And that spokes personal joins me live when all in starts right now. Good evening from washington. 16 hours away in a cafe in downtown sydney, australia came just after 2 00 a. M. Local time. [ gunfire ] the scene there, police saying they decided to make that risky entrance to the building after gunshots were heard coming from inside the cafe. Several officers were seen fleeing from the scene. After it was over, three people were dead, including two of the 17 hostages a 34yearold man and a 38yearold woman. Six other people, including a Police Officer, were injured. The gunman has been identified as a selfdeclared sheik from iran. He was granted political asylum back in 1996. And this was not his First Encounter with Law Enforcement. Monus was facing multiple accusations of assault and is being charged with accessory to murder of his exwife. His poformer lawyer describing monus to the Australian Broadcasting company. Monas seized the chocolate cafe right after rush hour on monday morning. Hostages were forced to raise a islamic flag. It is not the same as the black flag of isis seen in those grizzly videos from iraq and syria. Still, some initially feared there was a link to former paris groups. He sauought to clout his actions with the symbolism of the isil death cult. Tragically, there are people in our Community Ready to engage in politically motivated violence. Defense officials tell nbc news there is no evidence the gunman had any connection to isis. And theyre so declined to characterize any part of this siege as an act of terror. Nbc news correspondent halley jackson. When you looked at the scene today, you had some hostages actually escaping why it was still underway in that dramatic footage. What was underway there . Where heere about a block from where all of this happened. Its about two city blocks where its closed off to the public and theres still a Police Presence here. People are walking by, where theyre able to walk by, watching, looking, taking this all in today. And were learning more about what exactly went on inside the cafe. We know it was 7 hours into the crisis, five hostages managed to escape. A few hours later, the lights went out. At 2 00 a. M. , the hostages ran for their lives. They heard gunfire in the cafe and that is why they moved in in the shooting after police stormed the building. The gunman was ill killed, so were two hostages. Halley, we know one of the big differences between murder and terrorism is the motive and the Political Goals involved when it is terror. What do you know about these reports some social media posts by this individual . Reportedly, the hosages were forced to use facebook and youtube to pass on demands from the gunman. This was not a surprise to australian officials. They said, theres no place on earth that doesnt have access to social media. That is something if ytheyre s trying to up ravel and pinpoint what may have been the motive for this. Briefly, what is the mood there now . You know, quiet contemplation, i might say. We got here a few hours ago. After flying in from the west coast. And, remember,this place is incredibly busy. Its a very active place to be. So people are arnold. Civilians, theres also a very heavy Police Presence and a heavy media presence, as well. It seems as though australians are coming to grips with what happened and starting to grieve the process of grieving the lives lost. Yes, certainly a very tough scene there. Thanks for your reporting in sydney. In october, gunman storms a Parliament Building and then, the very next day, as you may remember, there was a hatchet attack only new York City Police officers, a seemingly random act of violence that the f. B. I. Actually formally dez ig nated an act of terror. Now we see the scenes in australia, a hostage scene with some kind of illusions of grandeur and clearly a rap sheet. Now, isis has directly encouraged sympathizers around the world to take action. We know that. The groups chief spokesman recently calling on supporters in the west to initiate attacks inside these western nations. Theyre saying you dont need to travel to syria to be effective to be a warrior for us. You can take the fight to the citizens in your own country, specifically they did put the order out to, you know, carry out attacks and say the civilian population is in play. So do whatever you can do, basically, energizing these lone wolf wanttobes to take action. E. Good morning, ari. I want to start with that idea there. You know, inspire is a fuzzy word when youre doing this kind of terrorist security inquiry. And, yet, it is part of, as weve been reporting what isis is about, in some cases, inspiring people who may have no direct link. What can you tell us from your reporting about where this fits in on that spectrum . Ill think this is an individual who falls in on the end of that spectrum that is very loose, if not absolute zero affiliation with the organization to he has a criminal back ground. A lot of mental instability, according to the prime minister. I think this is an