this hour on the "big picture," the white house counterattack on health care reform ramps up. the target, false gop claims like death panels. >> i think there's a tremendous amount of disinformation out there. >> as the war gets hotter, we'll talk live with an insurance industry whistleblower about the status quo and the rationing already in place because of corporate profit. >> an unbelievable heist. three men walk into a london jewelry store and wait until you hear what they walked out with. call it basketball diaries. an extortion plot involving a popular college coach. sex in a restaurant and alleged blackmail. later, in face-off, the backlash has begun over health care confrontations. yesterday's incident actually began when a woman snatched a poster of civil rights leader rosa parks. how are these right wing tactics sitting with independent and moderate voters. talk about a town hall brawl. the tigers and red sox had a nasty one last night and the other things we thought you should know. cleavage campaign? all that and more on msnbc. >> eye popping there to say the least. what a way to start. i'm tamron hall live in new york. hey, david. >> i'm david schus ter live in washington. the white house is trying to win the message war on health care reform. the president is going straight to the public this week to answer questions about his plan and to address some persistent false claims. here's what white house press secretary robert gibbs said about efforts to get out the obama message. >> we've always thought it more important to take disinformation that anybody may have about a proposal or something that the president is trying to do and address directly that misinformation. >> president obama will be heading to montana on friday to hold another town hall. the president will be greeted by protestors, perhaps as many as 500 people are expected at a rally outside of the airport where the president will be holding his town hall. chuck todd is chief white house correspondent on top of the white house strategy and all this. what is the view of the white house? do they feel like they're somehow being able to get their message out or fear they're being drowned out by all the chaos? >> the answer to both questions is yes. that is why you saw the president yesterday at this town hall spend as much time saying what the plan wasn't going to do and what was not in the plan as he did pushing the plan. so, i think they realized they're on two tracks. the actual debate about health care policy is not taking place at town halls. this debate is taking place still in the gang of six with max baucus, bradley, those guys in the senate with congressional democratic leaders. but that isn't what the public is see. now there's a public debate which has morphed into a part of a cult, a red versus blue culture wars. i feel like they feel they have to deal with it but in many ways might be on different tracks. an age-old debate about government and the role of government. that is probably the highest minded way of looking at this culture war debate taking place where health care is sort of the reason that it exploded was the spark, but it's not really a debate about health care. we're not debating the public option versus insurance companies. we're not really debating the amount of money. that really isn't the debate at these town halls. the debate is about role of government in either its highest minded or in some cases lowest form. >> such a great point and maybe part of the underlying part of the debate is views of president obama himself, the first african-american president. nbc's chief white house correspondent chuck todd. thanks as always. >> now, david, to the bigger picture and some of the most emotionally charged claims in this debate have been coming from the health care industry supporters. they argue any changes to the current system we have would lead to rationed care, fewer choices, and even earlier death. it's a talking point popping up at a lot of these town halls. >> it does want to kill people like myself. i'm 73. i'm one of those throw aways we've heard so much about, okay? i want you to know i'm not afraid of dying. >> but a former executive at a top health insurance industry says already rationed care and limited choices in order for the insurance companies to make bigger profits. wendell potter left the insurance industry after 20 years of a career and since become a whistle-blower of the industry. thank you for joining us. >> thank you, tamron. >> it's interesting when you hear some of these comments out there because you would think every individual who's walked in and saw an a doctor, got the care they wanted, did not leave with a bill that was baffling, and it's all been rosy for all of these years. is this because the health care industry is very powerful and very convincing and very much involved in these town halls? >> the health care industry is very much at play here behind the scenes. i've seen that for the years that i was working in the industry, one of the things that i did, i represented my companies at a lot of the trade association meetings and coalitions that the industry formed, the front groups that it formed and know that the industry has funneled a lot of money to organizations that do what you're seeing going on today. i think a lot of the people