kremlin. >> hasn't he already -- let me ask you this. it looks to me as if one of his goals is to weaken the nato alliance and weaken the united states alliances in europe. it's plainly obvious he succeeded there. look at germany and france, they would like to negotiate on their own with him. that's exactly what he's looking for. how is he not taking that and declaring victory? >> tragically, chuck, i agree with you. he's framed this crisis the way he wants to frame it, right? he framed this crisis about the alleged threat from nato expansion. by the way, the last major wave of nato expansion was 20 years ago. brussels was not talking about bringing ukraine into nato, the biden administration wasn't doing that. this was completely invented by putin and you're exactly right. what are we debating here in the united states? are we debating annexation as