individual who falls on the spectrum of least likely, if you will, to be asoeszuated with these types of organizations. What we do see, and exactly to quote the words of the australian prime minister, he is an individual with a troubled past who has cloaked himself in the ideology and is giving this a very different flavor. At the core of it, it is a person who seems to be mentally deranged and has not only a criminal past, but is also involved in the suspected killing of his exwife. I think the real question leer, and i this this is something that australian journalists would be posing to the officials there, why is this individual out on bail . An individual suspected of murder allowed to roam free and create this kind of havoc. Everyone remembers the era of post9 11 with orange alerts. People saying today theres not any elevated risks or threats here taking obviously scenes that are terrible for folks in australia and Anyone Around the world watching. But giving a more stable reaction, state side. Whats the point of that . Well, the bottom line is that they know that this is an individual who probably has zero affiliation to anything on their terrorism watch list. They probably did a very thorough back ground check, checked his names and realizes that he poses no threat, has no affiliations and then could be reflected in some capacity in a threat way, or a threat capacity to the United States. The bottom line is theyre looking at it from the perspective of a lone wolf. No reason for us here at home to take it to make us change our security postures. All eyes were on sydney today. We want to turn to something that was state side in pennsylvania. A massive man hunt still underway. After a gunman shot and killed six people overnight, joined live now from harleysville, pennsylvania. I can tell you that this tragedy unfolded in three communities outside of philadelphia, about 30 miles outside of philadelphia. The victims, authorities tell us, were all known to the suspect. We have video we want to share with you we want to share with a s. W. A. T. Team earlier today that they thought the suspect was inside. But in the search for the suspect, 35yearold bradly williams, Authorities Say they came up empty handed. As we stand here right now, we do not know where he is. We do not have vehicle information. We actually recovered his vehicle and his personal cell phone. So we do not have information about how he might be traveling. Authorities say stone went on a deadly shooting spree, including his exwife, as well as his exwifes sister, her husband, their 14yearold, grandmother and the couples 17yearold son was injured. At this point, authorities tell us that stone is an iraq war veteran. He was discharged in 2011. Tonight, he is being searched authorities are searching for him in connection with these six murders. Undoubtedly, a tough story there. Thank you for your reporting in marysville, pennsylvania. We do appreciate it. Turning to some interesting news in policy and politics. You may have seen some of this. Dick cheney was on meet the press yesterday with some defensive torture that you have to see in order to believe. That is next. Holidays in a germanengineered volkswagen. Like the sporty, advanced new jetta. And the 2015 motor trend car of the year allnew golf. If youre wishing for a new volkswagen this season. Just about all you need is a finely tuned. Pen. Get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first months payment on select new volkswagen models. Wow [ narrator ] on a mission to get richard to his campbells chunky soup. Its new chunky beerncheese with beef and bacon soup. I love it. And mama loves you. And mama loves you. Hey so im looking at my bill, and my fico® Credit Scores on here. We give you your fico® score each month for free awesomesauce wow the only person i know that says that is. Lisa . Julie . at discover, we treat you like youd treat you. Get the it card and see your fico® credit score. You dont find al franken on National Television much these days. He did talk with me on Silicon Valley privacy views. His thoughts on the incoming majority leader mitch mcconnell. Looking towards the next congress, yeah, senator mcconnell is going to take the helm. How is your relationship with him . What do you do to try to get him to hold votes on your legislation . Well, whats interesting is he has promised a more open process, he says. Votes on amendments, et cetera. Well see. I dont know. I dont know if anyone knows. I dont know if he knows. Would you call him a good friend . Or a best friend . More the kind of thing we will argue on the floor but then go out to dinner and just laugh . Yeah . No. That doesnt happen. That doesnt happen. Franken had a lot more the say about mcconnell and the next election. You can see the entire interview when it airs for the first time, thats tomorrow, 3 00 p. M. Eastern on the cycle i will light up every room i walk into. Olay presents the regenerist luminous collection. Renews surface cells to even skin tone. In just two weeks, see