who are disrupting these meetings are completely unaware that of the ability of the health insurance industry to manipulate public opinion and turn it into what we're seeing at some of these town halls. >> what's baffling also is the fact you have people saying the government will stand in the way of you and your health care, you and your doctor when you look at the information out there, that is happening. again, you're not able to under certain plans to walk in and just get whatever you think you want. >> you're exactly right. i think what people who are there are not taking into consideration is that we do have rationing now in a couple different ways. one more than 50 million people of us don't have insurance coverage and another 25 million of us don't have adequate insurance. so rationing is there right now and even those who have fairly good insurance will very often find that a procedure that has been requested might be denied by a corporate bureaucrat who calls the shots and answerable primarily to wall street investors. >> how prevalent is it somebody gets denied coverage because an insurance coverage thinks this is going to cut into our bottom line and profit. >> it hapts more than people realize. they also take action to dump people off the insurance roles when they file claims. this has happened, the congress has uncovered in some states as many as 20,000 people being kicked out of their insurance roles because of some error they might have made or inadvertently left out information when they filled out an application and the insurance company also industry is also purging their roles of small businesses whenever an employee of a small business might get sick or injured and files some significant claims. that small business is very much in danger of being terminated if you will, by the insurance company. >> wendell, it is fascinating. and your perspective obviously is very valuable in this conversation about reform. we certainly appreciate you coming on with us. thank you. >> thank you very much. >> david, i think chuck todd hit it on the head about the town halls and a lot of people who are the laudest voices in the room. it's about health care. it's about government and we hear people bringing up the constitution and not a lot of hard-core questions playing out on tv from them about health care reform. >> that's absolutely right. i have a feeling a lot of people screaming at these town halls don't even get into the whole idea or maybe they don't comprehend the role that insurance companies as our last guest just underscored the role they play. a lot of people fear i don't want the government between me and my doctor. you already have an insurance administrator. >> or they are the recipients of medicare. we're weeding through it all and also in a story still developing right now, there's a big question, david, brace yourself. is the recession over? >> hmm. >> okay, i think that's probably the safe answer. the dow closing up 120 points. trading volume 9361. s&p up, nasdaq up as well. the federal reserve today kept interest rates steady near zero aspectsed and said it will extend a program to buy longer term government securities till october. the fed had pumped it hundreds of billions of dollars into the economy to stimulate economic activity since the recession started. on the unemployment front, rising proustd and there could be a reason for hope out there. meanwhile, "wall street journal" reports economists are nearly unanimous in their view that ben bernanke should stay on as chairman of the fed. 71% say president obama will ask him to remain on the job. and the phrase "tv think the," taking a whole new meaning in brazil. >> tamron, this story is amaze. police say the host of a brazilian crime show ordered murders to boost ratings. he is known for being the first on the scene of murders getting graphic video before police even arrive. now officials suspect the host state legislate irwallace souza commissioned at least five of the killings. police also accuse him of drug trafficking and say he had competing drug traffickers killed to boost ratings and also to get rid of rivals. michelle kosinski joins us live from miami. where is this headed? >> he hasn't been arrested or charged with anything yet although he faces charges of drug trafficking. because this guy is a state legislator, he has immunity right now and they have a special panel looking into accusations against him. he's also a former police officer and the show he's been doing for the last 20 years was supposed to fight crime and expose corruption. he's denying all of these accusations that he actually ordered these murders. he says these are trumped up accusations coming from people like drug dealers who are tired of him exposing their crimes and also political rivals. his son is actually charged with homicide in addition to drug trafficking. >> wow. >> wow. >> so i mean, obviously, this is the talk of brazil right now, right? >> it is. it's a big story there. the city is in the middle of the mam zon rain forest and isolated from other large cities in brazil. the people that live there sort of feel like their town is safer than san paolo orio. but they do have trouble with drug gangs there as in many places in south america. and especially in the suburbs, we've been down there. gangs sort of