Transcripts For MSNBC The Katie Phang Show 20240706

And lots of questions to answer, so lets get started. We begin this hour with Breaking News. The washington post, reporting that House Republicans are preparing a controversial plan. If the debt limit is breached. Ahead of whats expected to be a major showdown with the white house. Plus, talk about uncharted territory. A current and former u. S. President , both under investigation for mishandling classified materials. The difference between the two cases are worlds apart, but could documents found at bidens Office Complicate The Criminal Probe Into donald trump . And later, why liars lie . Is there a Science Behind embattled congressman, George Santos is a mountain of lies, or is gop deception just part of the new normal . All of that and more is coming up. And good saturday morning to you all. I am katie phang. We begin the hour with Breaking News. The washington post, reporting that House Republicans are preparing a controversial plan if the debt limit is breached. They threatened to not lift the debt ceiling. As treasury secretary, janet yellen, warns, if the United States is expected to reach the maximum amount, it can borrow on thursday. And that extraordinary measures are needed to keep the government funded. Nbcs Julie Tsirkin is live on capitol hill with more. Julie, good morning. Yeah, good morning, katie. Look, janet yellen made her claim. Now, these House Republicans who threatened not to raise the debt ceiling and not deliver any votes to mccarthy for his Speakership Gavel if he did not go through with their concession are now making their ears, in the form of these plans. Im told there still under discussion, but this is that chip roy led faction of those deficit hawks in the House Freedom caucus who think the government is spending too much money, you dont want to help democrats raise the debt ceiling. This isnt a new issue. Weve been in the same position every few years, but this one is more reminiscent of 2011, when then president obama had to deal with an incoming republican class who also proposed some of these same things we are seeing now, such as telling the Treasury Department to prioritize certain programs over others. We are told right now that discussions have to do with keeping the department of defense, social security, all of these Income Payments that are necessary afloat, but cutting a lot of other spending from free Childhood Carrot to lunches in schools. All of these programs that americans greatly rely on. And this right now is just messaging, thats how we have to look at it. But the problem is that this, for the first time, potentially not both sides are willing to raise the debt ceiling. They are willing, according to aaa and its faction to blow past it and breach it, because they are so concerned about the debt. And remember, one of the key concessions that mccarthy made to get the gavel is a motion to vacate. Any one of them can actually call for a vote of no confidence that requires just a simple threat majority threshold to pass. So, if these concessions are made, if mccarthy doesnt go along with his plan to avoid raising the debt ceiling and really risking catastrophe for the government for the first time, defaulting on its debt, that he could potentially risk the gavel, katie. Julie, more republicans are also calling on embattled congressman, George Santos, to resign. The latest being former house speaker, paul ryan. Whats your take . Any sign that George Santos will actually heed these calls . Look, he saying he wont. He says he wont resign, he even said he wont do so unless all of the 142,000 people that voted for him will say so. But its every Single Member of his House Freshman Republican Class from new york has called on him to resign. However, its also notable that no member of house gop leadership has called on him to do so and until that happens, its unlikely hes going to give up his seat. 142,000 people, julie, voted for someone that they thought was George Santos, but looks like maybe thats not going to be the case. Nbcs Julie Tsirkin, as always, im thankful for you getting up and hanging out with us, and getting us started. Thanks for being here. And later this hour, more on the coming Debt Ceiling Drama with congresswoman, Jasmine Crockett, and what is shaping up to be the first major Battle On The Hill since House Republicans won that slim majority. Meanwhile, the republicanled House Judiciary Committee has officially launched an investigation into President Bidens handling of classified documents. That news came one day after nbc news reported one of the documents found at the Penn Biden Center was marked as top secret. Lets bring in white house correspondent, allie raffa, traveling with the president in wilmington. Ali, whats the reaction been from the biden camp and, frankly, where are we headed from here . Yeah, katie, good morning. Well, reaction from the biden camp has really been sparse as, you know, theyve been really facing questions about this all week since the discovery of that first of documents. And you have republicans for their part reacting swiftly and heavily. We mentioned the House Republicanled judiciary committee, which jim jordan, announcing the loss of this probe yesterday into the dojs handling of this probe into this mishandling of these documents, rather. But really, for democrats part, theyre pointing to the differences in the case between President Bidens and his predecessors, saying that for at least the time