Transcripts For MSNBC The Cycle 20121218

There on just when that is going to happen. Law enforcement officers, Law Enforcement officials have told us they have seized a fair amount of evidence in this case. Among that evidence, computer hard drives, some computers, as well. Theyre concerned that the evidence may be too badly damaged to be able to green any sort of useful information from it but they continue to try to do that. They have discovered that he was, the shooter, 20yearold adam lanza, he was apparently based on the evidence an avid gamer. They have also been looking at various social networking sites and does not appear as if he had a large social footprint, as well. Theres no evidence right now that he was under medical treatment for any sort of psychiatric disability. They have not found any sort of medicine but theyre using search warrants to try and determine whether he was at any point receiving any sort of medicine, taking any sort of medication for that and thats the latest on the investigation and whats happening right now here in newtown, as well. Okay. Craig melvin, thank you. Lets bring in harvard professor, David Hemmingway who says we should Treat Mental Health as a crisis. You wrote the gun control debate often makes it look like there are only two options. Take away peoples guns or not. This is more like a harmreduction strategy. Recognize that there are a lot of guns out there and that reasonable gun policies can minimize the harm that comes from them. What do you mean by that and how exactly would it work . So, our big effort is to try to do prevention and prevent before the event happens. And so, what that means, the analogy we use is Motor Vehicles where you weighted in the old days to say heres an accident. It must be somebody did something wrong and mostly they did. And really wasnt until we began looking at the cars, make the car safer, make the road safer, the environment safer, lets make the ems system better that what were trying to do is create a system hard to behave inappropriately and you do nothing bad happens so what we found in Motor Vehicles is that 50 years later, drivers are no better but we have been able to reduce fatalities per mile driven by over 90 so theres lots of things which that the manufacturers can do, the dealers can do, the government can do in terms of policy but also things which individuals can do and which gun owners can do. I think thats a really good start. You know, any time the gun control argument comes up, its important i think that we look at some results of studies and some of the facts and the stats throughout and ill just go through a few of them. Gun ownership increases, gun crime decreases. Latest study out of virginia finding from 2006 to 2011, gun purchases increased 73 in gunrelated crime decreased 24 . Fbi studies stated that the right to carry states have 30 lower homicide rates. Doj study of convicted felons found 40 were deterred because they knew the victim was armed. How do we interpret the facts Going Forward and have that debate on gun control . Yeah. Well, most of the studies really show the opposite which is where theres more guns theres more death and not just looking at a one state. Surveys of criminals is that over half of them say one of the reasons they carry a gun is because they believe they their victim might be armed an enso we dont have to more guns. What the evidence really shows and what is illustrated from the case, horrific case, a gun in the home makes it much more likely a woman in the home will die of a homicide and happened here. Much more likely of a suicide and what this was, really, a suicide. And it also makes much more likely that a gun from the home probably stolen will be used in the community in the criminal way. So, the evidence if you look at the United States, we have by far the most guns, the most permissive gun control laws compared to any other developed country and we are dying like crazy. 5 to 14yearolds are compared to the other 5 to 14yearolds in the rest of the developed world are 13 times more likely to be murdered with a gun. Theres no really difference in nongun murders. Theyre eight times more likely to commit suicide with a gun. Theyre ten times more likely to unintentionally kill themselves with a gun. They have a huge gun problem and not solved by arming more people. David, i take your point. I think the concern i would sort of raise is if you look at the policy prescriptions on the table or that we have talked about putting on the table whether in direct response to connecticut or more in general about gun control, we are talking about assault weapons ban, the gun show loophole, these sorts of things. The experience we had in this country for ten years under the assault weapons ban from 1994 to 2004, there was i would say at best inconclusive evidence of whether it did anything. We have a counter example, though, of australia which maybe doesnt get much attention but fascinating because australia had an assaults weapon ban in response to a mass shooting and investing like 500 million in gun buyback to get like hundreds of thousands of assault weapons out of circulation. Something that we