Prolife moniker for something else. Senator todd young of indiana summarize the meeting as being focused on, quote, pro baby policies. When all when all in starts, right now. Good evening from new york. Im chris hayes. There have been major breaking developments tonight out of georgia. Tonight a federal judge in atlanta rejected mark meadows a chance to move his r. I. C. O. Conspiracy georgia case to federal court. The criminal defendant and former Trump White House Chief Of Staff was the first one to try this move, to move his case out of Fulton County to washington, d. C. Now the same prosecutors remain on the case, but he would get a new jury pool, probably be more likely to draw from areas that donald trump won, and also a new judge. The argument he was making was that he was acting under federal law is a federal officer in the trump administration. That would qualify him for being tried in federal court. Meadows saw such an upside to moving his case to federal court that what he did shot legal experts. He took the Witness Stand himself last week to make his case. That was a gamble. Usually dont want to do that with your client. Granting him or criminal exposure. In the end it appears as of now the gamble did not pay off. Federal job steve jones rejected the Argument Meadows and his attorneys made. He wrote in his ruling released less than two hours ago, that, quote, the court finds that the color of the office of the white house Chief Of Staff does not include working with or working for the trump campaign. Even if meadows took on tasks that mirror the duties that he carried out when acting in his official role as white house Chief Of Staff, he has failed to demonstrate how the election really related activities that serves the basis for the charges in the indictment are relating to any of his official acts. This attempt by meadows, again, to remove the case into federal court, was also seen is a test case for the other 18 defendants in fani williss sprawling r. I. C. O. Indictment. Again, the upside for them, i mean, its going to be tried under georgia law, and the upside for them is there might be a more favorable jury pool. One of those defendants, that guy there, he is one of them, donald j trump, yesterday trump filed a notice that he may move or try to move his case to federal court. Reports that he was watching to see how the meadows case played out to make a decision. So much for that plan, at least for now. That said, im sure mark meadows will appeal tonights decision, putting that aside, this is a huge legal victory for fani willis. Its really one of the first victories. Willis is juggling this extraordinarily complex case in which she had another victory this week went two other defendants in trump cool waters failed to get their cases severed from each other. The judge, that would be a Georgia Criminal Court judge, rejected their arguments and now they are looking to go to trial next month, october 23rd. Meadows, on the other hand, possibly still could get his chance to be in federal court in fact a lot of them might. Special counsel jack smith in his federal case is famously not charged any of the coconspirators yet. Mark meadows is not one of the unnamed coconspirators, but hes in the thick of all of this. And we learned today, and this is really something, if only willis, for all her tenacity and aggressiveness in pursuing this case, all the insults and criticisms she has faced from people but support donald trump, that fani willis was actually a vision of restraint in terms of the people she could have indicted. And thats because today a judge in Fulton County released that Special Grand Jury report that the Special Grand Jury panel delivered to fani willis in january. Remember, it was a body of citizens who didnt have the power to return indictments. They were empaneled. In a kind of investigatory fashion. They had subpoena power. Their final work product is this 28page report, the District Attorney reviewed in making her final charting decisions. Ultimately fani willis indicted 19 defendants, including the ex president , in what prosecutors say was an organ orchestrated Criminal Enterprise to steal the election. Those are the folks you see there on your screen. But fani willis did not indict 21 people that the grand jury recommended charges against. Several of those beamed are fake electors. But the list of names, again, the grand jury just sort of average citizens, grafted into this process, heard testimony, went through, it came up with what they thought should happen. A list of names is truly astounding. It basically includes a whos who of trumps inner circle. So listen kloots current sitting republican South Carolina senator Lindsey Graham, former republican georgia senator david perdue and kelly loeffler. They were in power during the election and in the effort to overturn. It National Security advisor for dame front for a few weeks, michael flynn, tamp trump aide boris epshteyn, georgia Lieutenant Governor bert jones, and trump clue lawyer cleta mitchell. Again, not some random fringe people or some bizarre extreme assemblers. Some of these guys before they were Conspiracy Theorists they were a respected established people in the republican party. A few of them still are. A Special Grand Jury recommended that they be charged for their efforts, quote, with respect to the National Effort to overturn the 2020 president ial election, focused on efforts in georgia, arizona, wisconsin, michigan, pennsylvania, and the district of columbia. Republican senator Lindsey Graham actually testified before that grand jury last year, before this group of citizens, even though he fought tooth and nail, take the