being, thats all they can say, as this Investigation Rolls forward. Longtime biden ally, democratic senator, delaware senator, chris quds even said that americans, for the most, part are most focused on Kitchen Table issues, pocketbook issues, rather than the mishandling of these documents. But at the end of the day, this white house was really planning on using the next few weeks to tout their accomplishments over the last two years, ahead of their announcement of whats going to come for the next two years, possibly even four after that. Theyre really on defense and that has been on full display this week, in the form of these Press Briefings by press secretary, kareem jeanpierre. I want you to listen to what she had to say to my colleague, kristen welker, when kristen asked for yesterday whether President Biden would be willing to fully cooperate with the Special Counsels investigation, if the Special Counsel asked for a sitdown interview. Listen here. Again, that is something that i dont have a magic wand here, i dont know when thats going to happen. What i can say is, his team is going to fully cooperate with the department of justice. Lets not forget, the president said during the campaign that when it comes to the department of justice independents, he respects that. And that is something that he had said was incredibly important to make sure that they had their independence. Thats why we say we are going to make sure that they have their independence. Katie, as far as where this all goes from here, thats really the question were all asking ourselves at this point. How long this probe will possibly last, whether it could impact the plans that President Biden is expected to make on whether or not he will run in 2024. So, lots of questions still to be answered, katie. Allie raffa, my friend, its always good to see you. Thanks for joining us this morning from wilmington. We appreciate it. You know, we know that there are major differences in the classified documents investigations into President Biden and former President Trump. But i want to know, what will this mean for the 2024 president ial election . Coming up, i will put that question to my saturday morning power Political Panel. And we have Breaking News overnight in the middle east. Iran says, it has executed ali raise a akbari, a dual british Iranian National who is once a high ranking official in irans defense ministry. State officials have accused akbari, without any evidence, of serving as a source for british intelligence. Several western nations have including the United States have warned iran against following through with the planned execution. The United Kingdom has already condemned the execution this morning, calling, it barbaric and saying, it will not go unchallenged. Now, to the latest out of ukraine. Explosions in the capital city of kyiv and northeastern city of kharkiv this morning, as Russian Missile strikes continue. Targeting crucial infrastructure facilities, according to ukrainian officials. Meanwhile, russia now says, its taken control of the small eastern city of soledar. It will be its first victory in months, but ukrainian officials are saying, that is not happening. For more on all of this, we turn to nbc news correspondent, matt bradley, in venetia. Thats right. Residents of ukraines capital up to the sound, once again, of incoming missiles striking, once again, civilian targets mostly. Electricity infrastructure. Now, this is something that has not happened for the past nearly two weeks, but it is something of a common occurrence in kyiv and throughout the country. There were Missile Strikes again this morning in other cities throughout ukraine. But what was unusual about the attack this morning was that the alarm, the air raid siren, was not triggered and these missiles were not able to be intercepted. We heard from the spokesperson for the Ukrainian Air force who said that this might be because russia was using Ballistic Missiles. These are harder to detect and harder to intercept. That might be why they didnt trigger the alarm and they werent as easily intercepted by Ukrainian Anti air defenses. So, this was something that was startling because russia has actually depleted its use of Ballistic Missiles in the past. But its something that a lot of ukrainians are expecting to see repeated, as russia continues its pattern of striking civilian infrastructure far beyond the front lines. But on the frontlines, it comes a day after the Russian Forces declared victory over the city of soledar. Thats a city in the eastern part of the country. Now, ukraine has said that that city is still in ukrainian hands. They are still fighting going on. However, if there is fighting, analysts have said that is probably on the outskirts of the city and they seem to think, for the most part, that the russians have successfully taken the city of soledar. But if they have taken the city of soledar, its also opened up some sightings of divisions within the kremlin. This city was mostly taken by a private Military Contractor called the wagner group, led by an all guard who is close to vladimir putin, named yevgeny brick ocean. Now, this man leads the wagner group, which has stopped mostly with convicts who have come from prisons from throughout russia, who preach again has recruited with promises of a partner. Now, these men were sent to the ukrainian front lines just relentlessly in waves that a lot of ukrainians have called meat waves, because they can so devastatingly cut