where we have a lot of interests and a lot of critics. Do there have to be new rules of the road . Does chris dodd have to get involved here and figure out if there is a line to be crossed . When you look at it, chris dodd, the politician, where was the mpaa . They did a couple of watereddown statements. They did not really come out on board. They tried to get all the studios together to try to do a estimate of solidarity and they apparently failed in that every. I will mention since we invoked his name, weve invited chris dodd to come on and that invitation stands. I want to thank you very much for your time tonight. I want to turn to another piece of this. Many cant understand why the individual theaters would choose to take a different movie, really any movie other than this after specific threats of violence against their theater. And sony cited that collective exodus in its decision to pull the release today. Even if those individual reasons do make sense for security, business, risk aversion, tonights victory for the criminals who sought to censor this film would seem to have much far reaching consequences, and thats not even a prediction. Let me tell you this, already reports out now about a planned movie set in north korea starring steve carell, canceled. Many respond with sadness, outrage and disbelief, in a statement to all in screenwriter aaron sorkin who argued that the press had fed part of the damage of this sony hack. He emailed me and said today the u. S. Succumbed to an attack. The wishes of the terrorists were fulfilled in part by easily distracted members of the American Press who chose gossip and schadenfreudefueled reporting over a story with immeasurable consequence for a story that was forming before their eyes. Judd apatow asked if they will pull any movie that gets an anonymous threat. And steve carell called it a sad day for creative expression. Whether theyre criticizing their own government than our enemies. Joining me now david edelstein, commentator for cbs sunday morning. Good evening to you. But not a good evening for freedom of speech. Are you safer criticizing the u. S. Government here than these foreign regimes . Let me say is this the camera . I just want to make sure you understand that i believe kim jong un is a great and wise leader, and my presence here is in no way intended as a criticism of him. I believe he was sent from god to be an emissary and to lead his people. And you feel safe now . You feel safer. I feel very, very safe and having established that, i did really love it in Team America World police where kim jongil, his father got his head blown off by the team america. It was a really funny moment, but those were different times. People like that movie. Would anyone put that movie out today . No, absolutely not. Who knows . Because the south park guys love to provoke these people. They did it with do you remember when bigger, louder, uncut the south park movie where they had Saddam Hussein the gay lover of satan. There is a great and rich tradition of political satire aimed at totalitarian governments that we know do not have any sense of humor whatsoever. That is one of the things that we export. Satire is something that, in particular this country, i think, france, the uk, has a very rich and wonderful history beginning with duck soup by the marks brothers and this is a creative tragedy. This is terrible that people are going to have to watch themselves now. Now, if north korea if this is indeed north korea and they did are the means back when south park when Team America World police came out, if they did have the means, they probably would have done it, we now know. But they didnt have the means. Now they seem to have enlisted probably people from china. We dont know. We dont know that. Nbc news reporting linkage in the operational aspect and that it was outside north korea. Beyond that we just havent confirmed it. But this was a Foreign Policy attack, right . This is a cyber attack. Its valuable information. Some goes in the Public Domain and reporters can use it, but the deep question here for these companies is do they now draw a wider line like in the law we always talk about a chilling effect. If youre afraid, you dont even go near the line. Let me finish the question. Do we have a situation now in hollywood, and you talk to these folks and you cover this, where folks are going to say, we dont want to criticize iran. We dont want to criticize syria. Were talking about cuba later in the hour with a breakthrough now, but were afraid of cuba. Is that where were headed even though we think were making progress s progress . Im a critic, not an industry reporter. As a critic ive been very depressed over the last few years as, for example, the asian market has become more and more important to hollywoods bottom line. Now youre talking about 70 to 80 . The interview had already been canceled in asia. Thats a huge market where they already said were not releasing it. So they were talking about u. S. Domestic distribution at this point which was going to be a fraction of their return. They were already running scared. They already do not want to offend leaders in the major markets that they go into. And i think this is going to be the wave of the future. Already these people these people, i shouldnt say that. Already other countries are dictating the content of our films. Now, the smaller films, you know, the independent films from places like iran, from places like, you know, middle east countries and asian countries, theyre still going to come over here, theyre going to trickle over here. Briefly, though, brett said this was about fear. Do you think it was more about money or fear . No, i think it was about money. Obviously, look, they dont want people to be killed over a movie that we know ironically from the sony ads