case all the way up to the supreme court, he lost. Georgia secretary of state Brad Raffensperger so green called him twice in the aftermath of the 2020 election and suggested that Raffensperger Throw Out Absentee Ballots. To put a fine point on, and heres clark cunningham, Georgia State University Law of ethics. Hear how he puts the testimony on nbc earlier today. He testified in front of the Special Grand Jury when he came out he said he answered all the questions he was asked. This suggests he did not take the fifth. A Special Grand Jury listened to him, testifying under oath and then decided he was criminal. Listened to him testify and decided he was criminal. A majority of jury of his peers decided what he did was criminal. Senator Lindsey Graham defended his actions earlier this afternoon. This is troubling for the country. We cant criminalize senators are doing their job when they have a constitutional requirement to fulfill. It would be irresponsible for me, in my opinion, as chairman of the committee, not to try to find out what happened. It would be irresponsible for me to tell the voters of South Carolina what i did without actually trying to find out with the right answer was. So were opening up pandoras box here. At the end of the day, nothing happened. What i did was consistent with my job as being United States senator, chairman of the judiciary committee. I think the system in this country is getting off the rails, and we have to be careful not to use the legal system as a political tool. Yes. Careful not to use the legal system as a political tool, which is why he has endorsed donald trump for president. Graham is saying all the same things trump is saying, just for the just in a gentlemanly southern drawl. Im a senator, im allowed to do this. The Justice System is being politicized. And again, there is a defense for grahams actions. Sort of more so than some of these other folks. But i will just say, the Special Grand Jury thought those phone calls to raffensperger were illegal. And while not yet gone to trial in this case against the ex president , as steve staff, the whole going in the special counsels case, when this was happening in realtime, as we learned about the events, ive got to, say it sure as heck seemed unlawful. It didnt seem like they were doing normal politics. It didnt seem like Lindsey Graham and these folks were making calls, trying to get to the bottom of it. It seemed wrong, downright criminal. A Special Grand Jury in georgia agreed. Andrew weissmanns formerly prosecutor, special counsel office, now the cohost of the prosecuting donald trump podcast. Lisa reuben is a former litigator and a legal analyst. Good to have you here. Lets start on the people that were not indicted. Andrew i will start with you. What do you make of it . Not to put cold water on this but i do think its important to i got no stake in this. Good. This is so unusual because in the federal system you would never learn this. If there is a put up or shut up rule, meaning that you are either charged or not charged, for the same reason, when Jim Comey Denigrated hillary clinton, you dont get to say were not charging someone, but let me tell you how bad they are. Right. For the people who are not being charged, this is just an unusual situation, to be able to say, here are these people the grand jury considered. It is also worth noting, that means that the grand jury determined by probable cause. That is this. It doesnt mean you have a case. And very often, if youre a prosecutor, the grand jury might be able to say yes, this is probable cause, but you are thinking, i need to be able to prove this Beyond A Reasonable Doubt to a trial jury. With these people, yes, it is newsworthy that there are many grand showers who found that of these people, by probable cause did this, but there may be very good reasons that fani willis is saying no way, it doesnt reach the requisite standard for criminal conviction. I dont want to imply otherwise. Im not saying how did united ate these people . I think what you say also about the reputational matters, the put up four or shut up would rules, its a good rule. Theres a lot of litigation out of over whether this report was gonna come out. Basically it was the press who sued to get it out. Theres a Public Interest in this. What i find interested, in a social logical level, is thinking about those folks that were in that grand jury, and thinking they are watching this testimony. Absolutely. Unlike me, watching this whole thing played out, before the election, during the election, after the election, january six. It really seems wrong that they had the same determination in almost a folk sense, whether or not theres a prosecutable case there. I think thats right. Again, to go back to your point about it being a folk sense, there are people on this list that fani willis and her team may have determined were just not not only not worth indicting but people whom they could not indict. Mike flynn comes to mind, for me. We know that on december 18th, 2020, mike flynn and Sidney Powell and Patrick Byrne and others gathered in the oval office and talked about the seizure of Voting Machines and tried to persuade the president to enact an Executive Order that would allow just that. Whether that has a nexus to the state of georgia to justify prosecution, is a completely different matter. So he may have joined a conspiracy to overturn the election. Did he join a conspiracy to overlook overturn the election in georgia itself, it wouldve been something that would give fani willis pause. Shes got a lot of with the 19. Whos already what shes undertaking is the most huge, probably the most ambitious State Criminal