Transcripts For MSNBCW All In With Chris Hayes 20140503

You see, there is the real benghazi. A city in the north of libya, east of tripoli, a city of over 600,000 people. The site of an american consulate, the place where an attack on september 11th, 2012, took the lives of four americans. A place turmoil and violence. That is the real benghazi. That benghazi is appropriately enough in the background of this graphic. That embassy burning is in the background because thats the real benghazi. The other benghazi is benghazi. Benghazi is the world of online conspiracy theories, twitter trolls, and facebook right wingers. Benghazi isnt a real place, where real people died horrible deaths. Its the alternate universe of endless conspiracy theorizing and propaganda that has sucked the entire right knee a paranoid vor decks. Its represented on the speakers graphic by the fake breaking news banner that is there for no reason. This graphic and the speaker. Gov. Benghazi is where you can find tweets about how Hillary Clinton has buckets of blood on her hands. The white house sends more personnel to the bundy ranch over cows than they did to benghazi. Its the place where people think that a White House Communications adviser looking at white house talking points is the next watergate. Benghazi isnt just online, its an entire industry, an entire imaginary realm. Its where, for instance, Lindsey Graham has actually been living for the past year. This is not a fox news story, this is an american story. Im not satisfied with having the executive branch tell me what happened in benghazi. The scumbags are the people in the white house who lied about this. Were just starting on benghazi. Benghazi is the alternate fox news universe where there is only one thing going on in the world and it is benghazi. All right. We were waiting for others to ask questions. We know that the next question coming up is from a german reporter. We are not anticipating that that would be about the situation with benghazi, which is breaking news since the president has been talking really. So if, in fact, somebody stloes him a question on this topic, well go back to that joint news conference. Thats fox breaking away from a Live Press Conference for the president because no one had asked a benghazi question and they werent anticipating a benghazi question but theyll go back to it when and if there is a benghazi question. The existence of benghazi doesnt mean, and this is really important, doesnt mean that there isnt still a real benghazi, a real place where real policy failures happened. Where real people lost their lives horrifically. A place where the intelligence was not good and Diplomatic Security was terrible. But, of course, if the politicians who spend so much time hyping benghazi actually cared about real benghazi, well then they wouldnt have voted to cut the budget for Diplomatic Security in places like the real benghazi. The most insidious aspect of benghazi is that if you express the warranted contempt for the absolute hysteria that surrounds the topic, the people, the denizens of benghazi will accuse you of disrespecting the memory of four americans who died in actual benghazi. Its exactly what they did to Hillary Clinton last year when she grew frustrated when a senator insisted that members of the administration had intentionally misled the American People. With all due respect, the fact is, we had four dead americans. Was it because of a protest, or was it because of guys out for a walk one night who decided to go kill some americans . What difference at this point does it make . It is our job to figure out what happened, and do everything we can to prevent it from ever happening again. Clinton was painted by the right wing media as spitting on the grave of four americans. Lying to the American People for two consecutive weeks, now forgive me but im willing to bet that it makes a difference to the families of the four dead americans. That same routine is being played out again only this time its happening to former National Security Council Spokesman tommy vitor. Yesterday he appeared on fox news. He wanted to know if he edited the talking points on benghazi. Keep in mind in his role he probably wrote and changed thousands of talking points. Did you also change attacks to demonstrations in the talking points . Maybe. I dont really remember. You dont remember . Dude, this is like two years ago. Were still talking about the most mundane dude it is the thing that everybodys talking about. The frustration in his voice, the incredulous dude there. That is directed that benghazi. But predictly the people who inhabit the world of benghazi exploded in dramatic outrage. He doesnt understand dude he actually does understand that when you change talking points after an ambassador is killed three other people are dead in a Major Military operation led by the United States, that that is huge. Four americans life brutally savagely taken, they were ki8ed, killed i think tommy vitor understands that four people were brutally murdered in the real benghazi and that is exactly why he like many others are sick with dealing with benghazi. Theyre tired of dealing with people who seem to care less about what actually happened in benghazi than how they can use the deaths of four americans to make Hillary Clinton and the white house look bad. Joining me now is tommy vitor, former National Security spokesman for president obama. Tommy, first i should get you to respond to the reaction to your interview yesterday. Were you saying dude that was two years ago about what happened there, or about the question pertaining to whether you edited some talking points . Yeah, i mean, brett was asking me to remember what, if i changed a word on september 14th, 2012. And my frustration came through. I guess youre only supposed to speak the queens