that people at sony thought this was a piece of crap. I think that almost skips the question, right . People can be killed in this country because we protect religious freedom. People can be killed because we have brave soldiers that go out and do our Foreign Policy. The notion that the new veto is going to be anonymous internet threats, that cannot stand. I mean, i think were just at the beginning of it. Its interesting because brett was talking about fear, youre talking about the commercial aspect, both very relevant. David edelstein thank you for your time tonight. The historic diplomatic breakthrough with cuba is straight ahead. For practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a germanengineered volkswagen. Like the sporty, advanced new jetta. And the 2015 motor trend car of the year allnew golf. If youre wishing for a new volkswagen this season. Just about all you need is a finely tuned. Pen. Get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first months payment on select new volkswagen models. [ inhales deeply ] [ sighs ] [ inhales ] [ male announcer ] at cvs health, we took a deep breath. [ inhales, exhales ] [ male announcer ] and made the decision to quit selling cigarettes in our cvs pharmacies. Now we invite smokers to quit, too, with our comprehensive program. We just want to help everyone, everywhere, breathe a little easier. Introducing cvs health. Because health is everything. Should africanamerican and latino young people be afraid of the police in this country . Thats what my colleague asked attorney general eric holder. His answer is up ahead. It is the biggest shift in u. S. Policy towards cuba in half a century. Coordinated broadcasts airing simultaneously today president obama and cuban president raul castro announced new steps to reestablish diplomatic relations and end decades of hostility between these two nations. We will end an outdated approach that for decades has failed to advance our interests and instead we will begin to normalize relations between our two countries. Through these changes, we intend to create more opportunities for the american and cuban people. And begin a new chapter among the nations of the americas. I do not expect the changes im announcing today to bring about a transformation of Cuban Society overnight. But i am convinced that to a policy of engagement we can more effectively stand up for our values and help the cuban people help themselves as they move into the 21st century. Under this breakthrough new agreement the United States will open an embassy in havana and reduce sanctions on banking, remittance and travel. Although the full u. S. Embargo cannot be legally lifted without a formal act of congress. The state department will start the process of removing cuba from that official list of state sponsors of terror. As part of the deal u. S. Government exchanged three cuban spies that were convicted and imprisoned here for a prisoner held in cuba for the past 20 years, a Cuban National who was an intelligence agent for the u. S. The castro government agreed to release allen gross who was convicted there, they said, the cuban, of espionage back in 2009. After serving five years in prison, separated from his family and in poor health, he returned to american soil this morning. He was escorted to the u. S. Bay group of lawmakers, with chris van hollen, jeff lake and senator leahy of vermont. Gross later gave a press conference accompanied by his wife of 44 years, judy. What a blessing it is to be a citizen of this country and thank you, mr. President mr. President , for everything that you have done. To me, cubanos or at least most of them are incredibly kind, generous and talented. It pains me to see them treated so unjustly as a consequence of two governments mutually belligerent policies. 5 1 2 decades of history show us that such belligerence inhibits better judgment. Two wrongs never make a right. Those 5 1 2 decades end today with a Historic Deal that came after a 45minute call recently between president obama and castro following nearly a year of secret talks between the american and cuban representative that occurred in canada. After intervention by, wow, yes, the pope himself who we can now report hosted a key meeting about this at the vatican in the fall. And while the prospect of diplomatic relations with the castro regime remains controversial many cuban americans are welcoming this breakthrough. The embargo and not having negotiations with cuba have only hurt the cuban people, unfortunately. This is absolutely great. Im ecstatic. I have called everyone on my contacts. This is the best news that i have heard in my entire life. Thats one heartfelt opinion there, but that opinion not shared by some of the cuban americans that serve in congress including democratic senator bob menendez of new jersey and republican ted cruz of texas and florida senator marco rubio. They strongly contend the administrations shift in policy. This president is the singleworst negotiator weve had in the white house in my lifetime who has basically given the cuban government everything it asked for and received no assurances of any advances in democracy and freedom in return. Chris van hollen from Maryland Joins me now. Good evening to you. Good evening, ari. Were just looking at that picture of you guys all together on a historic day, a bipartisan gathering. Walk us through what you did, what led up to this. Well, it was a great day. You know, for the last five years that allen gross was in prison, lots of people have been working hard to secure his release, none more so than his wife judy. And there have been lots of ups and downs over those five years but over the last couple weeks, it appeared that an agreement was beginning to gel. Monday night i got the call that it had come together and was asked to escort