did not do in this country. We left millions of assault weapons out there, millions of highcapacity magazines throughout and that number proliferated since 2004 and seems to me the policy prescription that might have an effect goes way beyond anything thats really in public discussion right now. Well, thats exactly right. What happened in australia was that they had had Something Like 13 gun massacres in the 18 years before the ban and 14 years since they have had zero gun massacres and tightened up licensing and registration. The firearms homicide rate fell over 40 in the 2year period to buy up the guns. And their firearm suicide rate fell about the same amount but what i would say in terms of political policy, the one thing to make the most difference in the United States is not taking away anybodys guns but a universal background check. I cant understand why a conservative leader cant stand up and say enough is enough, why are we letting criminals buy firearms without any background check . And i would like to see any legislator go to a second grade classroom and explain to second graders why they allow criminals to buy a gun without a background check but i think theres many, many more things that have nothing to do with policy. There, again, are things which i would like to see president obama do and one of the things is to make sure we get the data and make sure we highlight the data. Right now, the federal government makes it hard to get really good data. We have a National Violence death reporting system in 18 states. We really dont know what percent of households have guns. Gallop poll says its going up, 50 . Out of chicago say its going down, 33 . We have a good survey out of the federal government, Behavioral Risk factor survey. We added gun questions in 2004 and so we knew in 2004 how many guns were in each state and now stopped having that question. We can add that question. I want to see president obama do things like have a National Commission about guns. I want to see hearings about guns and the Surgeon General write about guns and suicide. Now i think the evidence is overwhelming that a gun in the household will prevent suicide. I want to see other people do things, the foundations in this world. We have over 65,000 foundations, large foundations and only 2 or 3 of them provide any money at all looking at one one thing i think criminals acquiring guns illegally which is part of the problem and to that point you talk about guns as an Infectious Disease in america. We have 300 million guns in america. Almost one per citizen. Is the disease too far in to the body to really do something . We have senator feinstein talking about banning assault weapons and cant talk about retroactively banning. We can only talk about Going Forward. Are there too many guns for america to be able to go back . I dont really think so at all. We can make a big dent. I can talk about where im from which is massachusetts and we have sensible gun control laws and its very hard for criminals in massachusetts to get guns from massachusetts and so what they have to do is somebody brings guns in to them from New Hampshire and vermont and then South Carolina up the iron pipeline. We would do very well in massachusetts if we had a one gun per month law nationally to make it so its not profitable to bring guns in to the inner city gangs. I think theres lots of things to do. And i just want to mention one thing which gun owners can do. We are trying to push this notion of the 11th commandment of gun safety and what that would say is similar to friends dont let friends drive drunk. We know that when people are going through a bad patch, the last thing they want should have available to them is a firearm because firearms really are a risk factor for dying in a suicide. If youre a good friend and somebodys wife left them, whatever it is, take it upon yourself to say, you know, get the gun away from the house for a few months until things settle down and you are feeling better. If they had friends of this poor woman now dead, her son was clearly going through a bad patch and if they had said lets get the guns out of the house for a few months while things are bad and maybe will get better, then have the guns back, we might not have had the suicide and the horrific shooting. Professor, to that point, you know, it strikes me that overall we have seen a decline in gun ownership. We have also seen a decline in the rate of overall violence crime. Meanwhile, since 2007 in particular, we have had a spike in Mass Shootings so do these two problems, you know, overall Violent Crime and the specific problem of Mass Shootings like the horrific one we just experien experienced, do they require two different sets of policy proposals . I dont think so. One of the big things is making guns easily available to criminals and to people who have clearly Mental Health problems is a huge, huge problem and theres lots of you know, small policies that we can do to make a difference in both areas and we should attack both areas at the same time. It is interesting that the same day that the mass shooting occurred in the United States, a similar attack occurred in china. No