Transcripts For MSNBC Morning Joe 20100420

>> that is a spot-on imitation. >> that's how he talks. i won the nobel prize. all the editors had to scramble around to try to help paul krugman and try to put humpty dumpty back together again. but andrew just provided links. here's this column he wrote. here's this blog he wrote. >> doing his job. >> where you were talking about nationalizing the banks. >> that's inconvenient. >> who's david and who's goliath in that fight? >> well -- >> or is it just a cage match between two equals. >> i think it's between two equals for different reasons. andrew ross sorkin is the best reporter on wall street. and paul krugman, because the nobel prize committee gives awards to people who are blindingly ideological is a nobel prize winner. but, you know, "the new york times" is going to defend krugman. and so that's what they did. he's too big to fail. >> for the record -- for the record, i'm wearing a team sorkin t-shirt. >> powerful links that you say. >> andrew has powerful links. they're not going to push back too hard on andrew. but listen, andrew just told the truth about their nobel-prize-winning economists. >> he's watching and not going to come in. >> no, "the times" didn't like that he told the truth. and the thing is, paul krugman threw such a little hissy fit. >> he did throw a hissy fit. he was blogging immediately. >> he was trying to say i didn't say what i said. despite the fact andrew provided link one, two, three. so i can't wait to have him here. >> yeah, it will be good. >> we have a good show. we do have a good show. we also have a lot of news going on. let's get to that. let's look at some of today's top stories. flights from a large part of the earth -- >> how's that ash going? >> you bet your ash it's still a problem. large parts of europe are resuming today giving hope to millions of travelers stranded from iceland's volcanic eruption. and while there have been limited flights from southern europe, more delays are expected this morning in the uk because of a new ash cloud spreading toward london. the aviation industry could lose more than $1 billion from the travel crisis. al qaeda in iraq has suffered what could be a major blow after u.s. and iraqi forces killed two top figures. al masri and his deputy, baghdadi, were killed sunday in a remote corner of the anbar province. >> their deaths are potentially devastating blows to al qaeda iraq. but equally important, in my view, is this action demonstrates the improved security strength and capacity of iraqi security forces. >> the top military commander in iraq, general ray odierno, also weighed in, calling the deaths, quote, potentially the most significant blow to al qaeda in iraq since the beginning of the insurgency. we're going to be talking to general odierno coming up a little later in the show. congress appears headed for a major partisan showdown over financial reform as debate begins to legislation to revamp the industry. both sides are eager to explore a lingering resentment toward wall street renewed last week by the announcement of fraud charges against powerhouse goldman sachs. >> either we let the people who know this legislation best get back to the negotiating people and work out a solution that's acceptable to both parties and to the american people, or i can come down to the floor, identify some of the flaws in the bill, watch as people come down to scream and yell about my suggestions and my motives and then wait for the white house to agree with me at the end of the week. >> our bill would have prevented that kind of events from happening, in my view. and that's what the public needs to know. by not enacting our legislation, by filibustering it, stopping it, we leave the american public vulnerable once again to the kind of shen anigans that have occurred in our large financial institutions across this country. this comes right down to this basic question. whose side are you on on this one? whose side are you on? >> meantime, the white house on monday strongly denied any involvement in the high-profile case against goldman. >> the s.e.c. doesn't notify the white house of its enforcement actions. and certainly didn't do so in this case. there was plenty of evidence friday morning before the s.e.c. got involved of the need to create new rules of the road and the desire by the american people to see those put into law. >> all right. we'll see what happens with that. president obama will be traveling to new york on thursday. the timing of all of this quite good for the administration to push financial reform and call for swift passage of the senate bill. the president will be speaking at cooper union about two miles from wall street where traders will no doubt be paying careful attention to his remarks. chief of staff rahm emanuel is also working to promote financial regulation in new york. emanuel spent sunday night touting the administration's push for reform at a dinner party among wall street elite. all right. so first of all, does anyone here, mark halperin, anything in the legislation that dodd is talking about or anything else on the table actually