debe pa be pa the group that escorted allen home. When we walked into the airport in havana and saw allen gross, hes very frail and very skinny, but he had the biggest smile and i think it was his first sort of recognition that the day had finally come that hes going home. Thats one american that this is a great outcome for, a great story for those of us who have been following it all day. What about the rest of the country . People take it as a given, i think, that you cant go to cuba, that this is a zero tolerance policy. And americans have heard, i should mention, from president s in both parties for decades, that this is how it has to be, that this is a National Security matter. What changed and what about it would be good for regular americans . Well, ari, i think after 54 years of unsuccessful efforts to try and change the cuban regime, to try to bring about more freedoms by a policy of punishment and isolation, the president rightly decided that the way to go was to try engagement with the cuban people. After all, the isolation approach has only sustained the castro brothers regime. Theyve survived more than eight american president s. Right. So this approach says more contact with the cuban people, more travel, more trade, more communication will actually help build pressure to change the direction in cuba. In your view, congressman, was it more important that the change in cuba shifted away from fidel castro or the change in the United States to a president who did campaign on this kind of diplomacy . Well, i think the president was right to argue that after 54 years you could conclude that finally somethings not working. I mean, the critics of the president have to explain why another five to ten years of this policy would produce a different result than the past 54. And so the president recognized that if we really want to help empower the cuban people as opposed to empower the cuban regime, we need to fully engage. And thats what he did today. And i think, you know, the cuban government obviously was willing to take some of these steps, but i think theyre taking a big risk in the sense that more engagement and more freedom i think will increase the pressures within cuba for change. I dont expect the change from the top. But i believe a policy of engagement can help bring about change from the bottom. Well, its a remarkable historic day for the United States. I know its been a long day for you specifically congressman van hollen. Thanks for joining us. Thanks, ari, thanks for having me. Now we go right to havana where mark potter joins us. What is the reception there . Hi, ari, a lot of people are just learning about it now. This is the hour of the National News broadcast here in havana. Some people saw raul castro at noon. Word has spread throughout the island. People are processing this. Theres not a big groundswell. People taking to the streets, pounding pots and pans. But i think its safe to say that people are very engaged by this. They think this is good news. For years and years we heard people here in cuba say they would like to see relations with the United States improve. They think this would improve their lives. Most people in this country, have lived under nothing but tense relations between their government and the u. S. Government and theyd like to see that change. So there is hope here particularly among the young people that this new opening, these new diplomatic relationships will lead to better economic openings and some political openings. Sure. And mark they think this is theyre looking at this positively. How did raul castro sell it today there . It was interesting. He was very conciliatory. While waiting to go through customs here, i had some visa problem, but they were solved. I got a chance to watch his speech. He was very conciliatory. He was praising president obama, and he urged the cuban people to do the same. And to give him a break and to listen to what he had to say. He said there are still core problems, core differences between the cuban government and the u. S. Government over the issue of what they call the blockade here, we call the embargo, over the issue of human rights. But he said theres a new format for discussing it. And so thats how he sold it. A very, very conciliatory raul castro in a format weve not seen him in talking to the nation at noon at the same time the u. S. President was talking. A very rare and newsworthy event here. Thats one thing that a lot of people in both countries would find surprising, seeing their leaders explain and defend this. Mark potter, thanks for your reporting. What does what happened with cuba today mean for all the people who want to do, they say, a better job than president obama . Well talk about that straight ahead. In. Only nicorette gum has patented dualcoated technology for great taste. Plus nicorette gum gives you intense craving relief. And that helps put my craving in its place. Thats why i only choose nicorette. We givecold symptoms. Om your you give them the giggles. 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Sfx blowing sound. Does breathing with copd. Weigh you down . Dont wait ask your doctor about spiriva handihaler. The policy details of todays cuban deal are complicated but the domestic politics are simple. As tim russert once said it comes down to florida, florida, florida. 