Case ever brought. Maybe, maybe not. I mean, in terms of the broader social historical ramifications. Not in legal terms. Im sure there are more complex ones. In that respect you can understand. I want to talk about, i want to pivot to the meadows ruling today. Again, this is something, there are things i feel strongly about and things i dont. Whether he should be in federal georgia or state court, i feel is in the latter category. What do you think . Let me tell you why you should care just give me an opinion. More than simply the jury pool would change, there would be no cameras in the courtroom, so that is a real reason youd want to move. But heres a reason the second part of the equation of moving into federal court was then getting federal immunity. So its not necessarily like the night follows the day, but its close. Unnecessary predicate for the pursuing immunity. This is something the market to be able to satisfy for federal immunity because this was something part of the campaign not part of their office. So that is The Big Picture of whats happening behind the scenes. I think the thing that i have a strong opinion about is, the question that was before the court. In terms of where hands up, the question before the court is, was what you were doing in your official capacity . Im gonna read from the ruling, lisa, and i want your response. As a substance of the overt acts, constituted a significant part of Meadows Testimony and proof of his acting within the scope of his federal office. Gore concludes the based on the factual evidence meadows was not acting in the scope of his office for purposes of federal officer remover. No, he wasnt. We were talking about this earlier. In some respects this legal result that took him 49 pages to get to, strikes all three of us in our non lawyer capacities as intuitive and obvious. What he was trying to do here was overturn the results of an election. I dont care how broadly you define the scope of the Chief Of Staffs role, it doesnt involve usurping the role of states in administering elections or political activity forbidden by the hatch act. Its not like a Hurricane Hit Savannah and president tells his Chief Of Staff staff, get down there right now, thats not whats happening. Even if he said i want your eyes on, and i want your eyes on the Signature Audit is going on in cobb county right now, on december 22nd, 2020. That doesnt justify his invading the province of the state and running its own election. Theres a whole discussion here about federalism that i know andrew and i both thought was really important. It sort of turns the federalist principles that the right has been advocating for on their head. Do we think this has implications for trump, in terms of the georgia case . The court goes out of its way to say im just deciding this case and it will not have an effect as of yet on the other cases, meaning he is protecting his record, saying im going to let everyone else have their day in court. But of course it will. Because hes laying down the view of the law thats going to apply, thats not going to change. And even with respect to the facts, obviously, each person has different facts, but if youre donald trump, or, frankly, any of the other defendants looking at this, this is a terrible ruling for. Away we should say that meadows had just got word that he has appealed and i imagine this is the kind of thing that could find itself before the supreme court. It could, but to lisas point, at The Big Picture, which i thought the judge was brilliant on, was saying the Removal Statute is there because you are trying to prevent State Interference with federal action, and he says this is the exact opposite of that. This is federal interference with the state. Andra weisman and lisa rubin, take you for being here. You dont have data all weekend yet. If we nominate trump, will get destroyed and will deserve it. Linda how Lindsey Graham went from Donald Trumps biggest critic to nearly in avoiding an indictment, next. Indictment, next my names dan and i live here in san antonio, texas. My wife magda and i have been married for 39 years. About three or four years ago, i wasnt feeling as if i was as sharp as i used to be. I wanted to try something that was overthecounter. I saw the prevagen commercials. After a short amount of time taking prevagen, i started noticing a difference that im remembering this, im remembering that. 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Bigot he doesnt represent my party, he doesnt represent the values of the men and women who wear the uniform are fighting for. You know how you make american America Great again . Tell downtown to go to hell. Ive seen that maybe 50 times. Back then president ial candidate Lindsey Graham, not a big fan of donald trump. Trump sharing what grahams phone number with opponents. Going so far leads recently as far as assisting trump in his attempted coup, Pressuring Raffensperger to tossing out some Absentee Ballots he thought might help trump get the win. It was that endeavor, of course, which led to a Georgia Special grand jury recommending graham be indicted indicted in Fulton County. Something that didnt happen, likely due to logistical hurdles of indicting a sitting senator in state court. Directly after jarry six attack on trumps mob stormed the grand space at work, he like many others thought he was done, it didnt take too long before he was back in the trump train. All i can say is count me out. Enough is enough. Ive tried to be helpful. Im for donald trump because i know what im going to get. We need somebody that on day one can get this country back on track. What exactly happened . How did Lindsey Graham go