the idea that real estate in new york, a rough-and-tumble business is buyer beware, and the banks aren't so innocent. none of those are great arguments for we didn't commit fraud. they are, i would say valid arguments, the judge has to consider them for how much you should by penalized if that's a, quote, victimless crimes, or hey, they are are all adults in new york real state. >> think the hardest thing for the attorney general's office and frankly for the judge to decide is what the size of this penalty is going to be. it relies on and i want had. what would the interest rates had been had donald trump not lied about his net worth. there's almost no way to prove the answer to that. if you say, okay, he would have had 5% higher, then all of a sudden can get to an enormous number, a quarter percent higher, you get to a much