the two came to know of each other after two months at middle earth. yonny is happy he is alive but not happy in attending the rescue. many dramatic scenes, the men surfaced one by one to embrace their loved ones. media from around the world covering a story that has transcended language and culture, a story of hope and survival what has united the world, every briefly. >> good evening, we can only guess at the frustration and anguish of those chilean miners an their families during the 69 days of captivity deep underground. [ speaking a foreign language ] . here we go. there it is! bravo! success. he has made it to the surface. >> we need this as a world much i think we do. >> some example to the world. >> i want to see every one of these guys out of here and i want to see, you know, a general sense that we, as a world, we as a nation, that everybody has something good. >> well, perhaps the star so far, the second miner, mario sepulveda, calling him super mario after his raucous return to the surface, came up bearing rocks from middle earth, souvenirs whipping the crowd into a chanting frenzy. president obama today praising all the miners for their courage. >> the tears they shed after so much time apart express not only their own relief, not only their own joy but the joy of people everywhere. >> the last miner to be out will be shift supervisor luis urzua. he they rationed the water and food for the first 17 days underground, 17 days before those on the surface inu they were alive. he, a hero among heroes and will be the last to emerge in the hours ahead. we will be watching, of course, the mine and bringing you live coverage of each miner as they emerge, as it happens. while we wait, i do want to bring in mining expert homer hick ham, the author of "october sky". homer is, is there anything comparable that even occurs to you that has not only this level of drama but this level of inspiration and this level of endurance and courage? >> sure, you could watch movie "october sky" and get a little piece of that. but, no, i remember the cue creek miners, nine for nine, remember that back around 2000, we brought up all of the -- of those miners and i predicted they would all get alive and i have been predicting that most likely, we could would get all 33. now, we have still got our fingers crossed, still a ways to go, but i tell you what, my hat's off to the chilean government, the managers on the ground down there and the miners themselves. they are showing typical miner resolve, psychological toughness and just a joy for life. i mean, mario, you got to love him. >> if you were to look at the cultural collection that is this village now at the top of the mine, what is the life like on the surface for those who have come together, not just chile yans, nasa experts, family members, the convergence of humanity in a moment like this has to be truly one of the most unique emotional experiences that can really be borne witness to it by a human. >> i think one of the really cool things about this is the way that the americans have kind of backed off. in fact, it was an american crew that drilled down and busted through to the miners. of course, nasa has been down there, trying to help with the psychology of miners, they didn't really need that help but it was a thought and also helping in the design of that tube, which my dad designed one very similar about 50 years ago. but this is a -- i like the fact that the americans backed off and let the chileans celebrate here. in order to be a great nation, you have to do great things and chile has definitely done a great thing with these miners. >> to natalie morales we go conducting extraordinary live coverage from co-pie ya poe, watch sam alvar res come out of the ground, miner 22, what can you tell us about this gentleman? >> hey, dylan, first of all what really strikes me about this whole operation so far is that we are learning so much about these men. remarkable we are so fix say theed on every little detail about their lives. he is 43 years old he was just five months on this job went mine collapsed. he came here after an earthquake that destroyed the southern part of chile and looking to establish a better life for himself and his family. he has a wife named ruth. he has three boys and, in fact, an interesting aspect of this whole rescue effort here is that his brother-in-law has really been a part of the team in helping rescue him. his brother-in-law was one of the guys who actually invited him to come work in the mines. so gave him really that access to the job but also is helping in this, as you see him out now, out of that mine shaft and putting on all his -- getting ready to go into the triage area, but a lot of that due to the efforts of his brother-in-law as well as the thousand or so others and there he is greeting his wife, ruth. and as i said, he has three sons. you know, you cannot get tired. interesting, i'm working on a story for nightly news tonight and the one thing that we keep saying is a hug never could feel so good. and as you look at that picture, you can only imagine after 70 days underground, what that embrace must feel like, each and every time and i think we are all just so moved by it. the first time i saw that i was crying. now the 22nd time, i'm still -- you get emotional it is really remarkable. >> the interesting thing, natalie, you and kerry sand verse done a tremendous job in reporting, the community that had to be established underground for these people to survive, some people are working as medical assistant, others as a pastor. i