english on fox. But obviously what happened that day was an absolute tragedy, and what i wish we talked more about on fox and everywhere else is what were doing to make sure it never, ever happens again. Like you discussed. Yes, well that seems to be absent because as far as i can tell the obsessive coverage of this in the right wing media is about hurting Hillary Clintons chances in 2016, frankly, and because they have worked themselves up to believing that there was some massive coverup to essentially quash, i dont know what, it keeps changing, to make the president look good. Was there a massive coverup . No, there was not. And yet, no one has explained to me what it was that was covered up. What i do know is that fox news and right wing radio has constructed this alternate reality where Brarack Obama watched video, drone footage of the incident as it happened where the cia was told to stand down where the military could have come to their rescue and didnt because some choices made not to all of those things have been debunked in the real world but in the fox news benghazi world these are things people still believe so of course people on twitter or listening to these shows are incensed about it. Because theyve been fed this fake reality created by fox news and these other outlets that in no way mirrors what actually happened that day. Four years or two years after this happened, are we in better shape both in, in, in, in libya or around the world in protecting embassies . I mean, has, it seems to me theres been zero policy discussion about how it went down, zero policy discussion about the actual intelligence failures that may or may not have happened and zero policy discussion of how we protect our embassies . So in the wake of those, in the wake of the series of protests that were the result of the innocence of Muslim Videos we had daily twice daily meetings about embassy security. And people asked really, really hard questions about are certain facilities in pakistan or yemen or sudan in truly, truly dangerous places secure enough for our diplomats and changes were made. But at the end of the day, chris, it really does boil down to the fact that these are brave people serving in dangerous places and there is some risk inherent to it. But it still doesnt change my frustration from the fact that were still talking about talking points. I mean theres not a select committee on condi rices sunday show prep call where she said a smoking gun could become a mushroom cloud. And clearly that had a far bigger impact on our nations National Security than susan rices comments after benghazi already occurred. How far are they going to go with this . Its hard to tell. I mean, you know, i have some close republican friends who say to me, theyre sick of this, theyre sick of repealing health care but they need to gin up something against obama to keep the Crazy Tea Party people from ginning up stuff against the leadership in the house. Or in the senate. And you know theyre candid with me about this and i understand it but its cynical and disgusting. Former National Security spokesman tommy vietor. Joining me is senior fellow at media matters i have to at a certain point i dont know you sort of tip your cap out of kind of perverse respect that they they just will not let anything stop them from from keeping this truck going. It was the lead on every fox show. It was i mean yesterday in the right wing media if you dont if youre not imbibing it to the extent that i am it was the only story in america that mattered for the last two days. And if we went back to may of 2003 we were in the exact same pattern right when we were talking about emails from the white house and benghazi in a coverup. Yes, exactly a year ago. Exactly. 50 weeks ago. And so after that passed after it blew up, after it was debunked after we realized lets just remember exactly there was there was basically hearsay of someone saying what was in emails that was leaked that at first looked incriminating, then they released the actual emails and they were not incriminating at all. We have gone through this pattern 50, 60, 70 times in this story . Oh, at least. And you think about where fox news was ten days ago they were humiliated with this cliven bundy fiasco where they had gone all in on a racist rancher. They like playing offense. This is a perfect example of the synergy of fox and up on the hill, and Judicial Watch and theyre all churning the same stuff, and they get everyone excited and here we are again. Look if they want to know what happened why dont they, you know, they form this select mitty, why dont they read the Senate Select committee released in january. No white house coverup, there was no specific threat. There was no standdown order. There was ties to the video, et cetera, et cetera. The house is saying, we had 20 months of this, weve had hearings, we spent millions, lets start all over. Because we cant find what we want to find. As a media watchdog i saw this everywhere in the right yesterday. This was a tweet, coincidence benghazi coverup. This is from heritage foundation, cbs evening news fails to cover the latest benghazi developments it identifies Ben Rhodes White house deputy National Security adviser, his brother is cbs news president. Isnt this the smoking gun . Lets go back to last fall where was cbs in terms of benghazi . They admitted they had their biggest embarrassment in a decade because they went with this right wing benghazi report. Whose story was totally debunked. They led put a huge amount of their 60 minutes into it and the guy who oversaw that is david rhodes. Right so how can cbs be covering up for the white house and benghazi now if cbs went out on a limb and embarrassed itself, humiliated itself by sort of echoing these right wing charges about benghazi. You cant have it both ways. Also david