down, we can ukrainian defenses, thats what allowed them finally to take that eastern city of soledar. Now, the russians have said that taking soledar allows them to strike the city of bakhmut, which is only about 30 minutes away. But western analysts and the u. S. And in ukraine have said that soledar and bakhmut dont really pose any real strategic significance. A lot of this was done, and i spoke with ukrainian intelligence official two days ago who said, this was basically just an effort by prigozhin himself, this oligarchy, to try to raise his stature in the ranks of the Defense Establishment in moscow. Now, hes doing that, hes doing it on the backs of a lot of the corpses of the men who are stalking his own private army. All right, our thanks to you, matt bradley, for that latest. Now we will turn to california, where the torrential rain just wont let up. The state is forecast to see rain for several more days, producing flooding and heavy mountain snow, which will make for dangerous travel conditions. In addition, a national says, landslides will remain a threat due to the extremely saturated soil. Since new years eve, hundreds of thousands of californians have lost power. Many, multiple times, as heavy rains and strong winds have pounded drought stressed land, Toppling Trees on the power lines. Stay with msnbc for the latest from california. And still ahead in our show, we are following the latest on the controversy surrounding the classified documents found at president s present bidens former office and in his delaware home. We will take a deeper dive into what the newly named Special Counsel may be looking into and the major differences between this and what was found that trumps florida home. Also this morning, farright agenda starting to take shape on capitol hill, as the new maga house plows ahead with everything from defunding the irs to strict abortion measures. Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett is here. Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett is here. Is here. 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In bidens case, a very small number of documents were found at his home. And fewer than a dozen were found at an Office Closet in the Penn Biden Center. A lot of bidens documents were discovered by his attorneys and immediately turned over to the national archives. On the other hand, trumps hundreds, if not more of documents were demanded by the national archives, then seized by the fbi via a search warrant, which then prompted an Obstruction Of Justice criminal investigation. Of course, republicans dont want you to think about those differences. They want you to think the actions of these two men were identical. This morning, we are here to focus on just the facts. And ive got the perfect guest to help me do that. Joining me is dan smallest, criminal defense attorney and msnbc legal analyst. Danny, its always good to have you here. You heard me just briefly lay out some of the major differences between these two kind of, i dont even want to use the word cases, any, because frankly theres not a case in the Biden Situation. But lets be frank, does the existence of the Biden Situation now make it harder for the doj, through the Special Counsel, jack smith, to potentially bring charges against donald trump . Politically, of course. I would say even practically, and im glad you mentioned jack smith because theres been a lot of talk this week about robert hur Special Counsel, but now eyes are really on jack smith. Hes in a really different position, at least politically now. Of course, hes going to remain independent, just like robert hur. We expect they both will. But look, in the last week, weve been talking a lot about two concepts. Inadvertence and overclassification. And that is fine, when it comes to the two prong issue of, why were the documents removed, and what was done when they were found . But that means that we have to give that same difference, the inadvertence and the overclassification discussion to donald trump. In other words, inadvertence means, where they accidentally taken . And overclassification is a very real discussion about the fact that documents by default or over classified. But as you said, once you get past the issue of, why were the documents removed . These are dramatically Different Cases and most of the potential criminal charges stem not from the removal and retention of the documents, although that is the subject of a federal criminal law, but more after what was done when the documents were found. And in the Biden Situation, you have attorneys coming forward and saying, oops, look what we have. And in the trump situation, you have such a huge difference because you may even have fraudulently submitted documents, affirmations, possibly, that were false about whether the documents were still there and what was going on with them. So, as with all things, it comes down to more the coverup. Thats where most of the potential criminal liability lies. And that is why President Biden may face lesser criminal responsibility, or none at all, but politically speaking, there are very serious consequences. Danny, you and i, as trial lawyers, focus on what the government has to prove, and that is intent, especially when it comes to obstruction. It also speaks of this idea of inadvertence that you just mentioned a minute ago. I know there is a political uptick that happens with the cooperation thats coming from the Biden Administration right now, but i want you to