pearlescent, luminous skin. Regenerist luminous. Olay. Your best beautiful. Introducing. A pm pain reliever that dares to work all the way until. The am. New aleve pm the only one to combine a safe sleep aid plus the 12 hour strength of aleve. Dickcheney said he is not a doctor. He insists that the c. I. A. s enhanced Interrogation Program do meet the standard of illegal torture were all legal because his lawyers told him so. You can look for various definitions. We did what was, in fact, required to make certain that going forward, we were not violating the law. And the law, as interpreted by the council, is very clear. Its true that the Bush Administration got the limg slags to authorize some techniques that was legal. So the best defense cheney has today relies on invalid, discredited torture memos from a long time ago. Cheneys answer was who cares . Im more concerned with bad guys who got out and released than i am with a few that, in fact, were innocent. 25 turned out to be the innocent. Where are you going to draw the line . Are you okay with that margin . I have no problem as long as we achieve our objective. Joining me now, a public ser vant a little closer to the action. Really an honor to have you here. My pleasure. First, your thoughts of cheneys defense there . It wasnt much of a defense. I certainly, if i was him had this came out, i would try to dissemble the way he did. But, yeah, its clearly, i think, for republicans, its the choice. Do you side with dick cheney or ronald reagan. Jack goldsmith, who served in that bush department, didnt quite agree with this whole thing. Let me play some of that sound right now these came to my attention. I thought they had a lot of lawyers in them. So its a combination of the errors and the really excessively broad claims in the opinions that led me to take steps to withdraw them. What should our brave folks in the c. I. A. Do when they get that kind of pseu pseudoauthorization . Accountability ought to be at the top it should start from the white house and percolate down from there. There was other members of the administration that pushed back that said john knew and jay bobi had been wrong. But the white house just set those people aside and they cherry picked and are trying to use it now as cover to cover up war crimes. I thought the report was devastating to the idea that if you get a permission slip from your lawyer, that automatically covers you. The report shows how there was so much misdirection and deceit toward those lawyers. If your lawyer tells you hes going to build a deck, it doesnt keep you out of court. At the time, with the. C. I. A. Getting mad that bush was saying that they were treating people inhumanely. Let me play that. Take for example water boarding. Unlike world war ii where the japanese attempted to drown people, here, the feet were elevated so theres little or no chance of any fluid getting into the lungs and very careful standards set in place so that these would help break the resistance of the detainee without placing their life in danger. I want to be absolutely clear with our people and the world, the United States does not torture. Its against our laws. And its against our values. I have no authorized it. And i will not authorize it. Last year, my administration worked with senator john mccain and i signed into law the detainee treatment act, which established the legal standards for treatment of detainees where ever they are held. The report shows what did you make of this that the cia didnt want bush saying those things . Yeah, i think they were very uncomfortable about it. I think its important to remember, the c. I. A. Largely con tracted this effort out. It was primarily civilians that carried out the program. Many people became millionaires off of this program. Now i saw an interview with john hubert who said look, i was just a lawyer. I didnt make decisions. And the president said look, im no lawyer. I just know what the lawyers said. No one is accountable for making the road to torture. You said no one is accountable. Did the c. I. A. Fire brennan . Thats a tough one. I admire brennan when he said there was no connection and then finding Osama Bin Laden a decade later. But, certainly, there ought to be accountability. The president cant stick with this im going to look forward and not back. We have an obligation to investigate allegations of tourture. Colonel morris, thank you very much. Next up, were going to talk bill cosby. His wife going on the record to defend her husband in the wake of more than two dozen women accusing him of Sexual Assault. Stay with us. You dont need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible. Because we do. Were exxonmobil and powering the world responsibly is our job. Because boiling an egg. Isnt as simple as just boiling an egg. Life takes energy. Energy lives here. Many americans who have prescriptions fail to stay on them. Thats why we created programs which encourage people to take their medications regularly. So join us as we raise a glass to everyone who remembered today. Bottoms up, america. 