understand that this gentleman was responsible for the air quality underground. can you speak a little bit to the division of labor and development of the community help them get through this together underground? >> yes. that is really what is so remarkable. they are all heroes here. they all have their special test, whetherer topographes, one had the presence of mind to ration out two days of food over 17 days, those first 17 days, when nobody knew that they were alive yet. and each of them has assumed a tax, all of that has been very integral to their survival because establishing these routines and these shifts, these work shifts, has been very important, according to the psychologists and the doctors that we speak with. it helps keep them feeling like they are doing something important and being very involved in their rescues, but it also speaks to the fact that each of them really wanted with something to do in those 70 days. i mean, you can imagine, otherwise, it would be a relatively huge degree of cabin fever going to on down there. so, they really all took on responsibilities. miner number 21, who we saw just a short while ago, yonny barrios, known as as the doctor of the group. he really is a trained emt and he is the one communicating with the doctors above ground, taking all of the vital signs. he was giving them the medications on a daily basis, the antibiotics that they needed and making sure that they knew day in and day out how these miners were doing and each of them had a specific task and that really was key to all of their survival. and now, i should tell you dylan, this is moving so quickly now because as they have gotten better at this process, as they know with relative confidence that at this point it appears, knock on wood when i say this nothing can go wrong, but they are now shortening that time gap between each rescue mission. it seem it is taking about 35 to 45 minutes. so, we are expecting around midnight tonight, this whole operation could be done and over with, which you can imagine, a remarkable conclusion as people wake up tomorrow morning. dylan? >> natalie, thank you so much. and again, compliments of the highest order to you and kerry for just with extraordinary reporting on an extraordinary story. >> thank you. >> thank you. samuel avalos, the latest to emerge from the mine. 43 years old, father of three, have been five months on the job. we now awaiawait carlos buguenoo cob out before the top of the next hour. more details emerging about the growing foreclosure brought in this country and the potentially massive crime that this foreclosure fraud could be covering up inside of our federal government. we talk next to ohio's attorney general, one of the state officials leading the charge to investigate lenders, their practices and their motives. also, losing the left. can president obama win back progressives angry with his actions to on issues ranging from gay rights to the war in afghanistan to health care reform? and of course, more updates from san jose. we are back here on msnbc, right after this. yellowbook has always been good for business. but these days you need more than the book. you need website development, 1-on-1 marketing advice, search-engine marketing, and direct mail. yellowbook's got all of that. yellowbook360's got a whole spectrum of tools. tools that are going to spark some real connections. visit yellowbook360.com and go beyond yellow. but the financial landscape is still full of uncertainty. in times like these, you need an experienced partner to look out for you. heads up! and after 300 years we have gotten pretty good at that. [ male announcer ] ever have morning pain slow you down? introducing bayer am, an extra strength pain reliever with alertness aid to fight fatigue. so get up and get goin'! with new bayer am. the morning pain reliever. welcome back. from the drama gripping the entire planet with miner mania, to news at home. we are breaking down at other big story today, states are starting to step up where the federal government has refused to t in fact, maybe in the way. all 50 attorneys general announcing a joint investigation into the massive foreclosure fraud that is emerging in america's housing market. the main question these ags want answers to, whether mortgage companies cut corners when preparing foreclosure papers and whether they lied about it later, which then begs the larger question, is the desire to create a fraudulent foreclosure a crime intended to cover up a much larger crime that is the toxic debt that was sold to our government and pension funds by these very same banks that they do not want revealed through the foreclosure process? all of this marking an important first step to finding out how much of the $1.6 trillion that was stuck in the gut of us, the taxpayer, at fanny, federal drirg, and the federal reserve were illegal to again with and never should have been purchased by the government. here breaking it down for us, one of the attorneys general leading this investigation, ohio's ag, richard cord ray, who last week became the first to actually sue a lender for improper foreclosures. what is the next step in pulling you the string of what is a very complicated series of transactions? >> we have every state attorney general stepping up in a bipartisan basis to announce an investigation of this problem. it reflects the seriousness with which we regard this and the lenders and financial institutions need to take it seriously as well. this suspect just a matter of sloppy paperwork. this is taking people's property