run free and this guy sort of presented himself as somebody trying to fight that and also fight corruption. now it's the talk of the nation that he's accused of not only ordering these murders but possibly using them on his show. i mean, his show was sometimes there at the scene of crimes before the police got there. they claim that they just had great sources and they were, you know, on the inside trying to fight all of this violence. but the police say otherwise. they say he was not only involved in it, but possibly behind at least five of these murders. >> unbelievable. michelle, thanks so much. we appreciate it. tamron, what a crazy story. i guess the first tip should have been when this guy's getting there before the police, you know something. >> it sounds like a "csi" whatever those shows "law & order" kind of things. my personal favorite is a strange story. we both pause and both said wow because your mind can't process, a family business. watch those ratings. anti-government militias growing faster than they have in a decade. why are militias so attractive for people right now? a federal agent says all the militia members need is a spark. >> and the latest on that man, legendary basketball coach rick pitino. his ex-lover and a $10 million extortion case. >> plus, a very embarrassing banner flying over the sky near the home of the former nba star reggie miller. but there are two sides to this story. it's a he said he said and there's a woman caught in the middle and reggie miller former nba star involved in it all. you're watching the "big picture" on msnbc. ooked meal... with yummy hamburger helper? oh! tada! fantastically tasty, huh? ummm, it's good. what would you guys like? hamburger helper. what?! one pound... one pan... one tasty meal! cash for clunkers is available at your chevy dealer, but funds are going fast. so hurry. let us recycle your older vehicle and you could qualify for an additional $3500 or $4500 cash back on a new, fuel-efficient chevy. your chevy dealer has more eligible models to choose from. more than ford, toyota or honda. now get an '09 silverado for under eighteen-three after all offers. and get it for even less if you qualify for the cash for clunkers program. go to chevy.com for details. but i did. you need to talk to your doctor about aspirin. you need to be your own advocate. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. you take care of your kids, now it's time to take care of yourself. are enjoying the new palm pre from sprint. its revolutionary web os allows multiple applications to run at the same time. - ( thunder and rain ) - millions are using the simply everything plan. - each is saving $1200 over an at&t iphone plan. - ( ca register dings ) together that's billions of dollars. enough to open a dunkin' donuts in space. from america's most dependable 3g network. bringing you the first and only wireless 4g network. get the palm pre. only from sprint. only on the now network. welcome back. turkish commandos have captured a group of pirates in the gulf of aden as part of a nato mission to combat piracy. they raided a small boat as the pirates on board were about to attack a ship. somali pirates operating in the shipping lanes between asia and europe have made millions of dollars in ran some in the past few years. another day, another sordid tale from the world of sports. rick pitino from the louisville men's basketball team told police he had sex in a restaurant six years ago with a woman now accused of trying to extort $10 million from him. according to the louisville courier journal, he gave care of sypher $3,000 for an abortion but her attorney says it was so she could buy health insurance. according to the police report, he denies her allegations that he raped her after the incident in the restaurant and another time at a separate location. here to talk about this is journalist and commentator stephen a. smith. what's the university of louisville going to do about this? they tend to care about fairly high standards for coaches and their university. >> that remains to be seen. certainly they were aware of this long before any of us were and the reality is they've got to delve deep into the situation. on the surface, you would assume that there's no way on earth they would want to lose a great coach like rick who has a stellar record as a collegiate coach, not as an nba coach because he stunk up the joint in boston. at kentucky, prove deps and louisville, he's enjoyed a tremendous level of success. if the heat continues to elevate, he's got staffers on there that work with him at kentucky, work with him at providence and usually through my experiences, covering the world of sports, the reality is, when you see a guy that has his people in place like that, you usually expect so much heat to come to the surface that you end up stepping away even if it's for a year till stuff dies down. i wouldn't be surprised at all if that's what he's anticipating at this very moment. >> stephen, even if it's true that this was an ex-torsion case, he did show awfully bad judgment to have sex with a woman in a restaurant. isn't that itself going to be a problem for him he's going to have to explain and deal with? >> that's a problem from the standpoint of recruiting. you're going to have parents of kids that are going to be highly