what does the west say publicly? how many public lines are drawn versus private lines, number one? and two, how important is it do you think that there is some public deterrence here, if you will? >> so, i think it's very important that we make clear that there are certain actions that russia might be contemplating that would change fundamentally our perspective on this war. and, indeed, president biden has said that as well as jens stoltenberg. they said such kind of use would change the nature of the conflict. i'm told -- >> but that's all they've said. i don't mean to -- look, i had the secretary-general on sunday. i asked him five ways from sunday, if you will, about is this a red line, and they were trying to say it changes the callus. i'm sitting there going, okay, that means we're going to get