based on the court processes we have established in this country and in fact, appear to have been filing fraudulent evidence in numerous case and want to get to the bottom of it. >> you have heard my speculation what might be the incentive for them to perpetrate fraudulent foreclosures for not wanting to reveal the fact that those loans themself were either illegally sold to fannie and freddie and rated aaa and sold to pension funds when they were you the letterly toxic what is the motivation from the banking sector to want to bypass the natural court proceedings that would force a mortgage holder to prove they owned the property in order to foreclose on it? >> i don't want to jump the gun on who has done what. that is the purpose of an investigation but it does seem that several institutions have acknowledged, gmac, bank of america, jpmorgan chase, that they did, in fact, file fraudulent affidavits in many cases. they almost certainly did it to cut their costs and to make it cheaper, but the bottom line we have processes in the country when you can go to court and take someone's property away and these financial institutions have to play by the same rules and everyone else and have to be held to account in the same way. if they haven't take than seriously up to now, i assume with 50 state attorneys general now joining together to try to work with them to get through this and get it resolved, they will take it seriously now. at the core of, this as you well know, is the basic structure set up by -- in this country over the past few decades of how we create home loans for americans if you people don't know this, you are quickly learning, the bank doesn't hold the mortgage, the bank create the mortgage and wall street uses a blender. i call it the mortgage sport think. i have an explainer for folks who don't understand it, there is your wall street mortgage smoo smoothiemaker, take all the home loans and put it into the mortgage smoothiemaker. once the blend of the mortgages have been made earthquake the mortgages are then sold toer either the government and fannie and freddie or into your retirement in these pension funds. you have to understand that both the government and the pension funds theoretically have standards that they legally require loans to meet before the government or the pension can buy them. these foreclosures runt risk of revealing how many of these loans did not comply to the standards required to be sold to the government and the retirement. i ask you, richard, how far do you think the 50 states -- state attorneys general are prepared to take this? in other words, are they prepared to go right up to the very end of this which goes to the state and pending funs that mortgage machine? >> i think first of all, everybody has agreed that defrauding a court is a serious matter it would be serious in an individual case it is more serious if it is done in a mass of cases. they have to clean that process up. and it behooves the financial institutions to take this seriously to work with us and to share information quickly. we will get it eventually and let's see how far this goes and see what needs to be done. but i will tell that you we do have -- be in ohio, we have cases on behalf of our pension systems against fannie may, against freddie macfor the toxic assets and the funny accounting that was done, things that defraud our pensioners and we will continue to pursue recovery there. but this is a separate problem that's now emerged, again that all 50 attorneys general have joined together, shows we take it seriously and we need them to work with us to try to get through this, but courts are not going to take kindly to false and fraudulent evidence filed in cases there will be sanctions and there will be consequences. and with all of that exposure it would behoove the institutions to sit down and think about working out mortgage loan modifications with the borrowers, see if they can settle a number of these cases so that they don't have to go to judgment or perhaps force a court to enter sanctions against them. >> well, mr. cordray it is a priv len to have the opportunity to speak with you. i compliment you on the work that you have begun and certainly know that you have our support and encouragement as he continue to pursue this investigation, one that we have been with calling for for some time here and are grateful to see your efforts in that regard. >> thank you. >> all right. richard cord ray ohio attorney general, attempting to get the american people the investigation they deserve, considering the amount of money that has been put at stake and how this goes directly to the basic issue of property rights in this country. up next, the presidential candidate compared to man in the oval office. where was he on property rights, let alone health care, the war? 