trillion. stephen dennis of bloomberg news on the bigger picture here he said there's sort of a big fight in washington that you may have heard about, it's about whether we spend 62 trillion dollars over a decade or 60 trillion dollars. joining me now is stephanie carleton professor of -- the deficit mid, professor carleton, good to see you again, thank you for being with us. i've never generally speaking read numbers, i don't like talking about them on tv, this is the one problem we're talking about numbers, we put prices on bills, but we leave the discussion about the value within those bills till later. so the debate is about bringing the 3.5 trillion to two trillion. none of us know, most people don't know what the value was in that bill, what's being cut, and what's been installed because of it. that's exactly right we get really bogged down because these numbers feel so large, and they are large. and most of us can't wrap our heads around it, and of course