look at it from the legal perspective. Does that then military it, for somebody like robert her, or jack smith, the intent, the willingness and the intention by trump versus somebody like biden, to hide, to obfuscate, to make sure that this classified documents arent found . So glad you brought that up because in criminal law, yes, it can be mitigating when defendant comes forward and says, look, i did something wrong, i want to make amends, i want to be open about it. And oftentimes, that can mitigate the crime, but it doesnt necessarily exonerate the original crime. And of course, jack smith and robert hur know that, but again, politics finds its way into this controversy. And the fact that bidens team came forward with this information right away is not only mitigating, but it might ultimately exonerate biden because it goes to the intent. It goes to whether or not the documents were removed actually by biden at his direction, knowingly, or whether it was inadvertent. And if its inadvertent, now we have kind of a paradoxical situation because historically, the administrative remedy, its an administrative remedy, not a criminal remedy. And often, people who are Movies Documents will have their Security Clearances revoked or suspended. You cant do that with the sitting president , so you get into a very strange situation when we talk about the remedy. But absolutely, the fact that the biden team came forward with this, not only mitigates, but it may negate the ultimate crime, because it disapproves intent. Danny cevallos, theres so much thats going to be happening. We will have you back, especially when we see what the next steps are by robert hur. Weve all been looking at Special Counsel, jack smith, very carefully to see if theres some bread crumbs there that we can kind of decipher. I thank you for being here this morning, i appreciate it. Coming up, it seems republicans learned nothing from the 2020 election, as the new House Majority pushes its extremist agenda. How do democrats plan to fight back . Congresswoman, Jasmine Crockett, is up next. Jasmine crockett, is up next is up next age is just a number, and mines unlisted. 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This threat comes just days after republicans voted to slash funding for the irs, in a move that would increase the Budget Deficit by more than 114 billion dollars. Thats according to the congressional budget office. Republicans also voting this week to create a powerful new committee to investigate perceived wrongdoing by the federal government against former President Trump and conservatives. On wednesday, the house passed to abortion related measures. One of which outlines new criminal penalties for doctors who failed to resuscitate babies born after an attempted abortion. While all these bills are likely dead on arrival on the democraticcontrolled senate, how dangerous are these moves and how the democrats plan to fight back . Joining me now is democratic congresswoman, Jasmine Crockett. Congresswoman, congratulations first and foremost, on being sworn into office. We have always been honored when youve joined our program. This morning, its the same, but i wanted to ask you straight out of the gate, republicans, they love to claim the mantle of fiscal responsibility, yet here they are, pulling america hostage because theyre preparing to let the u. S. Default on its debt if they dont get their way. How reckless is this tactic for all americans . First of all, its great to see you, its great to finally be sworn in. It only took an extra week, but nevertheless, you know, what im so frustrated about is the fact that people continue to put people in power who do nothing more than hurt them. Theyre going to hurt not just our credit and how are standing in his world, but theyre going to hurt the American People. Theyre going to hurt the Working Class people, yet this is who we have in control. The idea that somebody has gone to work for years, and years, and years, and then theyve paid into social security, and then this party wants to say, you know what . We dont know if we are going to pay you, even though we know the you are relying upon that money, even though we know that you gave your all in service for 15, 20, maybe 30 years, we dont care about that. And that is what we have in this party. I notice you are playing music, you know, if we could have a theme song for this party, it would be, michael jacksons, they dont care about you. So, they dont care about you. So, congresswoman, look, House Republicans, they also are i think wasting time approving a new subcommittee to probe the alleged weaponization of the federal government against conservatives, as Speaker Mccarthy said he would. And hes also considering expunging former President Trumps impeachments. Take a quick listen. Theres been some interest coming from some of your rank and file republicans to possibly introduce a resolution to expunge one of former President Trumps impeachments and possibly vote. What do you think of that . Is that something you would be supportive of . I understand why all individual i mean, congresswoman, you know, its performative politics, whats happening right now in the house with that gop majority. Is this what the American People need congress to be focusing on . Absolutely not. But listen, you saw how difficult it was for Kevin Mccarthy to get that gavel and so, we dont know all the deals that were made. But considering the fact that hes been screaming the praises of the