70 of cuban americans live in florida. A hard line on cuba has been a part of gop relations with cuba. Its why you hear so much tough rhetoric on this from gop president ial candidates like this debate in the sunshine state. This is a serious threat. Its a threat that ive been talking about for six or seven years and one thats not going to go away until we confront the threat. This president has taken a very dangerous course with regards to cuba saying were going to relax relations, were going to open up travel to cuba. This is the wrong time for that with this kind of heroics going on. We want to stand with people of cuba that want freedom. A gingrich president will not tolerate four more years of this dictatorship. Thats why you heard strong condemnations today from 2016 candidates like marco rubio, and ted cruz. This is yet another manifestation of the 235failuref the obama, kerry Foreign Policy. For six years we followed the pattern of alienating and abandoning our friends and allies and at the same time coddling up to and appeasing those who are enemies of this country. Thats not exactly what appeasing means but well get to that later. But theres a new generation of cuban americans that have reached the voting age. And the politics have shifted even in florida. In 2012 the cuban american vote flipped in florida for the first time. President obama won it at 49 . In one poll of cuban americans in floridas miami dade county, 68 supported reestablishing diplomatic relations and at age 29 and under that number jumped to 88 . Joining me now is former counsel to House Democratic leadership on Foreign Policy with latin america. Good evening. Good evening. Great to be here. Youve been working on these issues a long time. What do you make of this and how important it is that the politics have changed . Well, i could not be happier with the announcement from the president today. Its something that really is quite emotional for me and for my cuban American Family because weve been waiting decades for an american president to announce a pro family policy. To allow me to visit my family more often and send remittances and this Christmas Season send christmas gifts. Most americans take that for granted but for decades its been sort of illegal for us to send gifts to our families, for Jewish Americans to send hanukkah gifts. Its a policy that americans have been sticking to for five decades pretending it would bring some sort of change and refusing to adjust to reality. Let me ask you, though, president obama won running on exactly this kind of proposal. Why hasnt that yet shifted republicans who want to beat him. I think the republicans have some bad strategists on this issue. They are still listening to diazbalart. Theyre still listening to marco rube yoi, theyre still listening to that canadian ted cruz. And the problem is that they dont speak for me. They dont speak for my cuban American Family. And they dont speak for a majority of cuban american voters. Let me get your reaction to something, since you mentioned it, that marco rubio said today. Speaking of odd strategy, his criticism of the pope on this issue. Take a listen. My understanding is that the influence was on the relief of mr. Gross, which ive not criticized. As ive said im happy that hes with the cuban people. I would ask his holiness to take up the case of freedom and democracy which is critical for a free people for a people to truly be free. What did you make of that . I am catholic like most cuban americans. Im a to be honest, im a twice a year catholic, but with this new pope im considering going a lot more often because i think hes done a phenomenal job on so many issues including this one, and im thrilled with the role that the pope played in bringing forward this deal that is a pro family deal that will bring people together, that will bring change in cuba, that promotes democracy, freedom, fairness. I think to criticize the pope is absurd on this point. You know, tico, im not catholic and i was almost offended for the pope. Its weird to say. He doesnt advance freedom especially this pope. Thank you so as much. Thank you. President obamas story about how he was once mistaken for a valet and attorney general eric holders reaction to all these recent reports of how police are interacting with minority youths. Thats straight ahead. Discover card. I just received a text from discover hq . Yep. 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Im pushing it real good i have a cold with terrible chest congestion. I better take something. Theraflu severe cold doesnt treat chest congestion. Really . New alkaseltzer plus day powder rushes relief to your worst cold symptoms plus chest congestion. [breath of relief] oh, what a relief it is. President obama in a brand new interview with People Magazine which reaches 40 million readers talks about his experience with racial prejudice including the time he was mistaken for a valet. Theres no black man my age who is a professional who hasnt come out of a strunt and is waiting for their car and somebody didnt hand their them car keys. The new interview comes one week after the president released his thoughts on renewed interactions between minorities and the police and what its done to longheld concerns from minority communities. The fact is that what weve seen now on videotape because it used to be folks would say, well, maybe blacks are exaggerating, maybe it was some of these situations arent what they describe, but weve now seen on television, for everybody to see. And now this is new, attorney general eric holder was just asked a similar question between interactions between minorities and the police with the activist who sat down on the replica of the bus. And they were asked if africanamerican latino young people who be afraid of the police. Were not at a stage where i can truthfully say that if you are a person of color you should not be concerned about my interaction that you have with the police in the same way that i cant say to a police officer, you shouldnt worry about what community you are being asked to operate in and so there is work that our nation has to do. Its what the president has asked me to do in going around the nation and having these interactions, and its what we are as an administration committed to doing, to Building Trust that