over time? is it going to create economic growth? is it worth the cost to that borrowing, and it's an awful lot of investments that pass that test. >> another thing built into the cost of this infrastructure bill is there hasn't been infrastructure bills for several years. so if you neglected the maintenance, if you've neglected the upkeep, of course it's going to be more expensive than doing regular maintenance. >> that's exactly right. i mean, again, you look at the federal debt, the federal debt doesn't include deferred maintenance. it doesn't include the cost of not investing in children and children that don't go to preschool don't grow up and succeed and have the earnings they would otherwise have. we have a lot of costs out there and part of this is recognizing them, addressing them sooner, and that's a smarter, more cost-effective thing to do.