of ukrainians. there are thousands of them and highly trained ukrainian military backed by the best tank killing machines in the world that we provided them. russia approaches a meat grinder and they know it and they're scared. >> so what would be the, you know, the case for doing it? it does seem to me that they've faced, you know, a very determined population. we made it clear we don't want them there. we face it in iraq. iraq had a government people didn't support. so they weren't fighting for the government. there is nobody fighting for the government. in this case, they are going to fight for that government. they are going to fight for each other. it seems to me -- i guess i keep saying this, it doesn't seem sane to take the city but they are determined to do it. what would be the case for trying? >> they will attempt it. they don't have to take the same -- they aren't trying to get everything out like we did in fallujah. the iraqi government wanted