ukrainian oligarch with ties to the russian mob, so they were, i think, trying to effectuate this really corrupt trade where they would get information from this ukrainian oligarch, manufactured dirt about joe biden that's not true, supply it to rudy giuliani who would supply it to the president of the united states, and in return, they were going to try to deliver for this ukrainian oligarch who is under indictment some kind of dismissal from the justice department or some kind of way for him to get out of his case. it is as corrupt as you can be and now you have both of them under indictment and rudy giuliani under investigation. you know, look, these aren't the first members of donald trump's legal team to go to jail. obviously, his former personal attorney went to jail. and i think you're right, if i were them, though, i would be much more scared of offending this ukrainian oligarch with ties to the russian mob than i would be federal prosecutors. >> matt miller, mimi rocah, thank you both for your expertise tonight. really appreciate it. and when we come back, tim o'brien has expertise in donald trump's taxes because he's actually seen trump tax returns