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[ male announcer ] don't pay miles upcharges. don't play games. get the flight you want with the venture card at capitalone.com. whoo-hoo! now this is a vacation. what's in your wallet? try zegerid otc. it's the first 24-hour treatment with two active ingredients: prescription-strength medicine plus a protective ingredient so it's effectively absorbed. for 24-hour relief, try dual-ingredient zegerid otc. investors are demanding more for their money. good. this time, i'm watching fees like a hawk. i hate hidden fees. why should i have to pay for something that i shouldn't have to pay for? td ameritrade's pricing is clear and it's straightforward... it's spelled out upfront. no hidden fees... no bait and switch. no gotchas. and there's one flat rate for online equity trades... for big accounts... or small ones. that's the way it ought to be. call, click, or come in to td ameritrade. welcome back. time for new reason -- or with a new reason for backlash for the president's progressive base. as we reported tuesday, a federal judge has blocked the controversial don't ask, don't tell poll circumstance the one banning gays from openly serving their country but given that the president has repeatedly said congress, not the courts, should have the final say, it will come as no surprise if the justice department appealed that ruling. they have already appealed another ruling that would bring gays one step closer to marriages recognized by the federal government. the decision would have deemed a national ban on gay marriages unconstitutional and yet, it was objected to by this president. news like this has many americans who voted for change scratching their heads two years later. did barack obama come to washington to fight the machine and instead get sucked in by it or just bamboozle the american people into thinking he was a changed candidate who was ultimately there to condition the control of the big six industries and special interests that control so much of the political contributions in this country? i don't know. joining us now is the nation's ari berman who has been asking this question and many more. he is author of "hurting donkeys, the fight to rebuild the democratic party and reshape american politics." ari, what is your answer to the question of obama the candidate and obama the president? >> hey, dylan, well, thanks for having me. i think if you look at the obama campaign, what was so interesting, there was incredible grassroots mobilization for obama and i think obama was expected to be this guy, as you said, come to washington and really shake up a corrupt, broken system and i think instead what happened is he relied on a very conventional top-down insider white house and the whole spirit of grassroots activism part of his campaign hasn't really translated to washington, so i think people are now asking themselves what happened, how can obama turn it around and how can he become that change agent that he said he was going to be during the campaign? >> it seems to me when you look at the level of disapproval for the current nature of this system that the political opportunities for someone with the audacity to make the play, a la teddy roosevelt or presidents in our country's history would be easily supported and accumulate all sort of momentum for very basic transparency, very basic money and politics issues as opposed to perpetrating legislation that clearly caters to special interests as financial regulation in the health care bills did. >> i think the interesting thing, as you say, obama's message of change is still very powerful and in some ways, the tea party's half co-opted it, as one of obama's top pollsters told me when writing a become, democrats don't own the market on change. they have to go out and fight for it and i think lay out a bold policy that will get us out of the mess we are in and rally the american people around it and then really rally the democratic base around it. i think that's what's been missing, the base has been demobilizeden stead of mobilized at the very moment the right is mobilizing, it has created this situation like asymmetric warfare, the is right out on the streets and the left suddenly isn't and that was not the model that i think people expected obama to carry out when he got elected president. >> the irony of the he tea party is so men of the changes that progressives would argue they would like to see from this president are frequently changes that would resonate politically very well with the disenfranchised teaers from bank reform to breaking up the health insurance monopoly to the basic issue of property rights, we are now seeing breached by the federal government and what they are calling, you know earthquake the fraud closure proceedings. i want to read an excerpt from your book that goes to how you deal with this sort of a thing and get your thoughts on t you wrote, "the solution, don't attack your base, for for them." you go on to say "instead of disparaging the professional left as white house press secretary robert gibbs did recently, the white house should recognize that the broader progressive movement can help administration achieve its policy goals. franklin roosevelt fame muss moussely told new deal-era liberal activists in 1932 i agree with you, i want to do it now make me do t." >> yeah. >> how does that apply? >> well, i think that's what transformational presidents like fdr and ronald reagan even understood which is that you could harness these movements, they can put pressure on you and that can help you pass legislation, i think. so that is what people expected from obama, he was going to get all the supporters for him on the campaign go out and put pressure on congress to pass a sweeping agenda, on the economy, on health care. i think what the president said is, no i'm going to hand this will behind closed doors, through the congress and that has clearly not worked. so as you say, i think, you know, need to get back to basics here and lay out an agenda, you know, that's gonna attract corruption in washington, that's going to try to get people become to work and say, you know, that business as usual era in washington is really over and i think they came in wanting to do that but then they got sort of sucked in to working