rhodes. Do you know where David Rhodes America worked for cbs for 15 years . He worked at fox news. Well thats right. Thats right. Of course. That is where david rhodes worked so if you think he is pulling the strings but it really is, it is, it does remind he of it, the in a whirring way reminds me of late clinton years, 97, 98 when it was just like theyve been pulling at threads for so long and it was, and they kind of lost the pot themselves about what the scandal was. Was it cat yule futures or whitewater and they ended up with and dumped it all in ken starrs lap. Here the gop does not have the independent counsel 40 million budget to vacuum all the stuff up so they have to do it pieceme piecemeal. The house decided lets start all over. Eric, thank you. Youll never guess what i was doing on wednesday. Why did i spend my morning testing out a potentially Game Changing new gun and what does that gun have to do with one of the most talked about stories in the country today . Ill explain ahead. Abe get in punch it let quicken loans help you save your money. With a mortgage thats engineered to amaze thanks, g. When attacking obamacare by saying no one signed up stopped working republicans went another way, saying no one had paid for it. Well up next im going to talk to someone who is actually running an Insurance Company, and find out, is he getting paid . [ female announcer ] grow, its what we do. But when we put something in the ground, feed it, and care for it, dont we grow something more . We grow big celebrations, and personal victories. We grow new beginnings, and better endings. Grand gestures, and perfect quiet. We grow escape, bragging rights, happier happy hours. So lets gro something greater with miraclegro. What will you grow . Share your story at miraclegro. Com. New job numbers today look pretty good. That is, of course, if you were naive enough to believe them. 288,000 jobs added to the economy, Unemployment Rate falling to 6. 3 . But we all know exactly how it works over at the Obama White House where secret obama agents are injected into the bureau of labor statistics to muck around with the data to make hur tyrannical leader look as good as possible. Oh, you think that sounds crazy and paranoid . Well let me introduce you to one of the most respected ceos in american history, one month before the 2012 president ial election. And it just seems somewhat coincidental that the month before the election the numbers go one tenth of a point below where they were when the president started. These chicago guys will do anything so they changed the numbers . I have no evidence to prove that. I just raised the question. Remember this was actually a thing. This was a thing in the fall of 2012, when there was a decent jobs report and when otherwise apparently sane people like jack welch bought into this Conspiracy Theory that the jobs numbers were manipulated. Just yesterday we got the official report from the u. S. Commerce Departments Office of the inspector general. Which determined that the whole jobs report of conspiracy was bunk. The independent investigation found no evidence to support the allegations, now the i. G. Did identify areas where the system could be improved. But it also arrived at a picture of just how hard it would be to manipulate those monthly unemployment numbers. How to fudge the unemployment numbers in 27 easy steps. The i. G. Might as well called it that because the report found it would take 27 field representatives conspiring and changing each of their own findings to alter the unemployment number by just 0. 1 . How to fudge the unemployment in 78 easy steps. It would take 78 field officers conspiring to change the monthly unemployment number by 0. 3 . Think of the secret meeting that would require that would be one hell of a meeting or would they do it by Conference Call or email chain, who knows because it never happened. But if you think todays i. G. Report will put an end to statistical trutherism on the right, no, no, no, no, no republicans have turned their sights to the obamacare numbers that theyve been waging a war against since day one. Their obsession as enrollment started Getting Better was that the books were cooked in part by not accounting for how many enrollees had actually paid. The number doesnt have any basis in reality. Cannot tell me how many people have used some type of payment device to enroll in obamacare and sign up for Health Insurance. I think theyre cooking the books on this. People want to know the answers to that. If we were cooking the books dont you think we would have cooked them in october and november . The most important number that we dont know is how many people have paid. And now that enrollments for the exchanges have gotten even better surpassing 8 Million People the house energy and Commerce Committee released a report finding that only 67 of enrollees had actually paid. Only about 5. 5 million of the 8 million enrollees. Oh, my god. Well heres the thing. Numerous problems with this report. It was done before many first month premiums were even due. Eninsurers learned explicitly the april 15th data was incomplete and even the insurances main trade group says the actual group who paid is 85 . If only someone knew whether people were making those payments to Insurance Companies like maybe someone who i dont know ran an Insurance Company created for the obamacare market. Joining me is kevin nazimi who runs an Insurance Company. Called oscar. Full disclosure my brother works there. Great to be here, chris. How much trouble are you guys in, no ones paying for you . Were getting paid and i think overall things are working. For us were seeing well over 90 of people who kind up are paying so far and they have until the 15th of the month to pay. 90 . Over 90 . So this is not while were the fox and republicans are very