effective here. but the city of kyiv, i don't think they're going to be able to take that city. they can get there, but it is the size of chicago, with 4 million people, and i don't think that they will ever be able to subjugate it, or western ukraine itself. and as american weapons start to flow in, other people start giving them assistance and they start building their own i.e.d factories, it will be a nightmare for the russians. they just are not going to be able to take and hold this place. and they are going tough to kill a lot of people. and apparently, they have made the choice that they are going to. >> there is not a single analysts who does not think this is going to be very bloody. both gentlemen are going to stay with us, we have a lot more to talk about, not just the war on the ground, but what to watch for if and when nato and other global allies are suddenly targets of cyber war fare, in an unconventional war. when the 11th hour continues.