the system. instead of changing the system. and i think that's what you have been talking about and i think that is the crucial thing going forward that the president really needs to figure is, you know, not disparage his supporters but inspire them again. i mean, that's really what's going to go out and make them work so hard like they did during his campaign. >> at the same time, how do you overcome the sense of betrayal for folks, look at the health care debate and obvious problem in this country with health care, a monopoly employer-baseball based health care system in private everyone will acknowledge is disastrous not only for the quality of american health care but disastrous for the quality of american business, and instead of engaging what i would call low-hanging fruit, health insurance monopoly collecting your money and not providing you the health care you want they, instead, expanded the system to mandate everybody buy health care into an unreformed monopoly. it struck me, candidly, as insane. >> i think that's why a lot of progressives and a lot of americans, quite frankly, 60 to 70% wanted there to be a public insurance option because they wanted people to have a choice of health care and then be able to expand that. that is not on the table. we have a mandate. we will see if eventually that survives. the health care bill i think will be viewed as a good thing and thing to build on but clearly only the first step, as you mentioned. he has got to figure out how to expand on it to get more reform in the system like he needs to figure out how to expand on the stimulus, right to get more money pumped into the economy and try to build on some of these policies, right, as opposed to just viewing one bill as a solution much. >> no kids. "hurting donkeys shall," the book, ari berman the author, pleasure to might, congratulations on the book. thanks to talking about it with us this afternoon. still ahead here on the dr show, follow the money. ever heard of americans against food taxes? what about defeat the debt or 60 plus.org? are these people that are coalitions of grass roots constituents that are attempting to transparently advocate for a policy that they believe is good for america or are they just a bump of special interests trying to manipulate electorate to ensure a high return on our investment at our nation's expense. we note answer, let's just find out who they are. our washington insider, probably call him a wall street insider, too, jimmy williams, still to come. plus, more ongoing coverage of the chilean mine rescue drama captivatiining the world. awaiting miner 23, due out any moment you are looking at, watch live coverage again from capiapo, a 27-year-old inside that capsule, a man the communicator, if the last gentleman to come out, i rev friends the fact that everybody in that mine had a job. the previous gentleman, samuel avalos, in charge of air quality. the gentleman, car loss, coming out now his responsibility, communications and communication i'm sure he will have to offer to his family and to his friends as he emerges from that capsule. and if you look at the timing, how quickly now they are pulling these miners, now two miners out of the ground in less than a half hour. homer hickam still with us, are you -- how impressed should we be by how quickly now they are able to get these gentlemen out of the ground, homer? >> they have got it down pat now the choreography is perfect. they do a quick inspection of the capsule. i noticed that the last time. and, you know, they are not just throwing that tube right back down the hole. they are looking at it and they are looking at that time on both ends. but this is just great. it is wonderful. great sequential thinking and management of the team on the topside. >> if you were to look at how much -- can this happen anymore quickly than it currently is? are they still attempting, you think, each time to do each retrieval faster than the one before? >> oh, i hope not. you certainly don't want to have that kind of mindset. that is called launch fever, in nasa speak, where you say let's go everything is perfect and you don't do the final check. so i hope -- they got it down to 30 to 40 minutes and i think that is just about right. >> discuss, if you works the days after, after the euphoria, after the reconnect iing what i the emotional fallout you are able to observe and people who have had an experience that all of us would live in absolute terror of. >> well, you know, write grew up, when there was a mine accident and the miners came out they just went home and in some cases, got up the next morning and went to work. they didn't have all this media pressure on them. what i really am afraid for these guys is that what happens when all the applause stops and all the cheering stops? and it will stop. they have got to be prepared for that. one day, everything is going to go back to normal and sometimes, that's kind of hard to wrap your mind around. >> what makes that easier? >> well, these grice pretty tough, so i'm not really worried about that. but it is just a thought. there might be one or two of them that might be a little bit susceptible to fame. really want to hang on to fame and, you know, fame is just a mistress that can leave you at any moment. so, i hope that they -- they just kind of remember who they are and they are really important folks. they are miners. and we need the stuff that they are going down there and bringing back to the world. >> how important is it that the miners who spent all of this time together and built this