worried on your behalf that no ones paying you youre here to say you are getting paid by 90 of your customers . In general what weve been seeing is things are working and people are paying. That doesnt mean there hasnt been a bit of turbulence. But overall things are working. One of the things you guys have to figure out is is the billing youre youre in novel territory. Are you going to bill like a Cable Company which god i hate Cable Company bills, i hate how hard they make it to pay them. What are what are companies drying to do to make sure that they are getting paid . tis is really the basis for why we started oscar. Because traditionally consumers were forgotten as part of the Health Insurance experience. Because Health Insurance was sold through the employer so they didnt have to collect from, from their members. Now we do. And so we tried to create it like any great Consumer Experience, which is to make it seamless and provide you with choice to pay in the means that works for you. So whether thaiths a debit card, a transfer, in person at 1,000 locations we try to make it easy and seamless. Youre inside the machine and you and i have been talking about this, every month i say whats going on where are you with obamacare. What do you see coming on the horizon . Whats going to be the next blowup that people start freaking out about . Because one of the things ive learned here is that this is a disruptive piece of legislation because the old system was broken and to fix it you have to disrupt it. Without a doubt this is a big change. And as i said, overall things are working, but what you see is a lot of people navigating the system for the first time and communication between a lot of different parties, whether thats providers or the federal government or insurers for the very first time and so amidst that i think its the navigation of the system thats difficult. And understanding as a soon upper what are your options, what are the price differences between those options, and its up to us, we believe, as carriers in this new Consumer World to provide that transparency to help them out. Because that hasnt been there right i mean it hasnt been a business in which theres prices for consumers to pick from. That just has not been part of the health care market. And thats a big change thats happening. For the first time through the aca 50 million americans are now relevant as consumers to Health Insurers so weve got to compete and give them that transparency so they pick us. You told me that some of the earliest people that signed up were at the doctor very soon afterwards, and are people with serious illness . You bet. And thats our job as an Insurance Company. Thats what we do which is when you get sick were there so that when youre not sick youre with us for the longterm as well. So were happy when we see that. And a lot of these people didnt have insurance before and now they do. Youre talking about people with cancer with very serious illnesses showing up on day one day two of eligibility, you got to be thinking, what were they doing before . Absolutely. And thats what makes us proud to do what were doing. Because it has impact. Were able to get people the help that they need. Do you see this as a profitable business longterm . We got into this because we felt we could be impactful in a longterm sustainable business, absolutely. We think that if we serve members in a con summer way and provide them a Consumer Experience that delights them theyll stay for the long term. Kevin from oscar, thanks so much. One of the most fascinating things to come out of the whole Donald Sterling leaked taped message this week was the first thing conservative did after the tapes were released. Ill tell you what it says. You want a loan to build a factory in america . You cant do that. Nobody builds factories in the us anymore. You cant do that. Using american Raw Materials makes no sense. You cant do that. You want to hire workers here in the states . Theyre too expensive, you cant do that. Fortunately we didnt listen to the experts. At weathertech we built american factories, we use american Raw Materials and we hire american workers. Weathertech. Com, proudly made in america. Quality like this. You cant do that. What if there was a handgun that could prevent Police Officers from being killed with their own gun. A gun that could dramatically reduce the number of children killed in accidental shootings. A gun that would turn useless if it were ever stolen from its owner. That gun, that potentially Game Changing weapon, it exists. Its been built. And two days ago, i went to a shooting range in maryland and i took that socalled smart gun for a test run. The armateics ip1 Digital Smart gun will only fire if it is within 10 inches of a special wristwatch personalized for the user. Tat means if a kid finds it hidden away in a drawer somewhere or a criminal is able to wrestle it away from a police officer, it cannot be fired. Authorized user. Now move the hand back. Wont fire. Thats really cool. Now, if you want to go out and buy that gun, youre out of luck. You cant. You cannot buy that gun. Because even though the armateics smart gun is legal for use no one in the United States of america will sell it to you. Why . Because the National Rifle association and other selfstyled defenders of the Second Amendment do not want this gun on the market. When i was in maryland on wednesday i met a guy named andy ramon who describes himself as on the right wing vanguard of gun rights. Ramon was planning to be the first person to sell the gun in the entire country and he told me those who dont want it sold are no better than proponents of gun control. This is all about freedom. Right. It really is, man. So the nra who is the bastion of great freedom and they say this thing should be prohibited, how hypocritical is that . Theyre bowing down to fear, its cowardice. Theyre afraid so they bow down to that. That is cowardice. That is not what people who stand for freedom do. You stand up and you fight for what you believe. You do not bow down. As word of andys decision to sell the smart gun and our interview got ought, andy ramon began getting angry calls and death threats. Some of his critics said the smart gun could be controlled by the government or others pointed to a new jersey law that mandates that once a smart gun goes on the market anywhere in america new jersey must eventually sell only smart guns. Last night in a video he has since taken down andy ramon reversed course. He apologized and announced he no longer planned to sell the smart gun. I would never never cooperate with antigun [ bleep ] people. So, maybe armetics are antigun people. Maybe. I dont know. This is just one small part of an utterly amazing story about the intense battle over smart guns in the United States. We, in fact, have breaking news on that new jersey law tonight on our website. You wont find it anywhere else. Its at all in with chris dotcom. And this monday night well bring you our full exclusive report on this story with some amazing footage and interviews youre not going to see anywhere else. Thats monday night. Dont miss it. O cosign for his daughters credit card. 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Common side effects include skin redness or irritation where applied, increased red blood cell count, headache, diarrhea, vomiting, and increase in psa. Ask your doctor about axiron. If you dont see it dont come to my games. Dont bring black people and dont come. Do you know that you have a whole team thats black that plays for you . Do i know . I support them and give them food. And clothes. And cars. And houses. Who gives it to them . Does someone else give it to them . You know what was one of the weirdest thing about the whole Donald Sterling blowup it was the rush in the first moments after the story broke by a weather of conservatives to call Donald Sterling a democrat. Someone out there thought hey i bet this guy is a democrat and looked up his donation records to find hed given some money to a few Democratic Candidates years ago as if that would be embarrassing for the democratic party, as if that would implicate people who voted for democrats. Mother jones cleared up that sterling is, in fact, a registered republican, which i should be clear i still dont think really matters at all. I cant even begin to understand the mindset that hears that tape and immediately wonders which party sterling is registered with. But, i think it exposes how conservatives think of the way us liberals talk and think about race in the obama era. Which is this. They think we think republicans are racist and racists are republicans end of story. And the truth is way more complex, sophisticated and interesting than that. In fact, a great post about white republicans and white democrats Racial Attitudes in the obama era. And most of the data is actually encouraging. White republicans and democrats aggregate attitudes on race track pretty closely. While the numbers are way too high they are trending in the right direction. But unfortunately, theres two big exceptions to this trend. The percentage of white people who say black people lack the motivation to pull themselves out of poverty, which is opened up to a 16point percentage gap between white democrats and white republicans. And even greater divide, 23 points, between white republicans and democrats who say too much money is spent improving conditions for blacks. And that question is at the heart of what is racialized about politics in the obama era. Not racism writ large, not dont bring black players to my game. Its the intersection of the state and government and the perception of who that government benefits. Joining me now is associate professor of Political Science International Public affairs at columbia university. Its great to have you here. Great to be here, chris. This seems to me really, really key and important. I thought that data was incredibly revealing. When you ask white democrats and white republicans about comfort within a racial marriage or how close they feel to black people theres not much difference. This is where we see the divide. Who is the government benefiting . And weve always seen this. Marty gillens wrote a book, political scientist a long time ago about why americans hate welfare where he showed that americans are actually supportive of antipoverty policies unless they are racialized in some way. So welfare, in particular, because it was racialized, white support went way down on that issue. And what we know now is that in the obama era, any policy that he takes a position on immediately becomes racialized. So if you take the economy, if you take health care obamacare. A seemingly nonracial issue, and then you associate it with obama, white support goes down, way, way down, and in fact another political scientist Michael Tessler has done an experiment really cool analyzing this. He shows pictures of bo obama, the dog, with ted kennedys old dog, splash. Portuguese water dogs, same kind of dog. If you associate president obamas dog with his name, support for the dog even goes down among white americans. Because, so this is that is amazing. So theres this process of rashlgization in fact were not postracial. Were the opposite. Weve become more racially polarized. We have racial conservatives and racial liberals which is more pronounced now in american politics. So how does that cash out for our politics . Because i think what what conservatives hear is you liberals play the race card you call everyone a racist. And when i Say Something like, i cant look at Medicaid Expansion and look at the map of Medicaid Expansion in which basically theres