from hardline never trumper to risking criminal exposure for the ex president , briefly back to being a never trumper before endorsing him further campaign . Bill solid as a writer for the bulwark, who has been a year going through grams archive of public statements. The result was a buckling statement called the corruption of Lindsey Graham. He joins me now. Ive been enjoying your case study. And first lets start with the news out of the Fulton County grand jury. Again, he was not actually charged. But he did make these calls. And what is striking about them is, it wasnt like one of these things where you get cornered by a microphone and you kind of have to say the line, tow the trump line. This was done behind the scenes, affirmatively, of his own volition, an enterprise. It wasnt like he was pandering. And that, to me, really sticks out about what it says about him and his character. What do you make of it . From the beginning right up to the election, Lindsey Graham was engaged in a Public Campaign to help donald trump try to overturn the results and he was obviously standing he was Oliver Fox News spreading myths and lies about election fraud. This call to raffensperger was part of a campaign. Trump wanted all of his accomplices, including graham, to do everything they could to help him overturn the State Results in the key states. This call to raffensperger was grahams version of the phone call that trump later made to raffensperger. And trumps phone call is very explicit. He says i need you to find me 11,780 votes. Graham appears to have done a much, and graham is a trained lawyer, and a smarter guy, and he appears to have done a much smarter version of the call, in which he didnt say go find me the votes. He said brad, what could you do without these counties where the rollout of mailin ballots and we dont know whether the signatures were valid . We cant prove they are, but is there something you could do where you could set those ballots, all the ballots, the mailin ballots from those counties aside . So he was doing a clever version of what trump was doing, trade undermine the result. He managed to do, it obviously, in a way where trump gets indicted, but graham doesnt. And lets be clear here. When he is saying that, can you set off the mailin ballots, when we knew that the mailin ballots were running 80, 20, or whatever they were, hugely for by, the inperson vote, so the category of odds were proxies. You know youre doing if youre asking someone to set aside mailin ballots. Right. And the dispute here is, did he actually ask raffensperger to set them aside, or did he just say, is this a legal thing that one could do . Because trump is very explicit. You can hear in trumps phone call. I need you to do this. Graham, if he doesnt express it as an imperative, does he get away with, it and the answer is, with seven of the special grand jurors, especially that was enough. It was enough to deter fani willis from proceeding with the grand part of the indictment. When i talk to people in the world, not on television or in politics, theres a bunch of questions people ask. One of the things that comes up with some frequencys, whats the deal with Lindsey Graham . People are like, like i dont get. It was what was he pretending . Then is he pretending now . Whats your theory, having basically written a book about this, and the answer to that question . The simple answer is, there isnt a moment, and a lot of people you have heard say oh trump blackmailed him, there was some golf outing where trump told graham he was gonna spill some dark secret about Draymond Green came over. Thats not what happened. Theres no evidence of that. What happened is a long, slow process. Remember, in the clips you played in 2015, graham was trying to stop trump from becoming the republican nominee and from gaining power. Once trump got the republican nomination, graham started to coach him on how to win the election, and then once trump won the election and was gonna be president , graham wanted to influence policy. Graham does believe in an internationalist, interventionist foreign policy. So he wanted to have influence on trumps white house. And he gradually just began to rationalize everything trump tiered. Chris, it was trumps initiative, trump did things like firing jim comey. Those are the things that graham increasingly rationalized, one after another, so that graham could have access to trumps ear. Even today, you can see, when graham is on tv, those interviews hes doing on fox, theyre not for you and me. Those are for donald trump. Therefore the guy that he wants, he wants trump to believe that trump gets back up our collinson graham, bringing that to the white house, and for him to be the voice for foreign policy. A really good case study in a certain kind of corruption, not corruption in the sense of bribery, but the deep sense of corruption of one sole. Thank you very much, michael saletan. Still ahead, it was a pierre campaign decades in the making. So why is the right thinking about pitching prolife . Next. Prolife . Next get help with j. P morgan personal advisors. Hey, david ready to get started . Work with advisors who create a plan with you, and help you find the right investments. So great getting to know you, lets take a look at your new investment plan. Ok, great this should have you moving in the right direction. Thanks jen. Get ongoing advice; and manage your investments in the chase mobile app. When my doctor gave me breztri for my copd things changed for me. Breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flareups. Breztri wont replace a Rescue Inhaler for sudden breathing problems. It is not for asthma. Tell your