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I most certainly didnt think of my legacy as being first African American model to grease the cover of vogue and drugged by bill cosby. She said 245 portrait of a man she does not know. She compares this scandal to the now discredited Rolling Stone article about an alleged gang rape at the university of virginia. None of us, she says, ever want to be in the position of attacking a victim. But the questions should be asked who is the victim . Bill cosbys lawyer has consistently denied the allegations and the comedian has never been charged with a crime. But two women are now suing cosby. Anne thompson, nbc news, new york. And we will be right back. And cialis for daily useor you. Helps you be Ready Anytime the moment is right. Cialis is also the only daily ed tablet approved to treat symptoms of bph, like needing to go frequently. Tell your doctor about all your medical conditions and medicines, and ask if your heart is healthy enough for sex. 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I better take something. Theraflu severe cold doesnt treat chest congestion. Really . New alkaseltzer plus day powder rushes relief to your worst cold symptoms plus chest congestion. [breath of relief] oh, what a relief it is. Back in august, a 22yearold black man named john crawford, iii entered a wall mart. He was with his girlfriend and picked up a realistic air rifle which was readily available on the store shefling. As this Surveillance Footage shows, crawford then walked around the walmart with that unloaded air rifle in his hand. A shopper called the police saying a black man was Walking Around with a gun in the store adding hes, like, pointing it at people. Now, later, the caller admitted that crawford did not point the rifle at anyone. In fact, you can see Crawford Holding it while talking on the phone with mostly people going about their business nearby. It is disturbing, Armed Police Officers prompted by that information, they enter searching for him. When they found him, crawford appears to drop the air rifle and take cover. And, according to the special prosecutor in this case, police had shot him before he dropped it. Crawford them runs back into the aisle and collapses. The police shot him twice, wounds that resulted in his death. Police say he ignored commands to put down the air rifle. And a grand jury declined to indict the officers in september. Like so many other cases around the nation right now, it is not only the outcome here thats concerning to many people. Its many of the basic steps in our criminal justice process that are now subject to a little bit of extra scrutiny. Now, after this shooting, Police Question crawfords girlfriend, tascha thomas, who had been elsewhere in the store during the incident. The Guardian Newspaper has published a portion for the first time this weekend. It shows detective rodney curd aggressively questioning thomas, according to the guardian, the interrogation went on for more than an hour and a half. And it wasnt until the end that curd even told thomas that crawford had died that day. As a result of his actions, hes gone, said the detective, as she slumped in her chair and cried. The video shows curd pushing tom mass where her boyfriend got this rifle and suggests shes not telling the truth. Detective curd also presses more on intoxication of that issue. Attorney, anthony incredibly i can only imagine what it was video, what view of the way the officer very unexplanatory. It was really uncalled for. I stated several times that i had nothing to do with it. Did you feel that they were keeping you informed about what happened to your boyfriend there . Did you feel like you were being victim . Happened, im still being questioned to or if i would ever see him they rob answer, you but what was your reaction when after all of this and this interrogation and then they told you for the first time that he longer make plans for give us your think theres multiple tasha and john smores for a her, seconddegree or a she wasnt treated with any kind decision that Joan Crawford had done something they were accusatory from the her, no on this . Gotten worse since the thought they highly dangerous of what happened that day, did they have reason to believe that mr. Crawford was a threat there . Do you think they took enough time to figure that out . No. You know, ari, they did not give him any time to respond. There were no shots being fired. None of the store pers nel alerted Law Enforcement with shots fired. We continue to hear Police Responded to active shots fired. There was no active shooter. Law enforcement asked him to put lives were in jeopardy, but, clearly, thats not what anthony, thank you for your for you telling us part of your story yesterday during pregame introductions. Now the head of the Cleveland Police patrolmans association is demanding an apology. We will have that Police Perspective straight ahead. Protected. Given new hope. During the subaru share the love event, subaru owners feel it, too. Because when you take home a new subaru, we donate 250 dollars to helping those in need. Well have given 50 Million Dollars over seven years. Love. Its what makes a subaru, a subaru. Right now, you can get a single line with 3 gigs for 65 a month. 