one killed because the prep traitor could only find a knife to attack with. Okay. Professor David Hemmingway, thank you for joining. Later, good news. One of msnbcs own safe and sound after a difficult ordeal in syria. Plus, there are fiscal cliff developments to tell you about. First, our special coverage of the sandy hook tragedy continues. Next, the second Big Conversation out of this. Our culture of violence. The weather outside is frightful but the fire is so delightful nothing melts away the cold like a hot, delicious bowl of chicken noodle soup from campbells. Let it snow, let it snow we create easy to use, powerful Trading Tools for all. Look at these streaming charts theyre totally customizable and they let you visualize what might happen next. Thats genius strategies, chains, positions. We put em all on one screen could we make placing a trade any easier . Mmmm. Could we . Open an account today and get a free 13month e ibd™ subscription when you call 18882800157 now. Optionsxpress by charles schwab. Is bigger than we think. Sometimelike the flu. Fer from with aches, fever and chills the flus a really big deal. So why treat it like its a little cold . Theres something that works differently than overthecounter remedies. Prescription tamiflu attacks the flu virus at its source. So dont wait. Call your doctor right away. Tamiflu is prescription medicine for treating the flu in adults and children one year and older whose flu symptoms started within the last two days. Before taking tamiflu tell your doctor if youre pregnant, nursing. Have Serious Health conditions, or take other medicines. If you develop an allergic reaction, a severe rash, or signs of unusual behavior, stop taking tamiflu and call your doctor immediately. Children and adolescents in particular may be at an increased risk of seizures, confusion or abnormal behavior. The most common side effects are mild to moderate nausea and vomiting. The flu comes on fast, so ask your doctor about tamiflu. Prescription for flu. The second issue were talking about today in the special edition of the cycle is culture of violence. Have we become completely desensitized to the violence around us . You might not even notice it anymore. Its all up in you its deeper and the oh explosiveier. Oh oh what are you guys doing . Tickle fights stop fight. When did video games become so violent and scary . You see the images on tv all the time. From video games to movies, tv shows, music, even when we as parents try to shield our kids from images, theyre exposed to violence on a regular basis a. Study of American Psychological Association Found before the age of 18 the average child witnesses over 200,000 violent episodes on tv. So should we be surprised when the kids act out what they see . Here to provide insight is dr. Stanton saminou. Doctor, how are you . Good afternoon. Im fine, thank you. So, is someone whens exposed to violence in this way that we are routinely exposed to violence of video games and television more likely to commit violence and what factors do you think determine a propensity to commit violence . Well, i dont think that watching violence turns a responsible person in to a violent individual. What is critical is not whats on the screen or whats in the video game but what is in the mind of the viewer or the video game player. This casting about for circumstances outside the individual allegedly propel him to become something he wasnt just doesnt even make common sense. It doesnt square with reality. So, lets look at a graph that i found on healys great blog showing america at the top there. Far more violent. This is assault deaths per 100,000 people. N the nation. Not necessarily just gun deaths but all sorts of violent deaths and you see through the decades there america far, far above the other nations and trending downward but were still an outlier. America is far more violent than most of the other large nations. All the other large nations of the world. Why is that . Im not a soesologist. I deal with offenders. I have spent 42 years interviewing offenders of practically every demographic background and quite frankly, again, it is true that for people who commit acts of violence, theyre drawn to violence, theyre fascinated by violence. But to say that watching vie lense made them that way is a complete and total stretch. Yeah, dr. Samenow, i have to agree. It feels like were casting blame in unguided areas and when i think about cultures of violence, i think about the 12yearold child soldier in somalia and, you know, kids who have grown up in totalitarian regimes who are exposed to actual violence on a daytoday basis and not our culture of video games and movies. Well, thats right. In countries like that, people are coopted to become soldiers. Theyre forced to become violent. In our society, nobody is forced to become violent so its a totally different culture. People make choices. And doctor, to your point, you know, i dont find either a link between video game consumption, for example, and rates of Violent Crime if we could put up the chart i was looking at earlier shows the United States as an outlier. Overall in terms of Violent Crime but no