community at 2,000 feet depth in the earth sustained that community over the months and years to come? >> well, i think that, you know, the rocket boys that i grew up with in west virginia, we are still good buddies. it is just -- we just have a natural bond, if you grow up in a mining community. and i think that they will. i mean, there is a all right of them. there are 33 and certainly, they will spread, you know exto the four wimbledons, in some cases, but think always, all miners and mining families have a sense of community. not only the community that you happen to be in, but just across the world. you know, there's many, many chinese coal miners killed every year and the miners in the united states are aware of that and we say our prayers for them. >> homer, thank you so much for your insights this afternoon, as we now watch miner number 23, carlos bugueno, 27 years old, a carrier pigeon handler who helped oversee the sending and receiving of packages to the mine during his shift. we now await minor number 24, jose henriquez, 54 years old. this next gentleman, the preacher, an evangelical preacher, has, in fact, been the miners' pastor, been in the mine 33 years much the pastor, the preacher, will be the next to emerck from that mine. we take a momentary break here, we await our visit with our man on k street, washington, d.c. insider and a man who can tell us who is really paying for all of those manipulative, secret tv ads, jimmy williams, right after this. ♪ [ male announcer ] ever have morning pain slow you down? introducing bayer am, an extra strength pain reliever with alertness aid to fight fatigue. so get up and get goin'! with new bayer am. the morning pain reliever. needless to say, it is not transparent. $50 million being funneled by god knows who to tighten house races where dems currently have more cash. it has been dubbed the house surge strategy. one thing when you know where the money is coming from, and who is behind it and some remotely honest policy debate but frequently, as we know, not quite so easy. take a look. >> washington is spending and spending. we are $13 trillion in debt. almost the size of the nation's economy. you don't have to be an economist to see how this is unsustainable and how it is not creating jobs. as the old saying goes, if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging. visit bankrupting america.org. >> of course, i'm against bankrupting america. i suspect you are, too. and that's a pretty good ad. but who exactly are the folks behind this bankrupting america.org and what does that paid for by public notice caption at the bottom actually mean? was that taxpayer dollars trying to prevent the bankrupting of america? joining us now is a man who knows the answers to some of those questions, registered lobbyist and our washington insider, jimmy will withance. jimmy, i'm pretty excited that we have got public money now trying to end the bankrupting of america. should i be as excited as i am? >> well, it is like our friend larry o'donnell says, you are welcome to your own opinions but you're not welcome to your own facts it is not public money it is private money t is individual money t is corporate money. it could be labor money. it could be anybody's money. the problem is, we don't know who it is. why? because public notice is a tax-exempt organization that is allowed to hide its donors. that's why. >> i understand public notice is headed by a woman named gretchen hamill who worked at a j.c. watts office and more importantly deputy assistant u.s. trade representative under the bush administration. wasn't the bush administration the one that pulled off the giant multiunfunded medicare part d, perpetrated all sorts of tax loopholes and outsourcing encouragement and wasn't it the bush administration that facile dated the giant bank bailout with no strings attached whatsoever that have left trillions of dollars in toxic debt at the federal reserve? is that the same administration, same people? >> here's what i know. what i know is george bush jr. was president of the united states for eight years there are, annually, 13 appropriations bills that pass the united states congress. they don't usually pass alone, have to be passed as one bill. the bottom line, 13 bills that fund the entire federal government. and eight years that president bush was in the white house, he didn't veto a single, not one, 13 times eight is, i think if i have done the math in my head correctly, 108 -- be 104 appropriations bills. he didn't veto a single one of those bills. every single one of those bills in the six years of the eight years that george bush was president, the republicans controlled congress. and every one of those bills increased federal spending, increased, not decreased. where were the ads then? where was the ad -- why wasn't with the ad of a dude in a suit digging a big hole in the middle of some field somewhere not being run six years ago? that's why i'm so outrages and why i think the american people are outraged. why wasn't that ad running then? i don't know who gretchen hamill is. she is probably lovely person. if she worked for president bush, that doesn't make her evil what it does mean if you are going to be head of a group that says stop the deficit spending, tell me why it is that you were in the administration that increased deficit spending by truck loads. they inherited a $240 billion surplus from president bill clinton. a surplus. when president bush left office, he left barack obama a $1.3 trillion deficit. someone tell me what happened, 'cause i don't