3 gigs. Is that a lot . Thats about. 100 app downloads, 45 hours of streaming music, and 6 hours of video playing. singing and five golden rings ha, i see what you did. singing four calling birds. Three french hens. the guys starts to fizzle out two. Turtle. Doves. I really went for it there ya you did. You really, really did now get 3 gigs of data on one line for 65 a month. Switch to at t, buy a new smartphone and get 150 credit per line. For the weekend, tens of thousands of people protested nationwide. We have a report from the ground straight ahead. The Holiday Season is here, which means its time for the volkswagen signthendrive event. For practically just your signature, you could drive home for the holidays in a germanengineered volkswagen. Like the sporty, advanced new jetta. And the 2015 motor trend car of the year allnew golf. If youre wishing for a new volkswagen this season. Just about all you need is a finely tuned. Pen. Get zero due at signing, zero down, zero deposit, and zero first months payment on select new volkswagen models. On monday, the president of the citys police union called nfl player andrew hawkins, pa thetic for wearing a tshirt protesting two police killings. Hawkins did not apologize for wearing a red shirt saying justice for tamir rice. Rice was shot last month while carrying a pellet gun. Crawford, 22, was shot in that walmart while holding an air rifle. The Cleveland Lewis e Police Union Head not only disagreed with herks akins statement, but argued that athletes have no right weighs in at all. Earlier today, hawkins, himself, defended his decision. My mom taught me my entire life to respect Law Enforcement. I have family, Close Friends who are incredible Police Officers. I tell them all of the time how they are much braver than me for it. Unfortunately, my mom also told me that just as there are good Police Officers, there are some not so good Police Officers who would assume the worst of me without knowing anything about me for reasons i cant control. As you all know, and its well documented, i have a twoyearold little boy. That little boy is my entire world. The number one reason for me wearing the tshirt was the thought of what happened to tamir rice happening to my little austin scares the living hell out of me. And my heart was broken for the parents of tamir and john crawford, knowing they had to live that nightmare of a reality. And, as hawkins talked about his respect for Law Enforcement, he did not back down from that original statement. To me, justice means that the innocent should be found nent. It means that those who do i dont think should get their due punishment. Ultimately, it mereans fair treatment. So a call for justice shouldnt o if he believffend or disrespe. A call for justice shouldnt warrant an apology. Joining me now is president of the Cleveland Police patrolmans association. Good emping to you. You see the statement right there. Why should he or anyone have to apologize for stating their sincere views on Police Conduct . Hes calling for justice on two officers that were called to do their job with a man that had a gun inside a park that they had to defend themselves and use deadly force on him. Its snot a ca ees not a call. They were justified. Cleveland Police Officers worked with the Cleveland Browns hand in hand. But, okay, you guys ds agree on that. Why should he apologize to you. Why shouldnt you apologize to him . Theres a disagreement about the facts of the case and how to proceed . Well, were not apologizing to anybody. Calling for justice on two of our officers, theyre disrespecting our officers on a job we do hard every day and a job that two officers were put in a position due to a males actions. In the statement, you talk about providing surveying and providing security for the stadium. How is that relevant . Well, a lot of Police Officers work there. We are with the browns organization. Are you implying that its relevant somehow . Are you implying that that security would change because of a disagreement . No, we wouldnt change. Were here for the community. Were here for the people that go to the browns games. Were here for the public. And when you say, as we read your statement, doesnt know the facts or the law, how do you apply that logic . Wouldnt that apply to any citizen who may not be a Police Expert but who has some legitimate view of Police Conduct . Dont you think at a certain point this kind of reaction risks certain folks not thinking theyre acountable to public views . You know, theres a video of this. And everything speaks for itself. Their action, the males action spoke for itself. I mean, the video clearly showed, and by the officers statement, that they were justified in the deadly force. Youre saying the video shows