reluctant to send their kids to a program to play for him in that regard, it might be a little bit dicey for him. as long as he continues to have a nationally ranked program, he's winning basketball games challenging for a national championship, then the reality is, a lot of these administration, a lot of these schools are not going to sit there and say you know what, he needs to be gone. certainly the university of louisville will do all the pomp and circumstance and claim that they find it reprehensible because they have to say that. but if you have to fire a coach every time they're engaged in indiscretion, a lot of people would not be coaching in sports let alone college basketball. i can assure you of that. >> is rick pitino known as a decent guy to the people who cover basketball and to his fellow coaches? >> he's known as a winner. i wouldn't say a decent guy. some people love him. some people despise him. that could be because of the situation of competition and how you got some people that are envious and jealous. remember, there's a guy that signed for $70 million to coach the celtics and made tens of millions of dollars more coaching college basketball. when you're the one who ends up getting it and others don't, sometimes that builds animosity. >> stephen, we appreciate it. tamron, what do you make of this whole thing? >> i don't know. this is absolutely a disturbing story on 5,000 levels. he has children. this woman has children. but which struck me beyond the sports angle, what is this, the third recent high profile man who the victim, if you will, if he's a victim, extortion, that these affairs end up in extortions from senator ensign, alleges there. this case, i don't know. i don't know. it's. >> there's no extortion if you're not going to the bathroom of a restaurant with a woman, not your wife. >> it's come to light. i guess my point is that they come to light because of alleged extortion. >> right. >> david, you put me on the spot. i thought we were friends. anything i say would get me fired. >> i'm with you, tamron. >> he's a jerk obviously. okay, over 1,000 people lined up outside a los angeles sports complex. david, this story will startle our audience i think because they were not there to see a game. >> that's right. they wanted to see a doctor. the los angeles forum turned into a mobile hospital, some people even camped overnight to get free health care checkups. a group of doctors called remote area medical started out providing free medical services to third world countries. now the need for health care is so dire here at home, the doctors are making stops in major u.s. cities. >> the people that are coming to these events are simply those that don't have access or cannot afford the care they need. >> i wish i was shocked. i wish that nobody was here. but we know the need is here and if anything, it's heartbreaking. that's why i like this clean energy idea. now that works for our whole family. for the kids, a better environment. for my wife, who commutes, no more gettin' jerked around on gas prices... and for me, well, it wouldn't be so bad if this breadwinner brought home a little more bread. repower america. i hope our senators are listening. come on. good girl.] mollie's never looked better. i really was amazed to see the change in her coat. people stop us when we're walking, and they'll say, "did you shine up her spots?" 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[ announcer ] it's amazing what one can do. there are a lot of things considered news in this world. >> but there are only a few stories that make us say no way! >> take a look at this amazing rescue in ireland. the irish coast guard rushed to the scene after a small plane crashed in the irish sea. the pilot took refuge on one of his plane's wings while he waited for help to arrive. a regular cscuer is was lowered helicopter to pluck the pilot right off and move that thing, i can't see. there he is. safe. this is why i am learning to swim this weekend. i'm learning to swim this weekend because that might happen to me. >> wow. very lucky pilot there. tamron, take a look at this. a bench-clearing base brawl. it erupted during last night's game between the red sox and detroit tigers. tigers pitcher struck kevin youkilis between the shoulderblades. youkilis charged the mound wrestling the pitcher to the ground. youkilis and the tigers pitcher were both tossed from the game and what a fight. >> i think that was a lame fight. i don't encourage it. but come on. if you're going to get yourself in that kind of trouble, don't just go chucking your hat. it's pretty sad though. we've got town hall brawls and baseball brawls. speaking of bad things you don't want to happen to you, retired nba star reggie miller is denying accusations he's a home wrecker. but it looks like he ticked off the wrong man. take a look at this manner flown over southern california beaches over the weekend. it says reggie miller stop pursuing married women. the man behind the banner is the son of diane van first stenburg famous for those wrap dresses. >> he's apparently upset over miller's contacts with his fiance, her name is ali kay. miller's representative says the two met at a malibu supermarket earlier this month and miller claims the two spent the entire day sending each other more than 50 text messages. miller