does not now exist but that has to exist, it has to exist. Im struck in listening to you by the words of a Deputy Attorney general going back to about the year 2000, 2001, in a similar case in new york, amadou diallo, a young west african immigrant who was shot in the vestibule of his own apartment. At that time that Deputy Attorney general eric holder issued a memoranda explaining why there was not going to be a federal prosecution of the officers who were acquitted in that killing. At that time you said there was a sense of mistrust between black communities and police that needed to be bridged, trust need o be built up. What does it say that we are essentially in the same exact place now so many years later . It means that we as a nation have failed. Its as simple as that, we have failed. We have understood that these issues have existed even long before that 2001 memorandum by this then young Deputy Attorney general. These are issues weve been dealing with for generations. This is why we need to seize this opportunity we now have. We have a moment in time that we can perhaps come up with some meaningful change. Its what im committed to doing even with the limited time i have left as attorney general and ill do it after i leave office. You can see joys full interview with eric holder tomorrow on the reid report, thats 2 00 p. M. Eastern on msnbc. The fallout continues from the smoking guns report in the ferguson grand jury. It might notice be something you have seen at Michael Browns shooting, an attorney for the Michael Brown family will be here ahead. Are co2 emissions reduced . Up to 30 . 45 . 60 . The answer is. Up to 60 less. And thats a big reason why the u. S. Is a world leader in reducing co2 emissions. Take the energy quiz round 2. Energy lives here. 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Just about all you need is a finely tuned. Pen. Get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first months payment on select new volkswagen models. For people trying to make sense of this tonight, what are you going to do about this . Is there a filing or an action youre considering taking . Absolutely. Weve talked to his family about this all day. And we do believe that this should go before a judge, and she should consider setting aside this grand jurys decision based on the information that was presented by this prosecutor and especially this witness and other things. That was brown family Attorney Benjamin Crump saying he hopes to have the ferguson grand jury decision sed set aside. That comes after new reporting from the smoking gun website on witness 40 identifying her as a woman with, quote, a criminal past who has a history of making racist remarks and once insinuated herself into another high profile st. Louis criminal case with claims that police eventually dismissed as a complete fabrication. Keep in mind this is the same witness who, by her account, in journal pages that were given to the grand jury wrote she witnessed the shooting of Michael Brown and in the final moments of his life, quote, the cop just stood there and dang if that kid didnt start running right at the cop like a Football Player head down, end quote. If you follow this story that quote may be familiar. It made witness 40 a favorite on fox news, which repeated that quote. Like a Football Player. All the time. The reason witness 40 was brought before the grand jury because she was brought by bob mcculloch. His office called her despite this amble evidence weve seen that witness 40 may not have witnessed browns death at all. Weve not heard back on this one. Joining me now is anthony gray, the attorney for the family of Michael Brown. Good evening to you, sir. Good evening, sir. What is the takeaway here beyond the fact that some people may find this completely unfair and suspicious that this person was put before the grand jury, what is the legal takeaway for you . The legal takeaway is that it just gives us the sense that the entire process was fraught with this kind of irrelevant, inconsistent information all uploaded into the minds of the jury, the jury panel, which did not need to hear all this information overload. You know, what this also tells me is that the narrative about mike brown jr. Charging Darren Wilson was out there in the Public Domain within 24 hours after this incident. Once that narrative got out there, apparently this witness wanted to latch hold to it and to support Darren Wilson in this incident. And so it shows me that as well that this narrative was out there well before officer wilson even testified about it because she was repeating verbatim as to what he testified later to the grand jury. Thats the most important takeaway i get out of it. When you see the talk about setting aside the grand jury, are you going to try to do that and what would be your basis for that . We think that, number one, the lawyers on the mike brown team, do not feel that we would be the best advocates for voiding this grand jury decision. We think that a Public Interest group would probably serve a greater good in disassociated with the underlining cause of action. We dont want to seem as though were vested in this outcome of it because we think its more of a Public Interest right thats being pursued as opposed to an individual right for mike brown. Youre hoping that an independent group would intercede or make some legal motion that would call into question why the prosecutor might have put someone who was so noncredible or had this history before the grand jury . Exactly. And we think that that along with the improper legal instructions, along with some other irregularities and its pretty obvious when you read the grand jury transcripts, i mean, its gut wrenching just to read and just kind of get a sense that how the prosecutors were advocating for officer wilson throughout the process. You know, you kind of lose your sense of what they were actually there to do when you read the transcripts. So yeah, were hoping that some outside group will take an interest in it and ask judge mcshane to void the grand jury decision, impanel another grand jury and allow for a special prosecutor to present the evidence in the case the second time. Anthony gray, thank you for being with us tonight. No problem. Thank you. And the one time its actually a good thing when the politician says hes not a scientist. Thats next. You dont need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible. Because we do. Were exxonmobil and powering the world responsibly is our job. 