prevent too big to fail, or are we just running around in circles? >> it might not prevent all too bigs to fail, but it certainly could create a system in which these things are less likely to happen. and if they happen, taxpayers will be less on the hook. >> why would republicans have a problem with it in. >> i think the republican party is walking a fine line here between trying to seem populist and anti-wall street and also wanting to say the administration is too anti-business. it's a really interesting position. they have mitch mcconnell is a great inside player. he's now been thrust out onto the stage as an outside player. it is not always his best role. >> no, it's not. obama called him out this weekend. mcconnell came right back, you heard on the floor speech, basically said we can do it now or we can do it later. he must comfortable he's going to hold his 41 votes. >> that's the big question. and my guess is they won't. my guess is the white house has a lot of polling data in focus groups that show while americans don't want a big role for washington, this is the one thing they want washington to do. >> i think this is the one place where they can go left and not be harmed. >> the argument is to prevent the taxpayer, protect the american people. what is that? >> the president comes. he doesn't call mike. he doesn't write mike. >> what? >> this is not the first time this happened. remember, this happened on the terrorist trials in new york as well. >> yeah, is there a little -- >> probably should keep the mayor more in the loop. >> yeah. that would be a wise thing to do. >> let me see. >> you're so cool and collected. >> just go back to the republicans. mitch mcconnell, again, i think -- you're right. he probably thinks he can hold his side. i think he's playing a dangerous game to go up against the white house and the president on this when the president has got a lot of rhetoric on his side. >> got a lot of power, too, like the s.e.c., you know. the s.e.c. launching these investigations. that's the big scuttlebutt. word for the day, by the way, scuttlebutt. >> i thought it was belly of the beast. >> he called me out on that one this morning. i said obama on thursday was going into the belly of the beast on wall street. mr. new york city corrected me and said it was more like the esophag esophagus. >> you know. >> cooper union. >> it's near some of my favorite restaurants but it is not on wall street. >> good to know, new york insider. we'll see what happens. but the president's come to new york, and the white house thinks this is a winning issue. it may well be. >> i think it is. i don't see how you fail in this. and if they don't do it right, that would be incredibly disappointing. if they let this recreate itself, that would be disappointing. this is a really good change they could make for this country where they could get both sides to agree. am i wrong? >> but the republicans' argument is not do nothing, it's we need something stronger. too big to fail, this doesn't do anything about ratings agencies. it's not strictly obstruction. >> their argument is it's going to create more bailouts in the future. i don't know that that's really -- i don't think that's -- i think mark, you're exactly right. i don't think that's a plausible argument. only because what they're trying to do is they're trying to play to wall street by killing this bill. they're not killing this bill because wall street knows a tougher one's coming behind it. they're trying to obstruct it. >> so they're doing wall street's bidding while they're saying this bill isn't tough enough on wall street. and i think over time that cognitive dissidense is going to make it hard for them to sustain that argument. >> the partisanship continues on both sides. the democrats decided going in they were trying to set the republicans up to fail. the republicans are now trying to set the president up to fail. >> i must disagree. >> of course you will. >> in this case because republicans were given every chance -- in fact, there were talks for weeks between republicans and democrats. this was a case where, in fact, they don't disagree that much on the substance. and at the end, for whatever reason, republicans decided not to cooperate. the white house could have probably cooperated a little bit more. this is not a case where republicans started by taking their marbles. they waited till the end. one more story to get to. president obama is warning california democrats that senator barbara boxer is facing a difficult re-election race. he made the comments at a fund-raiser for boxer last night in l.a. and shortly after taking the stage, gay rights protesters began heckling the president over don't ask, don't tell, forcing the president to respond. >> fear and financial insecurity into too many people's lives. i'm sorry, do you want to come up here? all right. because -- can i just say, once again, barbara and i are supportive of repealing don't ask, don't tell. so i don't know why you're hollering. >> okay. i don't think he was forced to respond. >> he's so cool. if this guy could become elected president, he'd