says the girl, the woman texted him this picture and another provocative picture of herself. he also -- yeah, that one. he also says she's the one who tried to reconnect after he took her out of his contact list. she an allegedly said put me back in, i'd like to chitchat with you. >> i'm wondering if reggie miller ever played for rick pitino. maybe rick's wondering what supermarket in malibu they were talking about. >> i would have thought you thought the boyfriend was foolish because now the other guy has pictures of his girlfriend. >> the boyfriend should have ignored it. but what do you do? coming up, new concern about the rise of right wing militias. we'll talk to investigate jiv journalist ron kesler whether these groups pose any real threat. plus, a daring daylight jewel heist in the heart of london. how do these well-dressed thieves get away? video of the thieves. do we have it? no pp frz what's our favorite part of honey bunches of oats? the sparkly flakes. the honey-baked bunches! the magic's in the mix. my favorite part? eating it. honey bunches of oats. taste the joy we put in every spoonful. introducing the all new chevy equinox. with an epa estimated 32 miles per gallon. and up to 600 miles between fill ups. it's the most fuel efficient crossover on the highway. better than honda cr-v, toyota rav4 and even the ford escape hybrid. the all new chevy equinox. my daughter was with me. i took a bayer aspirin out of my purse and chewed it. my doctor said the bayer aspirin saved my life. please talk to your doctor about aspirin and your heart. i'm going to be grandma for a long time. [ engine powers down ] gentlemen, you booked your hotels on orbitz. well, the price went down, so you're all getting a check thanks. for the difference. except for you -- you didn't book with orbitz, so you're not getting a check. well, i think we've all learned a valuable lesson today. good day, gentlemen. thanks a lot. thank you. introducing hotel price assurance, where if another orbitz customer books the same hotel for less, i'm julia boorstin with your market wrap. stocks ending on a high note today. the dow gains 120rks s&p 500 picked up 11 points and the nasdaq added nearly 29 points. oil prices rose favorably signs indicated an increase in future demand in china. prices settled just above $70 a barrel. a new sign the housing market may be recovering. home prices increased in the second quarter. the median sales price was $ $174,000. american express and discover will stop charging fees when customers go over credit limits. new regulations limit the way credit card issuers charge such fees. that's it from cnbc first in business worldwide. back to msnbc. welcome back, everyone. i'm tamron hall live in new york. >> i'm david schuster live in washington. >> the big picture, a new report finds anti-government militia groups are on the rise across the country. the southern poverty law center said the internet outreach and recruiting videos are surging. last october, the ohio militia release this had video billed as a wake-up call for america. a report finds the reason the rise in the groups are stressed from tough economic times along with a liberal administration run by an african-american president. researchers found they're concentrated in the midwest, pacific northwest and in the deep south. >> tamron, in the bigger picture with anti-government sentiment on the rise is president obama more at risk? the southern poverty law center found there aren't as many threats in violent acts as in the 1990s, but one federal official says all the movement is lacking is a spark. joining us live is ronald kessler, the author of a great new book out "in the president's secret service behind the scenes with agents in the line of fire and the presidents they protect." thanks for come in. you point out threats to president obama are up by something like 400% compared to president bush and yet, there are fewer secret service resources? >> secret service has been cutting corners ever since it was acquired by the department of homeland security to the point where they don't do magnetometer screening or close down early metal detection for major events, campaign appearances, presidential speeches and it's a combination of lack of resources, lack of understanding that you know, simply can't take chances like this. sort of a complacency within the secret service. they're trying to deny it exists even though it's obvious when biden threw the first pitch at the orioles game in april, there was no magnetometer or metal detection whatsoever. i know the secret service is now tell reporters sort of quietly without abtory bugs that was because his visit was not announced beforehand. totally false. all you have to to do is try google and all those announcements were made at least a day earlier. >> how nervous are agents about the overall environment that our country is in right now? >> they're very nervous. the ones who are, you know, on top of this problem. they say that it's really a miracle there has not been an assassination so far. the threats are mainly racist-based. and they are up 400%. they fluctuate somewhat, and when i tell former agents up to the level of deputy director that now they're not doing magnetometer screening on a regular basis, they can't believe it and say they never would have