correlation of high video game consumption and gunrelated murders, this particular chart is. But so we dont see a link overall between violent content and not going to turn a normal individual in to a killer. But could it serve as a trigger for someone who was already mentally disturbed . Well, if youre talking about copycat crimes, they do occur. Meaning, lets say that millions of people watch a particular movie. Well, most of those people, the movie is just entertainment. They dont even think about it afterwards but they wouldnt dream of enacting what they see. But if you have a person who already is fascinated by violence, and who cant get enough of it, yes, there are copycat crimes but for every person who enacts that which he sees in the movies or on television, there are millions, probably tens of millions that watch the very same show, played the very same game but for them it was just entertainment. Yeah, doctor, i mean, i totally get that point. The vast majority of people who watch violence on television and movies wont say they do it themselves but if theres an issue of fascination of violence and this could serve as something to set them off and an inspiration for them, isnt that something we should be concerned about and try to deal with in some way or saying we have to live with that if one out of every 10 million starts to shoot places up . Well, unless you want to start imposing censorship on a pretty wide scale, i would say, yeah, i mean we dont know who will watch a program and copy what he sees. But last night i went to the movies. I saw six previews. Five of those previews contained very violent episodes. So what are we going to do . Have no more violent movies, have no more violence in television . It is not a reasonable thing to even talk about. Okay. Dr. Samenow, thank you very much. Next, a key part of this we dont often like to talk about in america. Mental health. Our special coverage of the shooting at sandy hook continues. Hi, im phil mickelson. Ive been fortunate to win on golfs biggest stages. But when joint pain and stiffness from Psoriatic Arthritis hit, even the smallest things became difficult. I finally understood what serious joint pain is like. I talked to my rheumatologist and he prescribed enbrel. Enbrel can help relieve pain, stiffness, and stop joint damage. Because enbrel, etanercept, suppresses your immune system, it may lower your ability to fight infections. Serious, sometimes fatal events including infections, tuberculosis, lymphoma, other cancers, and nervous system and Blood Disorders have occurred. Before starting enbrel, your doctor should test you for tuberculosis and discuss whether youve been to a region where certain fungal infections are common. Dont start enbrel if you have an infection like the flu. Tell your doctor if youre prone to infections, have cuts or sores, have had hepatitis b, have been treated for heart failure, or if, while on enbrel, you experience persistent fever, bruising, bleeding, or paleness. [ phil ] get back to the things that matter most. Ask your rheumatologist if enbrel is right for you. [ doctor ] enbrel, the number one biolog medicine prescribed by rheumatologists. Stop stop stop come back here humans we are beautifully imperfect creatures living in an imperfect world. Thats why Liberty Mutual insurance has your back with great ideas like our optional better car replacement. If your car is totaled, we give you the money to buy one a model year newer. Call. And ask one of our Insurance Experts about it today. Hello . we believe our customers do their best out there in the world, and we do everything we can to be there for them when they need us. [car alarm blaring] call now and also ask about our 24 7 support and service. Call. And lock in your rate for 12 months today. Liberty mutual insurance. Responsibility. Whats your policy . So we have discussed guns in the culture of violence on this program today and now we go to Mental Illness and developmental challenges. As much as we may want to pin newtown on a specific condition or problem, to make sense of the senseless there are no easy answers. There have been report that is adam lanzas mother told family members and friends her son had a form of autism and experts say those with aspergers are likely to be victims rather than violent himself. In high school, adam had a psychologist assigned to work with him but adams father said he never saw any signs of violence. Still to do something so awful, something went terribly wrong. Mental health in america is 113 billion industry and according to experts, it is still not enough to treat all of those who need help. In the guest spot today, dr. Ron steinguard, a child psychologist. I think its so important to talk about Mental Health and i think we need policies that support that conversation. We have a law on the books. In 2007 the Senate Passed the nix improvement act and decides who gets guns essentially and required states to report that those adjudicated by a court to be mentally ill or a danger to themselves or others or suicidal to this nix board. I dont know that thats sufficient. Its a good start. What else can we do in terms of policy to support