doctor if you have a Heart Condition or high Blood Pressure before taking it. Dont take breztri more than prescribed. Breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. Call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. Ask your doctor about breztri. Wake up, gotta go vision changes, or eye pain occur. Cmon, cmon. Gracie, cmon. Lets go guys, cmon mom, cmon mia [ Engine Revving ] my favorite color is. Because, its like a family thing [ Engine Revving ] made it mom leave running behind, behind. The new turbocharged volkswagen atlas. Does life beautifully. Did you know 80 of women are struggling with hair damage . Dryness and frizz that keeps coming back, could be damaged hair that cant retain moisture. You need pantenes miracle rescue deep conditioner. Its filled with provitamins to help hair lock in moisture, visibly repairing six months of damage in just one use, with no weighdown. Guaranteed, or your money back. For hair that looks healthy and stays healthy. If you know, you know its pantene. Get it with gurus. Cargurus. Hi need new glasses . Buy one pair, get one free at visionworks how can you see me squinting . I cant im just telling everyone . Hey buy one pair, get one free for back to school. The Prolife Movement is the visionworks. See the difference. Humanitarian movement of our time. The strong pro life Pro Family Position attracted millions of voters. Reagan democrats, independents, and previous nonvoters. Im a proud prolife candidate. Im a prolife candidate. The most prolife president in american history. [applause] republicans have spent over 30 years calling themselves prolife. It seemed to work, because whose against life . So they have been coached for decades to respond to any question about abortion with, im prolife, and i make no apologies for it. But since the dobbs ruling, when questions include, do you think this woman shouldve been left in the hospital parking lot to get sepsis before she got treatment . That roe answer, im prolife, may not work as well. Now is nbc news is reporting, republicans are looking away from the trump prolife to stave off more election losses. In a meeting this Week Senate Republicans were presented with poll results that suggested voters reacting differently to commonly used terms like prolife and prochoice in the wake of last Years Supreme Court decision. Quote, many voters think prolife means you are no exceptions in favor of abortion ever ever, senator josh hawley. Senator ted young of indiana, said the meeting of senators was, about, get this, probaby policies. Asked whether pro baby was going to be the new prolife, young said pro baby was just a term of my creation to demonstrate my concern for babies. This is a Senior Correspondent in new york managers, ian covering Gender Politics and law, and she joins me now. I want to start, and as i was reading the story today, it strikes me that in the annals of political messaging, certainly in my lifetime and even longer, prolife is up there in the top five. Maybe with senior citizen, which is another totally incredible term. Prolife is an incredibly effective way of cleaning your message. And they have thought that for decades. They have used it, and the word life, as a kind of siren call, very effectively. So much so, chris, that actually people who supported Abortion Rates will tell pollsters that they were prolife. As you said, whose against life . Prochoice by contrast never satisfied anybody the movement that supports Abortion Rights because it was wishywashy and kind of libertarian. But republicans dont have a messaging problem. They have a woman getting sepsis problem. They have a teenager, or protein being forced to carry to term problem. They have a problem that the Alabama Attorney general says he will prosecute people who try to help people across state lines to get an abortion. No language change in the world can occlude the reality of what these policies actually mean beyond the rhetoric. That is extremely well said. And i think theres part of it to that is almost deeper than rare rhetoric, which is conceptual. The point is that you are seeing this is a human life. And it has to be treated like a human life, the sixweek fetus. That has implications. Legal implications. They dont want to face, but are the actual implications of the thing that they are saying. Even the alternative stretches conceptual reality. Pro baby, prolife, throwing people off medicaid or never extending into them in the first place, and pro again forcing people to give birth to fetuses or babies that will never be able to take more than a couple of breaths and live in pain, i think when we see even the paltry policy solution, its nice to see something, but even this is a weak scaffolding in the face of very hostile environments for low income parents. I think even what they are suggesting as an alternative, pro baby, pro mother, anybody reading the news, i mean voters are not stupid. We see again and again in referenda, in proxy elections the concern this issue, voters actually understand what is happening here, and so the attempt to change the subject is not effective so far. If the reality werent so hideous, them backing away from prolife would be actually kind of funny. I take some humor in it, because i have watched him use this for so long. This is all about politics, right . This is some of the quotes from the wall street journal story. This is ahead of a nonprofit minority leader mitch mcconnell, the has been the Killing Fields for the republicans the last few election cycles. And in the league for 71 of suburban women are somewhat opposed to the supreme courts decision. Heres how i think they understand it. And i want to give