change to cool. >> isn't it cool? >> the coolest. the coolest. >> and he keeps his calm. >> heckle shmeckle. >> what do we got going today? >> up next -- >> did i tell you about andrew ross sorkin? >> we boy. >> he put down paul krugman. >> squashed him like a bug. feeling independent? charlie crist may lead the bid in the party. next in the "politico playbook." plus, lost and found. the next-generation iphone that the public wasn't supposed to see accidentally left in a very public place. now apple's scrambling to get it back. but first, bill karins with your green is universal forecast. bill? >> that's great. >> good morning, everyone. beautiful tuesday out there. behind me, a shot of the hudson river, george washington bridge. and nice shot out there. as far as the forecast goes, cool, crisp start to your day. beautiful afternoon. 70 in new york. 69 in washington, d.c. 65 in pittsburgh. as far as the forecast goes, the southeast is going to see wet weather. the west coast, anyone flying to l.a., san francisco or seattle, possible airport delays. those showers are arriving in atlanta. we just heard that the space shuttle "discovery" this 7:34 launch has been scrubbed. the next turn will be around 9:00. showers off the coast the culprit for canceling. if it doesn't get the next opportunity, it will have to land at edwards air force base in the next couple days. the rest of the country, looking good today and tomorrow. no big weather stories. we'll just try to get "discovery" home later on this afternoon. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. 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"wall street journal," the s.e.c. decided to sue goldman over the objections of two republican commissioners suggesting a split down party lines within the agency. >> and "the usa today," the nation's fastest growing political party is -- none of the above. >> oh. >> more americans are registering unaffiliated rather than signing up as a republican or a democrat. >> interesting. "washington post," the food and drug administration planning an unprecedented effort to gradually reduce -- i love it -- the salt consumed by each day by americans. good idea. >> good luck. "the new york times," a cyber attack against google late last year is said to have hit a key password system that controls millions of users' access to google's services. the intruders believed to be working in china. boston globe," a new course record in the boston marathon. more on this coming up in sports. first our politico desk with willie geist. >> and mike allen. the chief political correspondent for politico. he's got a look at today's "playbook." hi, mike. >> morning, guys. >> let's talk florida. charlie crist, we know he's down 22 points or so to marco rubio in the republican primary. where does that leave him? >> that leaves him mr. zur, lo-zur. >> he didn't just say that. >> chary chris is the poster child for that "usa today" story, the unaffiliated voters. for weeks and weeks, as your viewers know, he's been saying no, i'm going to stick to this republican thing, not going to go independent. now with the deadline april 30th, it looks like he's going that way. in a couple interviews yesterday, he said well, i'm going to talk to the people in florida, which means his consultants, to figure out whether he's better off to go independent or drop out altogether. going ahead in the republican primary, no longer feasible for him. the executive director of the senate republican campaign committee yesterday saying zero chance that that will happen. and today politico's morning score, early morning e-mail about the 2010 races scooping the today. eric cantor will endorse rubio talking about his strong economic record, sealing him as the establishment candidate. >> joe, and i like charlie's chances as an independent ? >> well, i think it will be tough for him to win, but i think charlie crist can win. i think this state with these three players presents him a great opportunity. listen, i think an independent with the right money could win new york state easily. you could pick out a lot of states right now where independents with the right financial backing could win. charlie crist has great name i.d. and he's got a lot of money. and the very things that have been driving conservative republicans crazy are the very things that a lot of independents. >> and look at the headline we just read about people not affiliating themselves with democrats or republicans. mike, go ahead. >> mike? >> joe, you know the florida makeup so well. the skepticism that some people have about that is he goes in as an independent, forced into it rather than doing it on his own terms. and who is his base? is it the left going to come to him? is the right going to come to him? >> no. >> it looks a little lonely. he only needs 35%, i agree with you. >> and that's the thing. what is the base? charlie's base would be the middle. and marco rubio is obviously a superstar in the conservative movement nationwide. but i will tell you in the state of florida, it's a fascinating state. this is a state that a few years ago only maybe 60% of