a better Mental Health system . You know, i think thats interesting because the way thats framed it actually connotes that Mental Healths the only arena that you need to be careful of vetting looking for gun control and an implication thats a group to be separated for some reason that they need special care. I think the way you framed the segment was that this is something that we dont normally like to talk about. I think was the way you started this particular segment. I think, unfortunately, this is the only time that we talk about this for the most part. And this is a group of individuals who are exposed to significant stigma in terms of their ability to access care let alone institutional barriers so theres a lot of work to be done across the board in terms of not only allowing people to access this type of care without the stigma attached to it, but also, promoting research that helps us to understand these disorders better and to think about creating more effective treatments for this group of individuals. Doctor, you talk about the stigma that exists around Mental Illness. If your child had cancer, the world would rush in and hug you and your child. Absolutely. You have Mental Illness, everybodys backing away and i think almost human nature to think that is weird and not way that we are able to help these families. How much does the stigma around Mental Illness make it difficult for people to get the treatment and support that they need . I actually think theres component pieces. Stigma is an important part of it. If i had a child with cancer, i could talk to my friends, i could say im dealing with this. I could get semp think, empathy for this. If my child is seeking treatment for depression or anxiety disorder or adhd, theyre controversial disorders at time and parents are unlikely to seek help and talk about it openly with their pediatricians or friends or the schools. I think its very clear in this country we deal with disorders that occur above the neck, disorders of psychiatry behavior in a much different way and approach for disorders affecting other parts of the body and that needs to change. Stigma is a significant component to this but there are other component pieces that get in the way of people being able to adequately and quickly access care. There are institutional barrier that is get in the way. There are probables in the fact that we really do not fund enough research to understand these disorders. Create effective interventions for these problems, as well. That triad is what creates a major problem in terms of people getting access to quality and effective care. The Health Care Reform act is largely my understanding is in part built upon a Delivery System that looks towards quality and efficacy of care. We are worefully behind this in Mental Health and needs to be development for these wellstudied, effective interventions if doctor . If Mental Health is a piece of this reform Going Forward. Lets talk about one potential specific reform looking back across history of how we have handled people with Mental Illness and initially did nothing and then a Reform Movement in the late 19th century to create a vast system of state and mental hospitals and then a backlash against that and now some are arguing we have gone too far in terms of deinstitutionalizing, that even people crying out for help for their loved ones and know that theyre a danger to themselves and to others cant get them the longterm care treatment that they need. And one stat that blew my mind is in 1955 we had 1 public psychiatric bed for every 300 americans now 1 for every 7,000 americans. Do we need more longterm Mental Health institutions . You know, ive been through ive been around far long time and lived through cycles where access to care has become a critical issue for a variety of reasons. I dont think that necessarily a building more hospital beds is the answer. And what concerns me about that is that it lends itself also to this out of sight, out of mind mentally and i think helps to promote stigma, as well. We need to think about what are effective interventions for the types of problems that people are dealing with . And some people may need hospital level care but certainly people need other types of service that is are closer to their homes and closer to the communities where they live. And its just that we dont do enough to understand or to promote studies for a lot of these things. Okay, doctor, thank you very much. Youre welcome. Last three conversations have given us a lot to think about. Well talk it all over straight ahead. Heres images of newtown as students go back to school today. Smoothes, lifts, defies . Red jars are all the same right . Wrong you need three uses of a 15 cream to equal the moisturizing power of one use of regenerist microsculpting cream. Seems not all red jars are created equal. Olay regenerist. We continue tolerate this anymore. These tragedies must end. And to hend them, we must change. So we have just spent about half an hour having serious conversations about the three big topic that is are coming out of this shooting. The three areas where as the president said were not doing enough and