understand. >> is it possible, jimmy, that the republicans are only interested in bankrupting america if they are doing it for the benefit of their special interests, but if somebody else has the audacity to bankrupt america for special interests who don't fund republicans, that that can't be tolerated? in order, you can only bankrupt this country if the money is going to your friends? >> well, look this is politics and no one ever said it was a clean game and i don't expect it to be a clean game. i would with like for it to be an open, honest and transparent game. i think if we did that the american people would probably sit back and go okay, fine, i'm okay with the congress and the president. but that is the problem, is that they don't think it is completely open and completely transparent and completely honest and we just don't know. i'm not going to go into the motivation, the motives of the character of republicans that, you know, used to run this country and don't run it now but run ads, but i just don't know. i can't go to what their motivations r. >> this is one of my favorites, only -- rachel maddow did a great job of the oil companies funding an oil campaign in california for efficiency, this, i would argue, gives it a run for its money. this, americans against food taxes. take a look. >> feeding a family is difficult enough in today's economy. now, some politicians want the government telling me how i should do t they want to put new taxes on a lot of groceries i buy like soft drink, juice drink, sports drinks, even flavored waters, trying to control what we eat and drink with taxes. give me a break. i can decide what to buy without government help. the government is just getting too involved in our personal lives. >> so again that rhetoric always incredibly powerful. brings out my inner libertarian, i want to get rid of that damn government once and for all, all worked up, jimmy with that housewife and thinking to myself, you know, she is right, we got to get them out of here. happening on who is paying this lovely housewife to take care of business? well, none other than the biggest sugar and fat dealers in america, 7-11, american beverage association, coca-cola, pepsico, dr. pepper, snapple, mcdonald's. should we basically just eliminate the government from all food and go become to the days in the 1800s, you could use lead for canned food because it was cheaper, even if it killed you? >> three points, first kudos for posting on their website who their funders r got to give it to them. by the way, i love dr. pepper, i eat at burger king from time to time, as evidenced by my body. i got no problem with that what i have a problem with is first, that lady is a fabulous actor. the second problem is that okay, you want government out of your grocery stores and out of your grocery cart, fine, don't worry about what's in your baby food jar. don't worry about the amount of rat pooh allowed to be in your cereal, which by the way you can the government and fda, the fda is big, bad, terrible, evil wolf government, the fda decides what can and can't go into a becomes of food in your grocery store. >> get them out of here. >> get rid of the fda so that your kid can eat lead or eat whatever you want. by the way, maybe food will be cheaper then and may kill us more quickly, our health care costs will go down. i don't know. maybe that is a stretch. i'm thinking outside the box. >> one other question occurs to me when looking at the sponsors, how much government support through either tax loopholes, farm subsidies or other mechanisms are given to people who make money selling sugar and fat, ranging from the corn lobby to mothers that business? how much of a perk do these businesses get to sell sugar to our people? >> listen, i will defend corporate america from this perspective, which is they get the same amount that the europeans give their farmers and frankly, you know, there are trade cases all over the wto and international trade on this issue. i worked for dick dirbin from illinois, the corn belt, we advocated, and rightly so for subsidies for corn farmers for both ethenol and everything that you could use it for, all the research and r&d that went into ethenol, but the bottom line is i don't have a problem with the subsidies for these folks. my question becomes at the end of the day, is this good for america and if it's not, then let's don't do it. if it is, then fine. but let's be honest and transparent. listen, ied a vo kit on my client's behalf every day in that building right behind me. that is my job. i'm open and honest about t every cup of coffee i drink i have to file, every cab i take, every meal i take, every check i write and if i have a corn client, whomever, i'm gonna be honest about it. why can't they? >> i agree with you. listen, the -- i think the pot is coming to a boil, mr. williams and hopefully see some legislative action at the least on the issue of transparency, if not process, in no small part due to your efforts and willingness to come out and emkate the rest of us. thank you, jimmy, good afternoon. jimmy williams, our washington with insider, literally, spends his days doing what he justed and now a portion of his week sharing some of that with us. we are lucky for t. up next here, the steel cage wrestling match up in connecticut and another notable set of nasty fights in the midterm elections. well, the american people are desperate for poll at this si and process reforms, are politicians desperate to tear each other apart so that they can get a job where they may not do anything that any of us want? we are back to makes it up after this. we know why we're here. that any of us want? we are back to makes it up after this. ♪ to find cleaner, more efficient ways to power flight. ♪ and harness our technology for new energy solutions. 