two reasons of the country, the old deep south, many of the states of the former confederacy and the plains west, right . When you look at those states in the deep south its hard to look at Medicaid Expansion and not see a racial story. Right. About who would benefit from Medicaid Expansion. And when which party and which party supported by people of which Color Control the government. Yeah thats a great point to be careful about any kind of study or analysis of Racial Attitudes because attitudes do not equal behavior. And attitudes dont necessarily lead to particular policies. We should be looking at behaviors in the racial impacts of policies. Right. So give you another example, very famous sociological study by Richard Lapierre he sent a survey to southern establishments, hotels, motels asking would they serve an asianamerican. They all said no. Then he went around to those very same establishments with his asianamerican graduate assistant and almost everywhere they served thats fascinating so people were more racist in, in, in what they say. Than in how they behaved. So we have to always be careful about that is fascinating. About reading too much into Racial Attitudes even though theyre important to assess. And to assess progress in particular. Theres one other place where you see a split and it has nothing to do with race explicitly and i think it gets to this point, whites who say too much money is spent on trying to improve the Education System in 2012 and theres a big gap there. 16 of white republicans say too much money is being spent on education you basically cant find any white democrats who feel that way and maybe thats not a racial effect but it seems like you could create a story where its not surprising that theres some racial effect there. Thats right. Its not surprising. Especially when we know after brown v. Board of education and the supreme court, and federal courts were mandating racial integration that was a period over decades we saw white flight from cities into suburbs for better schools. Right . They didnt want to either integrate with black children, their children with black children or wanted just better funded schools. Thats an example of behavior right. Its one thing to have an attitude. Its another thing to take action which creates Racial Disparities for other populations. I would say if you want to see people leading the charge on this idea of the governments giving too much to black people or theyre too lazy, theres a program on cable news at 8 00 p. M. On another network where you will hear that over and over and over again. Even with obama care Rush Limbaugh kept saying obamacare is represent rations for black people so it was specifically flamed Dorian Warren from columbia university. Were doing exclusive reporting across the country for a series calling all in america. Our first installment has taken us to buffalo, new york, it premieres tonight. Its an incredible story im really proud to show you. Stay tuned for that next. 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And i have tide plus febreze, which now gets it fresher for longer, so i can stay happy even when do you need a napkin . Yeah. Napkin okay. Oh oh, my gosh. Getting ripe in here, huh . Whew [ ding ] [ female announcer ] tide plus febreze. Thats my tide plus. If youre a doctor in this country and you decide to provide abortion as part of your medical practice you just expect a certain amount of protest and harassment and menace. You hope to escape violence. Its just part of the job. Tonight, we will introduce you to a doctor whos been facing all that for decades, who was undeterred by the extreme violence of the 90s abortion wars and is pressing forward with a new fight. In this country, what we do is we infantalize women, so the woman who comes for a termination of pregnancy she just must be a completely deluded woman who stumbled into an abortion facility, and had an abortion, didnt want it. And so what we do is we persecute the providers. And youll see that also in natural birth. For 30 years dr. Katherine morrison has been providing abortion care in buffalo, new york. Shes an ob gyn by training also attending to women giving birth. But now she is embarking on a new endeavor in her field, opening up the countrys very first Natural Birthing Center housed inside of an Abortion Clinic. Something that would have been inconceivable just 22 years ago. And tonight, the city of buffalo, new york, is preparing for a street fight between the forces opposed to abortion, and those in favor of abortion rights. Buffalo was one of the major flashpoints of the abortion wars of the 1990s. This is a dead baby. This is a dead human being. And what are you after staging successful demonstrations in wichita, kansas, the antiabortion Group Operation rescue found a receptive audience in the largely catholic area. You think reasonable people can sit down and settle this issue . Well, personally i dont believe murder is debatable. The group was even invited to come protest by buffalos democratic mayor. If they can close down one abortion mill i think theyve done their job. But buffalo was not wichita. Operation rescue was met with heavy resistance from prochoice groups. If we hold the line in buffalo, then that will have an effect on what happens in milwaukee, and what happens in columbus, and what happens in schenectady. For two weeks thousands took to the streets leading to hundreds of arrests. Patients harassed. Clinics blockaded. Including one named buffalo women services. I have a right to walk on the sidewalk. Why dont you go home and reconsider another day . In the wake of this sort of antiabortion interference, federal law was passed to address it. Blocking Abortion Clinics became a federal crime in this country today. President clinton signed a landmark bill which includes harsh new