we will have to change. As we brought you the news, we havent talked about this much, just ourselves over the past few days so lets take it to the table now. S. E. What are your thoughts . I will talk later about guns and Mental Health so just real quick on culture, i want to play a clip of a little movie called bowling for columbine. Video games. Television. Entertainment. Satan. Cartoons. Guns. Society. Drugs. Shock rocker Marilyn Manson. Manson. Manson. Manson has canceled the last five dates over his u. S. Tour out of respect for the those lost in littleton. But the singer says artists like himself are not the ones to blame. Though i disagree with Michael Moore on just about everything including the premise of his movie, on that point, i do agree and i think we have this conversation about the culture and his whole point in this was to say, well, if were going to blame Marilyn Manson who the shooters liked, why not blame bowling. They did that that morning, as well. Every time this happens we try to grapple with what we can do, how to make sense of it and we go to the culture and every time we just dont come up with satisfying answers so i understand the impulse but i just want to remind people that its not a new debate about violence in our culture. We have it often and usually we come up empty. Well, and there is a tendency i think for everybody to apply their pet, pet issue to what the problem is here and Mike Huckabee saying its taking god out of the schools and people want to see it through the lens but i want to say im glad that we are having what feels like a Big Conversation about important issues that have been overlooked a lot. Mental health. Gun control. Its im glad were having that debate and obviously the one thats most politically fraught is gun control argument and engenders strong feelings on both sides. I have to be honest with you, at the federal level with republicans still in control of the house, i am fairly pessimistic that something is actually going to pass in the near term. There are only 15 republicans charlie cook pointed this out who are in district that is obama won so still most republicans are going to be more concerned with playing to the base and getting through their primary an appealing to a general election, more centrist audience, but in terms of that debate i do think strategically we need to be smart and number one, we should not talk specifically about this tragedy and what would have prevented this particular tragedy because we just cant know and we got caught up after Virginia Tech saying what would have prevented that shooting and a debate on both sides and caught up in the details rather than thinking big picture, what could cause an overall societial change. I think thats where we need to focus and caution democrats and gun control advocates about is that gun control in general is not popular and the idea of taking away everyones guns, banning handguns very unpopular but the specifics are quite popular, even sometimes with gun owners, even sometimes with nra its not talking about guns far decade not brought any of them back to the democratic fold. Theyre voting at the same or even increased rates for republicans. And democrats can look at it now and say we can win without them. We can win with the sort of new coalition and introduces a basic element of a Political Party and decides its for something, if that becomes gun control, it puts it back on the national agenda, forces it in to the conversation and if that party is in position legislateively and the executive branch to act on it and democrats a couple of cycles from now and got the brady bill and the assaults weapon ban. I dont know how anyone can live in this culture were in now and say that the status quo is acceptable and thats a mass killing a week and the price of freedom in america means that thousands of people, thousands of children blown away all the time and since when does americans say, oh well, we cant do anything and fix this problem . Thats not american right there. I dont want to take away your guns in New Hampshire or your fathers guns but my father carries a handgun every day because of where his office is and afraid of getting shot every day and i want less guns so he doesnt go to work every day and fear hes going to be shot. That is critical and thats not the america that we should accept. All right. Amid the tragedy of this week, we did have a moment of relief as we all learned that nbcs chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel and his crew are all free and safe. He and his crew were kidnapped thursday morning in syria. They were released late last night and richard described the harrowing ordeal this morning and from all of us at the cycle, richard, we are so glad youre okay. We were with gunmen, rebels. They executed one of them on the spot. They took us to a series of safehouses and interrogation places. We werent physically beaten or tortured. It was a lot of psychological tour which you are. Threats of being killed. We were in the back of what you would think of as a minivan and as we were driving along the road, the kidnappers saw this checkpoint. Started a gun fight with