has been a loser for the two liberal senators. >> okay. you say the debates haven't had an impact. i would argue that if the debates haven't had an impact, it's been on the entire democratic party taking a huge step back from medicare for all. >> sure. right. but also, though, the confusion of warren and harris came after the debates. right? >> true. no doubt. but it did help sort of accelerate that, whoa. >> then there's the electability question. and i don't think any of the challengers to biden have been able to dent this perception that he's the best one to run against trump. >> i'll be honest, in an electability, like, question, how do you get that out of a debate? i think it's an impossible -- it's unknowability. >> i think electability is built into who you want to vote for. right. in some ways, really problematic ways, we've referred to it. and i think in this sense, right, look, tonight i think howard is right. everybody is going to be looking at joe biden because he is a central figure in the impeachment. and also, so far on the campaign trail, he hasn't answered