face-saving victory horizontal that. one thing that's debatable right now is whether ukraine would give up any aspiration to join nato. it wasn't enough before this war started but maybe it would be helpful now. >> there was this furious debate, including here in the u.s., in the u.s. media, online, about prior to the war, about whether the nato expansion, whether they hud be allowed to join nato at some point in the future. it was a factor in putin's saying he doesn't accept ukraine's independence, but you seem to be suggesting that it could be a factor if resolving this, in giving putin some kind of win saying see, see, i