invoke something called constitutional immunity? >> right. so kupperman's saying that he's between a rock and a hard place. he's saying, look, i don't want to defy my former boss, the president, who's not letting me come here. and i don't want to defy congress, who wants me to come testify. so he's saying, oh, i can't do anything about it. it's not up to me to make this decision. so, hey, judicial branch, you guys make this decision for me. now, democrats say that that's an absolute copout. that of course he is required to come before the congressional investigators. and they're saying that they're not going to wait around. they're not going to wait for the court system. they're just going to continue moving along with their investigation and putting this in some sort of impeachment or obstruction bucket should it come to that. >> so does this play any differently if there is a public hearing on this? if the vote goes through and -- and there is now suddenly public hearings when people don't show up for house subpoenas?