it to you and see what you think. I think they think that the extremes are what is killing them, politically. The story of the woman who has to get sepsis in the parking lot, the story of the texas woman who is forced to give birth and forced to carry to term or a non viable fetus. The woman in florida who had to hold this baby who took two breaths before it died. Her father in law called state sanctioned torture. Theyre like, if we can get rid of that, maybe we put some exceptions in and we get a consensus in 12 weeks, thats what they think and thats what were gonna message on. What do you think of it . I dont agree that the even want to engage that much. What theyre actually saying is that they want to go back to the old tried and true of focusing on leader of abortions. You hear the same republican say what we needed a 15week ban. Which one desantis did before a sixweek ban. I actually dont see them engaging those cases except to say somehow the doctors fault or the prochoice movements fault. They want to change the subject to exceptions, which we can see in ample reporting, do not exist even when they exist on paper. Its almost impossible to find a legal or medical outlet for these exemptions. And they just want to go back to saying that its democrats who are extreme. Thats why you are also seeing people, at least rhetorically, not so much with their bold votes on the national level, but saying everyone should be supportive of the 15week ban. I believe that was the position. I think was alabamas robin marti who pointed out that when were talking about a national 15week ban, theyre not talking about abortion being illegal in alabama for the first 15 weeks. Theyre talking about curtailing the rights of people in new york, colorado, theyre basically when they want abortion to be available through a pregnancy. So what they want to do is go back to an old song that just isnt playing very well with the voters anymore. They realize that this is not a theoretical debate anymore. Okay, many people have been able to cross state lines, but a white cast . We havent even heard all of those stories. I think voters are keenly aware of that, yes, the everyday stories are also upsetting and involve the denial peoples rights. Irin carmon, thanks so much for your time. Coming up, if you ever hear this saying its better to have a friend with a both and on one yourself . I have some bad news about the boots we all own. Coming up. Ll own coming up. The worlds 1 Sleep Aid Brand for a better night sleep. So now, he wakes up feeling like himself. The reigning family room middleweight champion. Better days start with zzzquil nights. My Mental Health was much better, but i struggled with uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia. Td can be caused by some Mental Health meds. And its unlikely to improve without treatment. I felt like my movements were in the spotlight. Ingrezza is a Prescription Medicine to treat adults with td movements. Ingrezza is different. Its the simple, oncedaily treatment proven to reduce td thats 1 prescribed. People taking ingrezza can stay on their current dose of most Mental Health meds. Ingrezza 80 mg is proven to reduce td movements in 7 out of 10 people. 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If you frequent tiktok, which i do, the influence of high pop music in cultures violence is across the world set to pop songs or signs it will soon become hit as a result. You can also see clear influence in kpop, the korean pop scene that has become a Global Fun Ops phenomenal scene. And draws its inspiration from mostly hiphop, the rhythm, the, affect the Street Fashion Scene is indebted to hiphop culture as well. As fashioned Technology Break for recent Museum Exhibit on her bob, quote, hiphop has spread around the globe, lending its influence to innumerable spaces. Style is one of the most pervasive invisible manifestation of the culture, and 24 century fashion, from luxury labels to everyday dress, those identity a pop. No question that hiphop was just turned 50 this year, was one of the most powerful influential explosive cultural forces ever to come out of america. 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House republicans are posturing ahead of the September 30th Government Funding deadline to cut things like aid to ukraine or social spending. Did not looking to cut anything from the countrys military budget. Republicans rarely are, even when you get stories like this one from propublica tonight about how much is being spent and how much is being wasted. This is the uss coronado, a modern United States warship called a literal, li t o r l, a combat ship, and these things are unbelievably expensive and supremely problematic. As propublica reports, each ship ultimately cost more than twice the original estimate. Ballooning the original 200 million plus price data about 500 million each. Worse, they were hobbled by an array of mechanical failures and were never able to carry out their missions. The program had its roots in 2002, which congress signing the next year could have a lifetime cost of more than 100 Billion Dollars may, a former Government Military analyst told propublica. Top navy leaders repeatedly dismissed or ignored warnings about the ships flaws. One Navy Secretary and his allies in congress fought to build more of the ships even as they broke down at sea and their Weapons System fails. During 1 10 month stretch beginning in December 2015 five in the vessels broke down across the globe, including one that, quote, hadnt made it halfway down the east coast, little on to the south china sea, before breaking down. Propublica found the contractors who stood to profit spent