at penn, and the trans swimmer at penn, and they'll start saying, okay, well, is that really, is that fair to young girls that grew up swimming. and i said, why don't you have this discussion in your classroomings. -- classrooms. and we couldn't have the discussion on television. put that aside for another day. somebody wants to have that discussion. talk about how there are stories like this, where you can only express one side of the conversation or be cancelled by polite society. >> it's a great example of a discussion that's really hard to have right now, and that's partly because, look, transgender people are only becoming more accepted, more established, more recognized in society. they have, you know, steep hills to climb, face enormous discrimination, and so, you know, their notion is any questioning of their identity