between actually occurring reality and the kind of mediated reality shows they've propagated. when the ukraine scandal, when the two crash into each other two bad things can happen. the reality dimension of the ukraine scandal is that much of it was setup just so the ukrainian president have a press conference to say what trump needed him to say so that trump could then turn around and call everything a witch hunt. >> it didn't matter whether there was any there there, as long as they had enough programming to support the conspiracy theory. >> that's right. and if you can create enough noise, i think you can also see it in the mode of diskrcourse, that kind of weird feeling. no one ever answers the question, there's no conversation, there's only attack. there's only someone walking in going i didn't come here to make friends. >> well, we're out of time but