former president has no qualms about saying that he most likely made a deal with the president to pull in some of the support from some of those people that were against him. You saw that iconic photo, a photo that we normally would not be able to get, of Marjorie Taylor greene with donald trump on the phone, trying to hand it to matt gates. And so, we know that Kevin Mccarthy sold anything that was not nailed down, to try to get this gavel. And hes going to be beyond not to mention, one thing that the American People are constantly talking about is bipartisanship. And i think that right now, theyre learning that honestly, this isnt really a matter of democrats and republicans. The republicans cant even figure out how to govern in and of themselves. But if you want to get something done in this particular congress, in the 118th, then you have to come up with bills that focus on the people because we do still have the white house and we do still have the senate, and honestly, im thankful that they want to be so ridiculous and so radical. Because this is showing the American People why they have to get up, yet again in 2024, and make sure that they put the adults in the room back into position to be able to take care of them. And that means that they go out and they vote for us, democrats, and make sure that we take the house back. Ive got less than a minute left, but i wanted to ask you, whats your game plan . You heal from the great state of texas, thats where you had to fight a Big Battle Against kind of have the same battleground are looking at right now that house gop majority and the house. So, whats your strategy . No, so for me, im actually going to go in, i will fight for the things that matter to texans. We know that when i was elected on may 24th and when i won my primary, runoff, that was the same day as uvalde, so ive got to make sure that im finally gun legislation. Obviously, senior members that are ahead of me are filing the big bills, bans on Assault Weapons and things like that. But i want to see if we can expand on exactly what Homeland Security does and see if there is an opportunity. Because a lot of these folks are jumping online, making these threats online. We know the uvalde shooter was called a School Shooter because of the things that he said online. And so, what i want to look into is, what jurisdiction, if any, we can grant to Homeland Security to make sure that we are protecting those that are so brazen to go online and make these threats about doing these large shootings, these mass shootings, as well as so many other things. Obviously, we reproductive rights, obviously voting rights, things that initiate right in the state of texas. But listen, katie, it was so fantastic to see. Im happy that im finally sworn in and i wish you well this weekend. And we are looking forward to seeing what you are going to accomplish on behalf of not only texans, but the rest of america. Congresswoman, Jasmine Crockett, thanks again for being here, i appreciate you. Thank you. Coming up, a tale of two president s and the document drama that could set the tone for the 2024 president ial election. My question is, do voters truly care . My power Political Panel is up next. Powerol pitical panel is up next next y important. 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But immediate momentum is real. So, which is it . Do voters truly care and do they care about the substantive differences between the trump case and the Biden Situation . Lets bring in my saturday morning power Political Panel. Valencia johnson is a political strategist and the founder and Chief Impact Officer of ten 63 west broad. Susan del percio is a republican strategist and msnbc political analyst. Two incredibly smart and very thoughtful women to start the day. Valencia, id love to toss the first question to you. Lets talk about 2024. It sounds like its far away. 22 months, but look, thats on a trinity in politics and a lot of things can change. But some would say that this biden scandal who, as theyre calling it, could make the gop primary easier for donald trump. Are you buying that . Im not really buying that. Lets talk about these two Different Cases that were talking about, right . One, we have someone who is intentionally obstructing justice and then to, President Bidens voluntarily said that they had found these documents and they turned them over. So, theyre cooperating with the department of justice. I think theres a way to have a conversation and show the deep contrast at the same time, talk about all the achievements that President Biden has accomplished in the two years and going to do over the next two years. So, i didnt really try that its actually going to give President Trump or former President Trump anymore steam, any more gas then the president ial campaign in 2024, some soundbites on fox news that even some Republican Voters are tired of all these conversations and really Want Congress to get the work and provide for the American People. And susan, those soundbites that we just heard about from valencia, predictably, thats exactly what republicans are doing, right . Theyre working the airwaves, trying to commit to americans that the biden and trump cases are one in the same. But susan, do republicans really think that voters are gullible enough to buy what they are selling . Well, heres the thing. I completely agree with both of you. These are completely different types of cases. However, heres the headline. Both president , former President