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But it is ironically the goto republican excuse for rejecting the overwhelming Scientific Consensus on Climate Change. Today Governor Cuomo offered a mirror version but in this case he used the im not a scientist line as a decision to listen to the scientists and not ignore them. Is it a great job generator or is it a danger to Public Health or the environment . And my answer has been i dont know. And its not what i do. I am not a scientist. Im not an environmental expert. Im not a health expert. All things being equal, i will be bound by what the experts say. Because i am not in a position to second guess them with my expertise. Joining me now is josh fox, director and producer of gasland county gasland. Hes in the amazon but wanted to make time for a Big Development in this battle. What specifically does todays news mean for this movement nationwide . This is gigantic. First of all, i have to do this and put on my yankees hat. Nice, great. And in the peruvian amazon with amazon watch doing reporting on oil spills. Look, this cant be underestimated. This is gigantic, this is huge. This has been a seven, eightyear battle in new york state. And it st a huge victory for science exactly what we just what your segment just gave us into. Listen, when i started investigating fracking in 2008 there was no Peer Reviewed science. There were no scientific papers. What we have seen in the last several years is an explosion of peerreviewed science, one scientific paper coming out now per day. Were at 400 and counting. Those scientific papers say 96 of them or so that there is a health risk to fracking. In the 90th percentile say theres a huge risk for air pollution. 75 of them say that there are risks of water contamination. So all the things that weve been reporting on, that the citizens have been reporting on, that this movement which has been driven by people in their own backwards in colorado, texas, wyoming, pennsylvania, new york, has been substantiated by the science and Governor Cuomo, thank you so much for listening to the science, for heeding the science and for doing something which, frankly, no one expected and we were all settling in for the long haul. But this is precedent setting across the world. This is an enormous moment for Antifracking Movement and all people who are fighting against Climate Change and fighting the fossil fuel energy. Josh, as you were speaking, we were showing some of the footage including what you might call the anecdotal science of water coming out of the faucet that then is semiflammable. Something youve reported on. Let me play for you as well new York Health Commissioner dr. Howard zucker since you mentioned what do we know and how do we know it. Take a listen to what he said today. Until the Public Health red flags are answered through longterm studies, public surveys with Large Population pools showing that the risks for Public Health are avoidable or sufficiently low, i cannot support high volume hydraulic fracturing in the great state of new york. He didnt go as far as you did. He said we dont know enough but until we do theres a safety burden on the industry here to wait and not get in and not get to do all this stuff until we know its safe for our water and our communities. What hes doing is reversing the burden of proof. The burden of proof should be on the fracking industry to prove that they are safe, but what has been the case over the last ten years in the United States is that the burden of proof has been on the citizens. Citizens can in no way really prove like, you know, we can light our water on fire because of fracking. The industry can prove that. The science can prove that. What weve seen right now is that that is no longer anecdotal. We know that the industrys own science shows that methane migration happens at very high rates, but it is the citizens and the grass roots themselves. This is an enormous victory for the hundreds of antifracking organizations in new york, mom and pop organizations that started around kitsch tables five people at a time. This is community meetings. These are the people who pushed the scientists to go ahead and do these josh, a victory on an issue that you worked a lot on and a victory for doing live tv from an internet cafe in the amazon. Thank you so much. Were out of time. Thats all in for this evening. You can email me. The Rachel Maddow show starts now. From the peruvian amazon, that was awesome. Well done, ari. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. If youre a civil servant, if you have a white collar job working for the federal government, this is what you get paid. Its a little chart they update every january. Its the Civil Service pay scale. And it shows, like in this matrix form basically, how your pay goes up as you move from lower ranking jobs to higher ranking jobs and you gain more and more experience within each rank. So the lowest rank, the lowest grade for a Civil Service employee is a grade 1. They call it gs1. Gs stands for general schedule, i think, because this is such a basic part of what it means to work for the government. A