the people knew who bob graham was because so many people flood in and out of that state. and if you're talking about a general election between a guy that's been on the set -- because in florida it's so funny. that's what people say time and time again. when people are talking every two years about running for a different statewide office, how many times you been on the ticket statewide? because it's such a huge state that there are a lot of people along the i-4 corridor who don't know who marco rubio is or kenneth meek. >> the question you answer the yourself. if charlie crist runs as an independent, if he's not the favorite to run, who is? i don't think it's kenneth meek or marco rubio. i think it's charlie crist. >> and rubio has, by becoming a champion of the right, put himself out as a very, very conservative candidate, and that's why he's held at cpac and that's why he's a tea party candidate. >> and they don't win in florida usually. >> but florida is a massive state with tons of media markets. and it is -- you know, they went for obama last time. so in general elections, you don't know. and primaries, very conservative. i don't -- listen. if anybody tells you they know who's going to win that race, if charlie jumps in as an independent, they're whistling in the dark. which is why charlie, willie, should consider politically running as an independent. >> sounds like he's going to. mike, i want to ask you about goldman sachs. they've chosen an interesting attorney to help them navigate these latest fraud charges. tell us about it. >> spotted at the capitol was the president's former counsel, gregory craig turns out is on the goldman money train. >> i'd like to be on that train. >> a lot of people are going to be, i can tell you that. at 8:00 a.m. today goldman will be having their conference call about first quarter earnings. we'll get the first look at their legal strategy. very unusual. they're putting their counsel on the conference call to talk to shareholders, analysts, and give their spin about what they're going to do with these s.e.c. fraud charges. >> wow. a lot of news. >> we still want to work with goldman sachs, right? >> oh, yeah, counting on it. >> goldman will be here long after the s.e.c. >> that's why i'm keeping my mouth shut. go goldman. >> go to break. >> mike, thanks so much. we'll check back with you later in the show. coming up here, more of rahm emanuel's interview with charlie rose. how does he really feel about the media? i think we already know the answer to that. and a reminder, "morning joe" now broadcasting live on satellite radio. >> big news, by the way, willie. >> turn into sirius channel 90 or xm channel 120. >> hey, we heard you, willie, on sirius. >> did you, coming in? >> yeah, it was good. it's called "way too early." >> is that right? >> it's on the radio. >> we'll be right back. >> you should put it on television. i have big news for everybody with frequent heartburn. let me show you. there's a new 24-hour heartburn formula that's different. it's called zegerid otc. only zegerid otc has both prescription strength-medicine and a special ingredient to allow its powerful medicine to be quickly absorbed. zegerid otc controls and suppresses acid all day and all night. there's a brilliant new idea in heartburn relief. new zegerid otc. discover the difference. blend it. sprinkle it. sweet! [ female announcer ] just about anywhere you use sugar you can use splenda® no calorie sweetener. [ male announcer ] savory. fluffy. yummy. sweet! [ female announcer ] splenda®. america's favorite no calorie sweetener. [ female announcer ] splenda®. with expedia, i've got of a perfect girls' weekend. it all starts with having more hotels to choose from. so i can find someplace familiar... or somewhere more unique. nice. then expedia lets me compare dates to find out when i can save the most cash. done and done. we should do this more often. where you book matters. expedia. because with national, i roll past the counter... and choose any car in the aisle. choosing your own car? now that's a good call. go national. go like a pro. ♪ if you want it ♪ here it is ♪ come and get it all right. look at times square. isn't that pretty this morning? welcome back to "morning joe." >> i'm not going to lie. i love new york. you know what else i love? i love florida. >> yes, it's a good state. >> it's my home. >> i love pensacola. i like running on that beach. that is hot weather. >> have you been to pensacola before? >> i have. it's beautiful. and the nicest people. >> they have the greatest people. all of florida has the greatest people. >> i have run in the hottest areas on earth, and that place -- >> beautiful beaches. >> oh, my gosh. >> it's amazing. >> overheated running five miles. >> the most beautiful name in the state. >> if i could just brag on the city. >> is it about bagel heads? >> i love bagel heads. i love the fish house. >> it's fun there. >> did you know that pensacola is where america began? except for those menacing indians. pensacola was the first european settlement. i say that because every time i go pensacola is where america begins, what about what you did to the indians? okay. other than that. seriously, it was set up about 50 years before st. petersburg in 1559. but a hurricane wiped it out. >> bagel house, h-o-u-s-e? >> bagel heads. >> i'm craving a bagel head bagel right now. >> anyway, pensacola, the greatest place in the world. 