Trump and current President Biden are under investigation by the doj for handling of classified records. Thats what happens in day today conversation and what people pick up. I know it is different, but you know, i also know politics and when youre explaining, youre losing. And thats the problem that the democrats will have with this, as far as trying to show the differences. What it does for the democrats, more importantly though, is takes away the argument about going after trump for handling classified documents. That was believed to be one of the best cases against donald trump legally and politically. So, it puts them in a little bit of a box. The other thing it does is politically, its taken away the momentum that President Biden has had, rightfully had. And now he has to think about, do i postpone my announcement . It really does put a bump in the road and the fact is, as an issue, its like a two or a three. But when weaponized politically by the republicans, it gets closer to a seven or eight. Valencia, lets talk about messaging. Very important, always relevant. Do you think the biden response thus far has been on point . Theres been something coming from the white house via karine jeanpierre. But, you know, is that theyre more should be done in terms of an explanation . Critics have said, theres not enough data thats coming out from the biden camp explaining the timing on the disclosure to the American Public. You know, i appreciate that President Biden would continue to say, we are cooperating with the investigation, our lawyers are turning over those documents, all of that. I do think that there should be a little more transparency because, as susan was talking about, we have to talk about this contrast. There is going to be a contrast. We have to be a little bit more transparent, but the biden team is probably waiting for more of the facts to come out and not give have to walk it back because right now, we are already in a predicament where the current president is under investigation. Thats not giving us the best headline, when we really want to be talking about that inflation is down for six months in a row. And so, we want to make sure, i think the biden team is trying to make sure that they have all the facts and they cant, you know, have the American People not trust the president now when hes done so much work to get his Phone Numbers out, to get, you know, the confidence back in this president. So, we will see the white house being very careful, ensuring that theyre cooperating with the investigation. But also not putting us back into a place of really hard defense, where it will be hard for us to get out of. Susan, i have to throw the last question to you. As a republican strategist, im really interested in this debt ceiling argument. Republicans tried this back in 2011 and 2013, in the obama administration. They actually look into it and they were told, its not going to work. In fact, it risks republicans being viewed by the American Public as holding the economy hostage. What are your thoughts on what this republican plan is to be able to tell the Biden Administration youre either playing ball or were going to walk array with the toy . Its horrible, stupid, irresponsible. And on top of it, its not going to play well with the public besides the obvious things that you just highlighted. The way that mccarthy became speaker shows that the republicans are in disarray, that they cant manage themselves. So, what happens when this argument comes in . The American Public already knows that the senate, the house, rather, cant even get their act straight. So, theyre going to automatically default to it being the republicans causing the problem, versus looking for a solution. So, especially given the way they came out of the gate with some of their votes, i think there are going to fall apart at the seams and theres a lot of moderate republicans out there who are elected in biden districts, 18 of them, who are going to be brought to this kicking and screaming. My thanks to this mornings power Political Panel. Alencia johnson and susan del percio, cant wait to have you both back to be able to break the rest of this stuff down. Thanks for being here this morning. Thank you. And coming up, yeah, there have been so many George Santos falsehoods, lies, lets call them that, we can probably all pick our favorite one by now. But as we get to the bottom of them, theres one thing we still dont know, why he did it. After the break, what science tells us about why liars lie. Stay with us. About why liars lie stay with us stay with us nexium 24hr prevents Heartburn Acid for twice as long as pepcid. Get allday and allnight Heartburn Acid prevention with just one pill a day. Choose acid prevention. Choose nexium. Ma ma ma ma [clears throut] for fast sore throat relief, try Vicks Vapocool drops with two times more menthol per drop , and the powerful rush of vicks vapors for fastacting relief you can feel. Vicks vapocool drops. Fast relief you can feel. My a1c stayed here, it needed to be here. Vicks vapocool drops. Rays a1c is down with rybelsus®. Im down with rybelsus®. My a1c is down with rybelsus®. In a clinical study, oncedaily rybelsus® significantly lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill. In the same study, people taking rybelsus® lost more weight. Rybelsus® isnt for people with type 1 diabetes. 