it, two of the kidnappers were killed. We climbed out of the vehicle and the rebels took us. [ male announcer ] it started long ago. The joy of giving something everything youve got. It takes passion. And its not letting up anytime soon. If youre eligible for medicare, you might know it only covers about 80 of your part b medical expenses. The rest is up to you. Call now and find out about an aarp Medicare Supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. Like all standardized Medicare Supplement plans, they help pay some of the difference. And could save you in outofpocket medical costs. Youll be able to visit any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. Plus, there are no networks, and you never need a referral to see a specialist. So dont wait. Call now to request a free decision guide to help you understand medicare. And which aarp Medicare Supplement plan might work best for you. Theres a range to choose from, depending on your needs and your budget. And they all travel with you anywhere in the country. Best of all, youll be joining the millions who have already enrolled in the only Medicare Supplement insurance plans endorsed by aarp, an Organization Serving the needs of people 50 and over for generations. Remember, all Medicare Supplement insurance plans help cover some of what medicare doesnt pay. And could save you in outofpocket medical costs. Youll be able to choose any doctor or hospital that accepts medicare patients. And you never need referrals. So call now to request a free decision guide and learn more. After all, when youre going the distance, its nice to have the experience and commitment to go along with you. Keep dreaming. Keep doing. Go long. Youll also care about our new offer. You get access to nurses who can help with your questions. And your loved one can get exelon patch free for 30 days. If the doctor feels its right for them. It cannot change how the disease progresses. Hospitalization and rarely death have been reported in patients who wore more than one patch at a time. The most common side effects of exelon patch are nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea. The likelihood and severity of these side effects may increase as the dose increases. Patients may experience loss of appetite or weight. Patients who weigh less than 110 pounds may experience more side effects. People at risk for stomach ulcers who take certain other medicines should talk to their doctor because serious stomach problems such as bleeding may worsen. Patients may experience slow heart rate. Thirty days of exelon patch free for your loved one. Access to trained nurses for you. Call 18559991399 or visit exelonpatchoffer2. Com. Finally, some movement on the fiscal slope and no, i dont mean rolling down it. Modest signs the compromise is possible. Theres still a lot of work to be done. Team obama put forward a new proposal with 2. 5 trillion in spending cuts. Team boehner hasnt outright rejected it this time so i guess thats positive. They say the deal is still unbalanced. White house is offering to increase the cutoff of bush era tax rates to 400,000. Speaker boen hner said hes willing to let the bush cuts expire on Million Dollar earners but then boehner met this morning proposed a plan b to extend the bush rates for americans earning less than 1 million only. Both president obama and Senate Democrats say thats doa. Michael crowly the Deputy Washington Bureau chief of time magazine. Michael, lets start with this emerging compromise but i think the big piece of it sort of if youre a democrat, the big piece of this potentially is Social Security. This is at the heart of new deal and the safety net and the heart of the proud Democratic Party and obama looking at here is something called chain cpi. That basically means changing the cost of living formula for Social Security in a less generous way and cost the average beneficiaries more and more money the longer on Social Security and basically a benefit cut and a small but regressive tax increase because it would affect the income cutoffs for tax brackets. It strikes me that there could be real problems here for obama in terms of selling it to democrats in Congress Although i heard nancy pelosi today didnt seem too cool toward it at all. Where do you think this stands with democrats right now, this Social Security idea . Well, dont like it for the reasons that you say, and it is a regressive way of cutting benefits. You know, Social Security is also not the biggest budget buster. It really is medicare is the biggest longterm threat. But i think democrats hate a chain cpi adjustment less than they hate raising the retirement age for medicare which was a trial balloon we saw and provoked an angry reaction from the left. They may dislike this a little less than they dislike the talk about the retirement age for medicare. You make a good point. Theres been so much focus i think appropriately on whether the Republican Party is capable of accepting higher tax rates and whether the tea party and the junior members of the house are going to stand their ground and kind of shoot down anything boehner proposes on that front, but you have to keep in