penalties for demonstrators who block access to Abortion Clinics. Or who harass patients and workers. Four years later dr. Morrison began working at buffalo womens services. A clinic providing abortion care led by dr. Barnett slepian, a local ob gyn like morrison. At the time morrison voiced her concerns over safety to the clinic owner. I said isnt it dangerous, isnt it political . And she said no, not anymore. And i was quite naive, and it did seem that it wasnt that it wasnt a huge deal anymore. It was an executionstyle killing. One bullet fired from a highpowered rifle, crashed through the win doer of dr. Barnett slepians suburban buffalo home, striking him in the back. Slepians murder may fit a pattern of attacks that have occurred over the past four years in upstate new york and canada. There are doctors, are doctors who provide abortions. Theyre all shot in their residences from outside the residence. We are outraged that somebody would have the audacity and the just terrible gall to come in and do that to another human being. Certainly after dr. Slepian was murdered, a couple of providers stopped working right away. People dont want to take the chances. And his family paid a terrible, terrible price for his courage. Right in the aftermath of him being murdered, i quit. Because i was i was terrified. I had young children. My parents were still alive. I i did not want to die. I really wanted to live and be a parent to my children, and be a daughter to my parents. And then after three months, two or three months, i came here and i really felt ashamed. You know, that there were people who were doing that important work, and so i came back. In the years since dr. Slepians murder, the abortion wars have left the streets and entered the state houses. Across the country, abortion rights are being stripped away. Through legislation designed to shame women, punish providers, and limit access to care. Little by little, hospitals and providers in red states and blue states have walked away from offering women the care they need because it has become too difficult. So, because abortion has been segregated, because its been removed from the hospital, and because private practitioners either are afraid to do their own terminations, because they cant bring patients to the hospital, or because they havent been trained for it, they dont know that women have unintended pregnancies, and choose to terminate them. So, its the same patient who is getting pregnant and continuing a pregnancy, and maybe next time getting pregnant and terminating a pregnancy. And next time maybe having a natural birth. These are all the same people. Its our beautiful birth room. It was ending that segregation that inspired morrison to open up a Natural Birthing Center under the same roof as an Abortion Clinic. Morrison collaborates with a dean stewart, a certified nurse midwife. Its this kind of comprehensive facility, offering women different kinds of care that morrison and stewart hope take the stigma from both kinds of services. Stewart has seen an evolution of thinking over the course of her career. I just think that were moving in a direction where people are thinking about alternatives in lots of ways. Yet both women have found that the idea of natural birth is met, in some circles, with the same kind of vitriol that abortion care is in others. I think im seen as someone who cares for the wrong sort of person, and that the other providers are taking care of the good patients. And theyre good because they continue their pregnancies, and theyre good because they go to the hospital to have their babies, and they have a csection when theyre told to, and im seen as somebody whos has a lesser practice. But the mission is to give women choices in their own health care. Nobody looks back in their life and doesnt think about the birth of their baby, or quite honestly, an abortion as some significant aspect of their life. And being treated with respect and dignity around that, so important. Dr. Morrison is trying to do something that extends far beyond her own clinic in buffalo. Shes trying to upset the conventional wisdom on womens health. What shes after is nothing less than to fundamentally change the way pregnant women are treated in this country. Not just by their doctors, but by all of us. In a few minutes ill be joined by terry oneil, president of the National Organization for women and ruth connell editor of the progressive magazine to discuss this. Stick around. [ male announcer ] ortho crime files. Reckless seeding. Failure to disappear. A backyard invasion. Homeowner takes matters into his own hands. Ortho weed b gon max. With the onetouch, continuous spray wand. Kills weeds without harming innocent lawns. Guaranteed. Weeds killed. Lawn restored. Justice served. Weed b gon max with the onetouch wand. Get order. Get ortho®. [ banker ] sydney needed some Financial Guidance so she could take her dream to the next level. So we talked about her options. Her valuable assets were staying. And selling her car wouldnt fly. We helped sydney manage her debt and prioritize her goals, so she could really turn up the volume on her dreams today. And tomorrow. So lets see what we can do about that. Remodel. Motorcycle. [ female announcer ] some questions take more than a bank. They take a banker. Make a my financial priorities appointment today. Because when people talk, great things happen. Were back. Im here with terry oneil and ruth conive. Ruth you have some intimate familiarity with Natural Childbirth. I do. I had three little girls at home with a home birth midwife and it was a phenomenal experience. There was a line in there i thought dr. Morrison says that its an amazing contention almost as controversial as abortion. Yeah. What is the controversy . Or what is the, what is the resistance one faces in Natural Childbirth . I