em nent lethal threat to the officers . Oh, absolutely. I dont know if you didnt see it, but absolutely. Yeah, we have some of it up on the screen. Theres tremendous e tremendous disagreement about that. Unless there was lethal threat to the officers. But, ultimately, that isnt your call, is it . And its not the athletes call. Thats a call that has to go through the criminal justice system. I guess what im trying to get at here, from your statements, and the reason why theyve up set some people, is that your statements seem to presuppose that the police union or the Police Officers have the final word on the facts here. You know thats not true. You know we have a section of the grand juries and the criminal justice process. And people are free to talk about it . Theyre free to talk about it. But it shouldnt be talked on a football field where we are supporting the browns by doing security. Every day when we support the browns. Are you saying this is what im trying to understand. You said before this wouldnt change your approach. Why does your security that you provide and police bravely provide security for entire cities, stadiums or not. Why would that affect his free speech rights . Youre really not answering that question . He can voice his opinion. And thats fine. But im just saying that calling for justice for his opinion on what happened that day, hes wrong. Thats what im clearly stating. And these two were cleared by a city prosecutor already. This shooting was gist filled. Like i said, its a tragedy that it was a 12yearold, but it was justified. So, to be clear, if youre saying that he can state it, are you withdrawing the request for an apology . Or he can state it but has to also apologize . Im not saying im not withdrawing anything. He disrespected Police Officers who are out there doing our job. Hes surrounded by Police Officers. Youre going to talk about two of us that were put in a situation like these two were, youre talking about all of us. And what do you think on just a more human level, if i can ask you. I heard your statement talking about his child and his fears and a lot of people talking about that conversation and the country. Does your heart go out to people who are worried about their children, unarmed, losing their lives in these kind of incidents. It depends on what youre saying unarmed. This male was e wasnt unarmed. He thought he had a gun and he thought hes 20 years old. If hes 20 years old, were not sitting here today. Sure. But youre well aware of other cases outside of your city. What do you think of the concern that people have that folks are being killed in some cases . How about this. Listen to Police Officers commands, listen to what we tell us tell you, and just stop. I think that e limb nates a lot of problem. I have kids, too. They know how to respect the law. They know what to do when a Police Officer comes up. They think the nation needs to realize that. We tell you to do something, do it. If youre wrong, youre wrong. If youre right, youre right and the courts will figure it out. I appreciate you joining me tonight. Thank you. Over the weekend, more protiszs over those killings of unarmed black men by Police Officers. Well have another up date on that issue next. For respawn, building the best Interactive Entertainment blae this is titanfall, the first multiplayer game built and run on microsoft azure. Empowering gamers around the world to interact in ways they never thought possible. This cloud turns data into excitement. This is the microsoft cloud. You dont need to think about the energy that makes our lives possible. Because we do. Were exxonmobil and powering the world responsibly is our job. Because boiling an egg. Isnt as simple as just boiling an egg. Life takes energy. Energy lives here. Ah, h it. Push it. P. Push it real good ow oooh baby baby. Baby baby. If youre saltnpepa, you tell people to push it. Push it real good. Its what you do. Ah. Push it. 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Look here, daddy, im never coming back. Discover the new spirit of cadillac and the best offers of the season. Lease this 2015 standard collection ats for around 329 a month. Why do i cook for the to share with family to carry on traditions to come together, even when were apart in stuffing, mashed potatoes, gravy, and more, swanson® makes holiday dishes delicious . Good ef evening. We just had a discussion with Jeffrey Folmer who made a lot of waves as the police chief there. He stated firm on his view that these athletes grow us and his members and apology for talking about justice in these cases to tamir rice. Look. A, i can appreciate where the police yun and the police may be coming from on this. But, b, and this is the important part, the athletes do not owe anyone aban apology. Number one, they have the freedom to express themselves. We have seen in the past in our countrys athletic sports history of athletes dem straiting publicly their views on very important topics to the american people. Why should this be any different . Particularly given that these are young, black men who, themselves, have come through environments and e and cultures and systems that theyve been challenged in. So they know what this 12yearold or, you know, abe an 18yearold in the case of a michael brown, has gone through and resulted in tragedy. So theyve seen this. So for him to express it publicly, i think is something for those of us who sort of benignly go through a sporting event and think about oh, you know, how much touchdowns the athletes will get. Sort of get clued in that these guys are more than that. Theyre raising an important issue that were thinking about. Professor dyson, what did you think . Absolutely right. I thought that if this is representative of the Police Perspective, and this guy obviously, as a human being, we can say, i dont know him, but this seems seems like a decent human being. Youre so dangerous and problematic. You hide behind an innocence and then you project a kind of invincibility that is good when youre in the heat of battle. But horrible when it comes to admitting that you need to be self refleblgtive and consider the opposite view. Lets pause on that. You talk about being reflective. These cases, that they knew all of the facts and done their fact finding. Its not only wrong, but that anyone who disagrees with them, owes them an apology, a big question is he speaks for the union. He doesnt speak for, of course, the actual Government Police wing. But they work together. I want to play it especially for folks just joining us. This was, moments ago, president of Cleveland Police patrolmen association. How about this. Listen to Police Officers commands, listen to what we tell you and just stop. I think that eliminates a lot of problem. I have kids, too. They know how to respect the law. I think the nation needs to realize that when we tell you to do something, do it. If youre wrong, youre wrong. If youre right, the courts will figure it out. The lord says it and i believe it. Thats probably pretty absolutist. By the way, what he just said, is what many millions of black people tell their kids. Lets not get it twisted. Many of us say look, be wrong later. Defer to this mans authority. But thats part of ourer e earation here. We do everything the police tell us, we still get must recallered. If we do what the policeman is telling us, go to our car to retrieve our wallet, we get shot. So the point is that following the letter of the law is not necessarily going to secure our lives and keep us. And then there is the element of fear. What the officer fails to rex niez and take into context particularly with a 1yearold black youth is a fear that growing up in an environment where the police are feared and not, you know, okay, ill do what you say, officer. That isnt also you know, just because you say do as we tell you doesnt necessarily mean, as michael pointed out, that the result is going to be any better than it would be if you ran. Right. And i just want to say, theres cases and then theres treads. We are talking about cleveland, where, of course, many oufrs e officers do work hard and fairly. But we also know about a pattern practice found by the justice departments, federal investigation, that these officers have shot at people who did not pose an eminent threat and hit people in the head with their guns in situations where it was ungist filled. These are findings, chairman, from an exhaustive report. Did you feel that detective folner there was in touch with those faktsd e facts . No, and, again, and i think michael set it out correctly at the beginning. Theres almost a sort of defensive nature that these guys are bringing to this argument. And this is not about being defencive. Were not trying to attack police. Were trying to get police and the Community Together on the same page. You have to understand where were coming from. You gist cant say that where he e were one thing and were not. Exactly. I appreciate you both joining me for some reaction to that on an important story. And, again, i want to thank the detective for sharing his story. That is all in for this evening. The rachel maddo wrksz show starts right now. Good evening. That was an amazing interview. Thank you. That was amazing. Thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. First things first, this is not a story about football. Whether or not you like football or pay any attention to football at all, ill eemt just saying. This may be helpful to understand. Just in terms of understanding the news right now and understanding kind of the american guys right now. Whether or not you care about football, you may want to know about this guy. And what has just happened to him. His name is johnny manzel. And e as you can tell, he is very, very pleased with himself. They call him johnny football. He was an comment College Quarterback in texas and this is his first season in the nfl. The thing that you see him doing, like the money gesture, thats kind of his signature move. Look what he did. Im so great. Money. Superconfident. Supercocky