allowed it like letting passengers into an airplane without detection. >> let me ask you, i spent a retreat with the texas militia probably 15 years ago. and obviously, i'm african-american. so the whole time they were trying to convince me this was not about race but a movement about protecting the america that they love and that is as provided by the constitution. but beyond the safety of the president, how concerned are the voices out there about perhaps god for bid another oklahoma city bombing or what we saw at the holocaust museum in washington of someone taking out their anger whether had he be in a militia at innocent people. >> clearly that's a big, big issue as well as terrorists, al qaeda and would like nothing better than to wipe out the president as well as just nuts who see the white house and the president as this ultimate symbol of authority and they want to, you know, be the first to get notoriety because they assassinate that person just as lee harvey oswald did with jfk way back. and the white house is sort of seen as a mecca for all these people who want to assassinate the president and it's a constant battle. meanwhile, the secret service has not only been cutting corners by not doing magnetometer screening but cut back on counter assault teams to two members instead of five. their firearms are not up to date in many cases. they don't even do physical training or firearms requalification on a regular basis and cover that up by having agents score themselves on these tests. >> your book has great anecdotes about the families and there's been a lot of reporting whether the bush twins, the girls were difficult to cover. what's the answer? >> they were a terror. they got better later on. >> they were? >> jenna especially would purposely evade the secret service 0 would go through red lights to evade her detail. she and her boyfriend who became her husband, henry hager became so drunk or he did at a halloween party the agents had to take him to georgetown university hospital. another time he almost got into a brawl at a bar in georgetown. they had to intervene. very, very difficult. mary cheney also wanted to get the secret service to take her friend to restaurants. and the secret service refused for that, she had the detail leader removed. and again, that's an example of the secret service being spineless. here's this guy trying to do his job and they remove him. >> it's a great book. ronald kessler, thanks for talking about it and talking about the militias. we appreciate you joining us today. >> thank you. >> it's been called one of the -- one of britain's biggest jewelry heists ever. police say that two well-dressed men captured on surveillance camera stole $65 million worth of jewelry from a high end london store. amateur video shows the two suspects making their biggest cape. >> call the police, call the police! >> so scotland yard arrested one man in connection with the heist but he's been released. police say the suspects who were seen in the video are still on the run. marcus powell has more from london. >> there are fears that, of course, the robbers have fled abroad. they made no attempt to conceal their identities. it's been said the pieces that were stolen, 43 of them totally 40 million pounds, about $65 million, will be completely unsaleable over here. they're so easily identifiable. graff one of the world's leading jewelers making the pieces for celebrities like sir he wouldton john, paris hilton and madonna. those pieces will be unsaleable. it's suspected they will be broken down into component parts. if that is the case, experts here say that they will be worth just a fraction of the shop value, in fact, possibly about 10% so that would mean about $4 million pounds, $5.5 million, something of that nature. still a tidy sum but nothing approaching the kind of level of the retail value of these items. as i'm sure your viewers know, the robbers made no attempt to conceal their identities. clearly they were suited and looking smart, welcomed in by a security guard. they got past the door and produced guns to threaten the staff and demand that one of the cabinets was opened. they appeared to know exactly what they were after. so there are some who say that this could have been done to order. but whatever the actual backing behind this, it's believed that both the robbers and the jewels may well be long gone from this country. of course, in order to make good their escape, they took hostage a female member of staff held at gunpoint, dragged out into the street. there were security guards in new bond street actually full of high-end jewelers. so a huge amount of value in the street is regularly filled with security guards. of course, as soon as they were approached by one or two people trying to intervene, they fired some warning shots and that obviously made people retreat. they then made their get away in no less than three different vehicles. the first one actually crashed into a london taxi. they fired more shots after that. switched cars. passed the gems we believe in a package to a motorcycle rider who went off in the opposite direction. they switched cars a couple more times and haven't been seen since. so happy he a massive manhunt is going on over here. but the police are still making inquiries and haven't got sufficient evidence to hold