the luxury of the thought experiment to think about how we got to this level of vaccine denial and is this kind of the ultimate going-away gift of trump and trumpism? >> brian, darkly, to give the anti-vaxx movement credit, they were flourishing long before donald trump became a candidate or became president. but his flirtation with questioning the connection between vaccines and autism certainly helped fuel their movement. and so did the explosion of disinformation on social media. and trump's refusal to brand, market, and lobby and campaign for the covid vaccines in the time he had left in office, and the fact that he got the vaccine in secret, and sort of begrudgingly since then has