think her point that women are infantalized in our medical system in this country in particular is a great point. I found that when i was researching my options i more and more wanted to have more control over my experience myself, and have that sense of support and respect that midwives offer, and i think that that there is this real connection between women controlling their reproduction, whether its giving birth or having an abortion. In fact the history of midwivry, they used to offer both childbirth assistance and abortion and that moved into the hospital and there was a real sense of male authorities taking over and i think we still experience that cultural force that women should be docile patients. She talks about how the good women follow orders and do what theyre supposed to do and we have this incredibly technological childbirth process in this country. We have like a 33 csection rate and the World Health Organization says maybe 5 to 10 is healthy. So its crazy how technological it is in the hospital and the pressure on you there. Its striking to me that when you go back to roe, original roe, the roe decision, is about the right of privacy of the doctor. Of the doctor. I mean people dont realize this. The finding in roe and im going to read this, this is the controlling opinion in row, Mary Blackmun prior to approximately the end of the first trimester the abortion decision must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant womans attending physician. Exactly. The decision vindicates the right of the physician to administer medical treatment according to his professional judgment. So even roe is shot through with this perspective. And chris it gets worse. The case after roe planned parenthood v. Casey Sandra Day Oconnor talking about how women arent necessarily the right people to make this decision. That the state should have the right to proselytize her, to pressure her, to encourage her to make the decision that the state wants her to make, later on in carhart in the carhart case that upheld a criminalization of a safe abortion procedure a lateterm procedure, Justice Kennedy specifically said its okay to criminalize this safe procedure for women because women regret the choice they make. So its this the law is riddled with distrust of womens ability to make their decisions. Theres also the case, i mean, ruth when i heard this story, and, and two of our fantastic segment producers sort of found it and and pitched it and and told it to me and i heard the story and i said oh, you know, thats craze why do i have the reaction i have to it . The tweet link version is natural birth clinton open and Abortion Clinic as a supporter of abortion rights i still was like yeah there was some part of me and what is that reaction about . I mean i think its about the sense that we have a lot of fear and pain that we associate both with childbirth and abortion, and particularly with abortion its been drummed into our heads women have all these regrets. Actually the data show that, in fact, they dont. Right. They dont. And this is a really sad, awful thing and i think that that narrative has just overwhelmed the sense that actually women make these decisions in a routine way. That one in three women have an abortion in her life, and you know, that there is this continuum of care that you can expect. That we could demystify womens bodies, take power over our own bodies and have a healthy and happy relationship with ourselves. And the idea when roe was decided there was an assumption that ob gyns would be delivering children and providing abortion because who else was going to do it . What happened was the politicization of that segregated those services. I will tell you it seemed the most natural thing in the world to me that you have the same doctor or the same team of Health Care Providers providing the entire spectrum of your Reproductive Health care needs. If one in three women will have an abortion in their lifetime many women also have pregnancies who have had abortions or carry pregnancies and have childbirths and then terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason. You want to have a relationship with your health care provider. You want the same person. And ive been through this incredibly dramatic and important decision in my life im choosing to terminate right now because its not the right time or for whatever reason and three years later were back and im extremely excited to be bringing this child into the world and its the same person who knows your history. And its the same Decision Making process. Its a hugely trying decision to have a baby, to continue a pregnancy. Its scary, it can be dangerous. Clearly abortions are far safer than childbirth. So either way, these are momentous medical procedures. Terry oneill from the National Organization for women. Ruth conniff from the progressive magazine. That is all in for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show starts right now. Good evening, rachel. That was a great feature on that buffalo site that was incredible, chris, well done. Thanks a lot. Thank you at home for joining us this hour. Happy friday. All right this at first glance looks like a really awesome paint job. And sort of detailing job on this car, right . And this look is kind of a trend in cars now, if youve noticed. The blackout package. Where you get a black car, with black trim, and black wheels, no chrome at all, everythings blacked out. Its very stuffy looking. But you know what . That is not what is going on in this picture. And we know that in part because this picture was taken in 2007, and thats before the blackout look was popular in cars. But its also because what this picture is, is part of the documentation of an oil spill that happened in the vancouver area in 2007. Heres another couple angles on that same poor car