anybody in custody at present. >> wow. 65 million in jewels. >> wow. good grief. sounds like it was chaos when those guys were running away. >> except for the reporter who had that cool demeanor and then they ran down -- makes it so james bondish. coming up, the possible town hall backlash has all the sound and fury turned off. moderate voters, independent people who are in the middle. it's today's face-off. big question. >> but first, the big moment today for the supreme court's newest member and first hispanic justice. sonia sotomayor was the guest of honor today at a white house reception hosted by the president and mrs. obama. >> this moment is not just about her. it's about every child who will grow up thinking to him or herself if sonia sotomayor can make it, then maybe i can, too. air life denver took to the air... their night-vision goggles keeping them safe on a perilous flight... and powering those precision goggles--- is the only battery air life trusts: duracell. trusted everywhere. look for new duracell ultra advanced now with even more power to protect. gathering dust, as pollen floats through the air. but with the strength of zyrtec ® , the fastest, 24-hour allergy relief, i promise not to wait as long to go for our ride. with zyrtec ® i can love the air ™ . mr. evans? 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according to stephen perl stein of the "washington post" they are worse. he writes by poirning the political well they've given up any pretense of being the loyal opposition and they've become political terrorists willing to say or do anything to prevent the country from reaching a consensus on one of its most serious domestic problems. here a form ser advisory to hillary clinton's campaign scott and brad blake. we just got incredible video in, senator chuck grassley talking about this issue that came up first with sarah palin of these death panels. here's what he had to say. >> there is some fear because in the house bill, there is counseling for end of life. and from that standpoint, have you every right to fear. you shouldn't have counseling at the ends of life. you ought to have counseling 20 years before you're going to die. you ought to plan these things out. you know, i didn't have any problem like livings will but they ought to be done within the family. we should not have a government program that determines if you're going to pull the plug on grandma. >> we heard the president say yesterday that you're not pulling the plug on grandma. what do you say to senator grassley telling this crowd of 300 people they should be concerned that "you're going to pull the plug on grandma"? >> there's a lot of things the president said yesterday we know are not true. he said aarp supported his plan. they said no, mr. president. we don't. >> let's get to the issue of this concern, a lot of old people are afraid that the government will use death panels here. >> they're afraid and here's why. the democrats aren't clear what they're selling to the american people. there is no bill that the democrats could coalesce behind to show the american people what the bill will be. >> let's make it perfectly clear. page 425 of the house bill says the section would require medicare to pay for some end of life planning counseling sessions with a health care provider. it would not require doctors to counsel that their patients refused medical intervention. grassley is flat out wrong. he's wrong. can't we agree on that? it's not in the bill. there's no way the government has a program that's going to pull the plug on grandma. >> categorization is nuts. he's a conservative that brought this up. >> the democrats have made their own problem here. if they would have coalesced between the house and senate behind a bill that the democrats could agree upon, let's not forget the democrats control high majorities in the house and senate. they don't need a single republican vote to pass health care. why isn't there health care? because they haven't agreed amongst themselves or with the president what the bill should be clear. >> you think that the government will kill people's grandmothers. is that what you believe? do you think that any bill will come out saying that they were going to end the life, pull the plug on grandmothers or any elderly person? do you believe this country would allow something like this, brad. >> i don't. here's what i fear. the fear of the unknown is what you're seeing in town halls. >> a lot is not known. you should fear it -- >> there's a lot in there to be scared about. >> josh, how can democrats negotiate with senator grassley when he flat out misrepresents lies whatever you want to call it, there's no such deposited program. why should the democrats bother negotiating with him if he doesn't understand what they're talking about. >> i agree we shouldn't be negotiating with people telling lies. this is the same old playbook the health insurance companies are doing, the republicans are doing trying to scare people and stop progress. you've got when health premiums more than doubled in the last eight years, the last thing we need is someone to stand in the way of reform. americans want affordable quality health care and choice. the republicans want to protect the health insurance lobby. it's simple. we've seen this before. i understand why