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And so, he couldnt possibly have been a, quote, star on the universities volleyball team, as he has claimed. Santos also admitting to lying about working at two major wall street firms. He boasted about being jewish, but later backtracked to instead identify as jewish, because his, quote, Maternal Family had a jewish background. He argued that one of the most headscratching claims was the timing of his mothers death. Santos tweeted that 9 11 claimed his mothers life, who he said was in her office in the south tower the day of the attack and that she passed away a few years later, when she lost her battle with cancer. The Public Employment records show that santoss mother actually worked for a Company Based in queens. We should say that santos has apologized for falsifying some of his resume, but says, he committed no crimes. Joining me now is Board Certified clinical psychologist, doctor jeff gardere. Dr. Gardere has no connection to congressman santos. Hes only here to share observations and he has not is not providing a diagnosis. Dr. Gardere, its a pleasure to have you here because, look, like we just said, were not trying to diagnose a medical condition for George Santos and his lying, but im actually struck by this report in the washington post. It said, why lawyers lie, the science. What science tells us about deception. I mean, its on your screen, its with donald trump, but it cites the study by a harvard cognitive neuroscientists, who found that people who are incentivized by Something Like money, for example, that theyre more inclined to lie, suggesting that they have an inability to resist temptation. Dr. Gardere, your brain actually changes physically from lying. Are you agreeing with that hypothesis that i just said from that article . Well, absolutely. When they do imaging studies, they find that people, when they are lying, their frontal lobe, which is where we have a lot of our intelligence and we make our decisions, tends to light up. Why . Because were thinking about that lie, over thinking about what it is that were seeing and how to fabricate something or embellished something. They also find that the amygdala, which is the Emotional Center of the brain, tends to light up also. Why . Because of the guilt, the emotional guilt that we sometimes experience when we are lying, because we know that basically, it is wrong. Doctor gardere, how does it stop, though, the Pathological Lying that we may be seeing in somebody like George Santos . And again, not a medical diagnosis here. But when theyre caught, in this George Santos example, does that make them stop or is the actual changes in the Brain Structure so much so that you literally cant go back . Well, i believe that you cant reverse that trend, but what were seeing here with this particular situation, its not just about being caught. Because he has been caught. Hes been caught many times. What happens, though, is is he being punished . So, when we are lying and we are not being punished, we are not being stopped, then there is this almost positive reinforcement to keep going. And we keep getting attention for it. And a lot of times, the lying is not just to benefit us, but it could be because it becomes compulsive at some point. The other thing, katie, that we have to look, at something called Cognitive Dissonance. I really do believe that there are people, when they lie so often, they have to almost believe their own lives because of the Cognitive Dissonance of living with something that they know is a lie. So, what we see is a lot of rationalization. Well, yeah, i really do believe this, or, well, i have to keep telling that lie because now im a victim. People are coming after me. Maybe its the better look that i need, in order to survive. I read something that was interesting to, doctor. Before i have to let you go, it was a quote. It says, we as a society, need to understand that when we dont punish line, we increase the probability it will happen again. I mean, this was set by a scientist, right . This was not sent by me to my seven or my eight year old. So, in this instance, is the Public Shaming of somebody like George Santos, public calling out of his lies, do you think that thats actually part of what would be the Wreck Prerequisite punishment to try to deter more lying from somebody like George Santos . Well, of course, i dont believe in Public Shaming. But i do believe in stopping someone because theyre hurting other people with their lives. And theyre also hurting themselves, right . Do no harm, i think, is important for me as a psychologist. But i think the most important point here is that even though he has been caught, hes not being stopped because hes still being supported by people who are higher up in government. And therefore, that keeps him going on. Doctor jeff gardere, we are going to have you back to talk about enabling, we are going to have you back to talk about a lot of that other stuff, but this morning, thank you so much for joining us because i find this to be absolutely fascinating. The medicine and the science, white lawyers lie. I appreciate you being here this morning. And we will be right back. D we will be right back. cecily whats up, einstein . einstein my network has gone kaput cecily you tried to save a buck on it . einstein not so smart. cecily well, there is a smarter way to save. einstein oh . cecily switch to verizon vo thats right. For a limited time get verizon unlimited for just 25 a line, guaranteed for 3 years. einstein brilliant vo only on verizon. 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