millions lobbying congress, whose members, in term, fought to build more ships in their home districts then the navy wanted. Scores are frustrated sailors recall spending more time fixing the ships than sailing them. Joining me now is propublica reported behind this fantastic story, joaquin sapien, a great piece of reporting. Its one of those oh my word, its very comprehensive, very documented. So i remember covering a bit when i was in d. C. For the nation, the f35, which was kind of the iconic boondoggle. This thing is always behind schedule, always over budget, never there. I have not heard of the elsie as. Tell us about this ship. It was actually some similarities there, because the f35 and the elsies and both meant to be modular. The Elsie Ehsan Particular is a Swiss Army Knife for the navy in that it could accomplished all these types of missions in the idea was, it could pull back into dark, be swiftly swapped out, almost like in a nascar race, and go back out to sea and do something else. Not fast, small, small crew, different weapon kits on board. So you could hunt submarines, you could hunt underwater mines and destroy them, which is a really important task today, specially since we have so many Aging Minesweepers in our navy now. They could fight other warships. That was the idea. Unfortunately many of the weapons on the ships never worked, and the navy basically just gave up all together on the ships being able to hunt submarines and shift that to a new ship. The Lion Hunting Function is still under development. We are now just probably 20 years in on that. It really has pretty basic anti Surface Warfare equipment. It seems like it was a jack of all trades, this vision of the one officer who snowball the people on it. Originally the idea came out in 2001, and there was a chief of Naval Operations vernon clark who saw the ship is being very important for the navy to operate closer to shore in places like the persian gulf, to track down drug dealers and gun runners in places like the caribbean and work with ally navy smaller ally navies in places like Southeast Asia and so the ships were going to be really important for the navy at that time. But these things take a long, long time to build. And by the time they rolled out, the world has changed and we really dont have the same set of needs that we did when they first were envisioned. We made how many of them . The navy wound up with about 35 of them. Originally they were going to have more than 50. Thats what they wanted. At every stage of this, there are people raising red flags. Sailors who are like, these sock. These breakdown. Theres jokes, people like talking about there always docked, theres red flag after red flag through the years. Not one person as you dont have the story, people are being like stop, no, these dont work, they are bad. Why does it keep going . Thats right. Over the years there are a number of investigations that were empaneled by the navy, within the pentagon, that showed all of these flaws that our story lays out. But what we found is that once these things gain momentum, they can be very difficult to kill. Part of the reason for that is because members of congress represent districts where these ships are built. And so it is in their interests to keep the jobs that these ships provide alive. And so what we wound up with, in fact, even when the navy decided they wanted only cut it to 32 ships, we got us a few more tacked on and got 35. The navy has finally thrown in the towel here, right . The navy has essentially decided that because many of the ships are not going to be able to fight a pure competitor like china, they now want to decommission them. They are citing specifically one of the modules that doesnt work, which is the anti submarine module. So they tried to decommission nine of the freedom Class Versions of these ships last year, but they were blocked by congress, and they only got away with decommissioning congresses you can decommission them, you have to keep them going. Some of the members that are representing districts where the ships were being based fought against this effort to decommission them, and we wound up with fewer of them decommissioned than what the navy. Wanted eventually these things are gonna end up, what, in a shipyard rotting away, Two Billion Dollars the cost of everything . One was decommissioned last month they didnt make it five years old. It was the last 25. Another one is going to be decommissioned later on this month that also is not going to make it to its anticipated lifespan. The navy wants to retire to more. One of those would last only nine years. Under the current plan and so theyre gonna wind up in graveyards all over the country. If youre watching this, your Defense Contractor in getting upset, dont worry, theres going to be more programs like this in the future. Theyll keep coming. The budget was like 142 billion. Dollars joaquin sapien, thank you very much. That is all in for this week. Alex wagner tonight starts right. Now good evening alex. Alex i can count on one hand the number of times you start a sentence with if you are a Defense Counter watching this. I appreciate this is a show for everybody. Looking out for everyone. True, great content my friend. Even for Defense Contractors. I thank you at home for joining us this evening. We have breaking news tonight involving the case against donald trump and his alleged coconspirators in the state of georgia. Now, if youve been following this case, you know that former trump Chief Of Staff mark meadows has been trying to get his trim Criminal Trial moved from State Court Into Federal court. Mr. Meadows claimed that all of the alleged criminal