mind, obama has got to sell it to democrats as well. You cant do this without democrats. So he moves a little bit boehners way and then he has to worry about his blaflank on the left. Lets talk about that a little bit. One of the other underlying dynamics weve been talking about is the democrats have the uner hand. If nothing happens, all the tax rates go up and then theyre able to just have a bill lowering the rates for the people that they want to lower them for. I mean, its not just the cost of living adjustment that is a compromise here. You also have the president lifting the number from 250,000 to 400,000. You have him giving up on the payroll tax cut ex teng. Is this even a good deal for democrats . Should democrats accept this deal . Should they compromise right now . I think a lot of democrats are saying, hey, we just won the election. Why is the president the one who is moving . And it is striking, if you look at the polling, its extremely favorable to the president. I mean, the disapproval of how republicans are handling this situation right now is off the charts, and the support for raising taxes on wealthy americans is off the charts. There is a kind of theres like a plurality of a solution here. Its a mix of cutting spending. People want to cut spending and raising taxes, but crucially it doesnt say what the mix should be. When you ask them about specific categories of spending, they say no, dont cut defense, dont cut Social Security, dont cut medicare. Its tough to figure out what the public wants. In general obama has the upper hand. I can understand why the left might be growing increasingly frustrated. Were talking about what boehner can sell to his caucus. I do think liberals hated that medicare retirement age change. Change cpi might be more palatable. A lot of people dont completely understand what it means and it might be an easy thing to sell. Lets talk about thea mt because no one else is. This is a tax so onerous and poorly designed that congress has to patch it every year to avoid bankrupting the middle class. I really like tonys description in forbes, step one, compute your regular tax liability. Step two, compute your alternative minute tax liability. Step three, take a generous pull of scotch and curse loudly. Step four, pay the higher of step one and two. What is going to happen with the amt . The amt is really important. It might be one of the most important issues that people dont really dig into. We dont talk about it a lot in this conversation, but it does really hit home. People do get blindsided by it. They dont understand it and then it zaps them. I think its pretty much on the table and to be determined, but its depressing because washington has been talking about fixing the amt for a decade. At least. Anything they pun, thats it. Michael crowley from time, thank you for joining up. Coming up next, why s. E. Says the current consideration on gun control needs to expand. Today we touched on three of the issues connected to the newtown tragedy, guns, a culture of violence, and mental hale, but despite those good efforts to take a comprehensive look at the problem, the National Policy conversation inevitably reverts back to one issue, gun control, and that conversation is always the same. The left pushes, the right resists. That conversation isnt working. Here is why. If you truly believe that guns are the problem, then the only intellectually honest argument is to eliminate them all. Focusing only on assault weapons is a cop out. In 2010 a mere 2. 8 of homicides were committed withen assault weapon while 42. 6 were committed with a handgun and during the tenyear federal ban on assault weapons numerous Mass Shootings, including columbine, still took place. Making it harder to obtain a gun is also confusing the issue. Adam lanza stole the guns from his mother. Gun control advocates should want her guns and all guns banned. Wouldbe murderers dont respect those artificial boundaries. But aside from the constitutional impossibility of eliminating all guns, prohibition hasnt proven to be useful in eliminating much of anything. Including illicit drugs and, yes, illegal weapons. There are Mass Shootings even in countries with the strictest of gun laws and someone intent on killing a lot of people doesnt need a gun to do it. So if we know that banning certain guns wont stop gun violence, that gunfree zones dont protect the people inside them, and that eliminating all guns is impossible and infective, then what Workable Solutions are gun control advocates actually bringing to the table when they say they want to have a real conversation . A real conversation has to start with the broken Mental Health system thats failing our young people. We have to talk about teen suicide. There are 12 a day. Depression and bullying have to be discussed. We have to talk about the over medicating of our children. A lack of access to health care, and resources. Instead, we get the kneejerk call for more gun laws on the left and the kneejerk defense of guns on the right. Thats not a conversation. Thats a stalemate. We will have to change, the president told us from newtown over the weekend, and hes absolutely right