brad is up there claiming about grandma. this is their only way to stop progress. >> you didn't hear brad say that. that didn't come from me. >> regardless where they're coming from, they are working. here's what happened during senator claire mccaskill's town hall on tuesday. watch what happened. >> so what happened right now is that you can -- >> the poster featured civil rights hero rosa parks. she puts it down. a photographer comes over to ask her about the poster. watch for a woman in a blue shirt not with the senator's security. just attending the town hall. she comes over and you're going to see here in a second, she is going to grab the woman's poster, crumble it up and throw it ot floor. and the crowd cheers. brad, that's not appropriate, is it. >> it is not. you know what's not appropriate either is when the democrats send union thugs out to intimidate people who are not for their plan. that's exactly what's happening. you have both sides. >> give me a break. >> josh, is that what they're doing. >> give me a break. the republicans have been planting people to scream and stop democracy and stop debate. we are for, brad, we are for debate. everyone's for debate. it's been eight years since we've had any debate in this country. that's why senators are out there wanting discussion and president obama is doing three town halls in the next few days. >> town halls with people invited to come there. >> a point that brad made, josh, and to his points. does this is administration have to work harder? the president spent as chuck todd noted much of the time noting what the health bill does not include rather than what it would do. do they need to start moving this forward more specific so the people don't think the government is trying to kill them. >> i think so. it's up to the president, up to congress, up to both sides to get out there and talk about what's in the legislation. brad, there's a four of the five bills are out of committee. they haven't even gone to the floor with a single bill yet because we're still in the debating process talking about the legislation. that's what's going to happen when you come back in the fall. we'll have a good honest debate and bring health care reform to the american people. i know the republicans wants to stand in the way of this but i think it's time. >> you don't even need us, josh. if your bill was so acceptable to your own party, could you pass it with not one single republican vote. the problem is with the democrats. it's with the conservative blue dogs and the more liberal wing of your party. that's where the problem lies, not with us. >> i think a lot of people agree with brad on that. thank you, josh, brad. >> i think we're going to get through this. >> good luck. >> hopefully grandma will make it with us. >> grandma will. >> i mean, you know how sad that is that you've got old people, you know, who really have been convinced? that breaks my heart. >> now they're being convinced by a united states senator. that's just unbelievable. >> wow. there's more. some things we thought you should know. >> a cleavage campaign overseas? afghan politicians trying to copy barack obama and a lawmaker takes a call at the wrong time. stick around for chris matthews on "hardball." he's got a great show coming up in eight minutes. - ( rock music playing ) - ♪ oh! what do you say to a spin around the color wheel? - to paint with primer already mixed in? - ♪ yeah yeah yeah... - test samples instead of can commitments? - ♪ whoo! - what do you say we dip into our wallets less... - ♪ are you feeling it? - ...and grab ahold of the latest tools out there... - ♪ oh! ...so we can quit all that messing around with extra steps - and get busy turning our doing dials up a notch? - ♪ whoo! ♪ oh! more saving. more doing. - that's the power of the home depot. - ♪ yeah yeah yeah. the sparkly flakes. the honey-baked bunches! the magic's in the mix. my favorite part? eating it. honey bunches of oats. taste the joy we put in every spoonful. but i did. you need to talk to your doctor about aspirin. you need to be your own advocate. be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. you take care of your kids, now it's time to take care of yourself. thththththththththththththththt. call or click today. there's a lot going on today and here are a few things we thought you should know. >> a german politician raising eyebrows over a campaign poster angela merkel. vera lekfeld shows her and merkel both sporting plunging necklines with the slogan "we have more to offer." lengfeld says the controversy is free publicity for her campaign. they look lovely, both of them. >> indeed. good for them. tamron, august 20th is election day in afghanistan and candidates are taking a page from president obama's campaign book hope and change seem to be the themes. change hope.com, go to the web site of dr. abdullah abdullah and that's not all. a video is out that promises hope for change and features a quote from president obama. interesting use of obama there. >> if you think people are getting angry at town halls over the issues, take a look at this. >> just because you think it's good for america -- okay. >> seriously, really, i mean, come on. >> okay. that's house member sheila jackson talking on the phone as a woman asked a question on health care in texas. a spokesperson