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[ male announcer ] visit ameriprise.com and put a confident retirement more within reach. but my allergies put me in a fog. so now, i'm claritin clear! claritin works great on all my allergies like dust, mold, pollen, or pets without making me drowsy, cause i want to be alert around this big guy. live claritin clear. indoors and out. all right. welcome back. time to mix it up on a couple of the top political races in this vicious midterm election. the race to the bottom continues, in many cases. the steel cage wrestling up in connecticut. one example we are talking about senate race pitting pro-wrestling honcho linda mcmahon and dick blumenthal, state attorney general. the swift-vote sensibility, blumenthal incorrectly saying he served in vietnam. take a look. >> dick blumenthal said he served in vietnam. >> he said it again and again. >> it wasn't true. >> dick blumenthal never went to vietnam. >> he said he misspoke. >> the candidate sweared off in their final debate last night. it was so contentious that moderate hearse to repeatedly step in to control the crowd's booing and hissing. here's y. >> she requires all wrestlers to sign a death clause that absolves wwe of all responsibility if wrestlers are killed in the ring are and if the company is at fault. there have been seven dead wrestlers since she started campaigning for this office and i would suggest that some other policy might be advisable. >> bring in the panel to mix it up, jane hampshire, founder of the blog fire dog lake and matt lewis, politics daily .com. pleasure to see you both. start with you, jane, here in new york. for all the desperate cries for a policy debate in this country, why is it that every time i cover politics in this election, i have crist cal ball out of virginia defending herself for being called a whore as opposed to actual debate on policy in virginia and i look at these excer excerpts, dick blumenthal is a liar and linda mcmahon is a weasel but neither one having any debate about job creation, monopoly health insurance, the war in the middle east? is there any context for an actual debate among politicians talk about things we are actually doing as a country? >> if you listen to the debate, they did talk about that stuff that suspect what gets the headlines. >> is it what gets you elected? >> i think that in that case because it has become so dominated by the fact that, you know, seven people died when linda mcmahon, the past two years since she has become a candidate and tried to absolve herself of responsibility. she can't say steroids are harmful to your health because of legal responsibilities. they can't let her near the candidate anymore. it is hard to take it into the realm of policy when she has made a mockery of her own campaign. >> matt lewis, should we be surprise ted lack of decent policy debate as well as reform in this country when we can't get politicians to debate policy or engage in poll sit easiest way to get your job is to assassinate the character of your owe pon nenn nent? >> it sure ain't lincoln/douglas, i tell that you. we have come a long watch unfortunately, seems like this has become a reality tv show more than actual elections. tonight in delaware, a former witch versus a former marxist. that is the top billing. not about idea. not about jobs. they get rewarded for. this why do they do what they do, because we reward them for. this the media and the voters, unfortunate, this is the current state of democracy. >> if you were to try to lunch an intervention, jane, on behalf of those who would want to avert the race to the bottom and resurrect a race to the top for the quality of the debate, where would you even begin? >> in 1994, when newt gingrich had the contract with america, they had been running those at the state level in order to try and test them, so, he -- they knew what their message was and they repeat it had over and over again. the look of ability of either party to really articulate a clear message or vision for the future has left candidates talking about masturbation and witchcraft and wallowing in this stuff and it has fed the worst part of massively funded advertising campaigns. >> at the end of the day, matt are we watching the death throes of political self-preservation went obvious solution is going to be some move toward reform and transparency in some way and the way this government is functioning. you talk to the young people of this country it is preposterous they can't pass, for instance, the earmark transparency bill or anything that would go to the easier revelation of political ad spending? >> i hope things improve. unfortunately, political consultants advise candidates to do exactly what these candidates in connecticut and elsewhere are doing to stay on message to not say anything controversial or interesting. i still believe will is a place for real debate and real ideas. i bet if you a candidate came out and had actual ideas and a real vision, the public might just surprise us all. unfortunately, the days of having robert kennedy quote escalus, those days are gone, maybe they will come back. >> linda mcmahon, escalus, i'll so there. >> i predict this is the -- these are the death throes, witchcraft, masturbation, pro-wrestling, we can only hope that this is the