6:30 on the east coast. all right, shush. >> that is everything. the state of florida has everything. including what it doesn't have, which is income taxes. i love it more every day. >> okay. it's time to stop. time for a look at some of today -- >> is that a crime? >> --'s top stories. according to a defense report, iran may be able to build a long-range missile capable of striking the u.s. within five years. the document also spells out that despite pledges by iranian officials -- it's not good -- shia militants in iraq, iran continues to provide training to those militants. a new study finds one-third of u.s. teenagers with cell phones send more than 100 text messages with a girl. >> this is horrible. >> with girls sending and receiving more times than girls. a survey says texting is now the main way teens communicate. this is fascinating. even more so than phone calls or talking face to face. it's a little weird. >> yeah. >> and there's not a lot of human connection there. obviously, i think kids that are too young find themselves in situations they're not ready for or that they don't understand because of texting. i did a "nightly news" piece on this. >> no one knows how to write anymore. >> and they're sloppy. i'm actually having an internet expert come to my house and set the ground rules in my house like supernanny. >> you are the worst mother ever. all those shorthand things, lol, laughing out loud, wtf, why the face? i mean, you know? i'm hip with the kids, though. >> why the face? it's not why the face. >> oh, really, mika. >> the abbreviation takes more effort than actually writing out the word. that's what i don't understand. but i'm just an old-fashioned guy. >> happy face willie. >> let's go over to you. >> let's go over to me. i've got some sports. ben roethlisberger, been ben, the big goon -- i don't know. criminal charges, no criminal charges against him in that case in georgia where he was in the bathroom with the college student, allegedly, but he was back on the football field yesterday as he awaits punishment from the nfl. no criminal charges buzz the nfl reserves the right to smack him around a little bit. league commissioner roger goodell talking about the steelers' quarterback and his plans for him on the "dan patrick radio show" yesterday. >> has he violated the personal conduct policy? >> yes, there has been a violation of that. the issue here is with respect to a pattern of behavior and bad judgments. you do not have to be convicted or even charged with a crime to be able to demonstrate that you violated a personal conduct policy and reflect poorly not only on themselves but their entire teammates, all of their teammates, every nfl player in the league and everyone associated with the nfl. nba playoffs. we've got to show you lebron. he's playing possessed in the first two games of the playoffs creating a poster last night on that poor young man who challenged him on a dunk. just don't do that. there's no point. >> i didn't know the playoffs were going on. >> lebron taking over in the fourth. >> are they playing hockey? >> yeah, apparently they are. a deep three there. then lebron sealing the game. the cavs up 2-0 on the bulls. they're looking to march back into the nba finals. the boston marathon, part of patriots day, beat out the red sox game. >> awful. >> terrible. >> oh, i love it. >> this is the winner, the finish line, takes the race in 2:26.11. the third closest finish ever in the event. on the men's side, that's kenya's robert cheruiyot. he set a new record. mika, you're a big runner. >> amazing. that's fast. >> their pitching -- i'm serious. their bats, even worse. and last night they couldn't even catch the ball. >> it's going to be okay. >> ortiz and j.d. drew, two of their mainstays over the past five years, combined don't have .300 at bat. they're horrific. >> oh, stop. >> but as a yankee fan, you want the red sox to be bad. blue jays -- >> maybe they'll come back. it's such a weak lineup. the secret is blown on apple's next-generation iphone. somewhere in america... there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again. somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, more than sixty thousand people spend every day answering them. siemens. ♪ how do you think the media's done? >> how much time we got here? they play a role in exacerbating the sense that america is pulled apart. and it's not as pulled apart as -- >> and do you think rush limbaugh or glenn beck are part of the process of pulling them apart? >> i wouldn't limit it to them, but i think they play that role. they have their differences. that's clear. and that's okay. but they do play a role in exacerbating tensions. and that probably could also be said about some on the left. >> the president came to washington talking about change and bipartisanship. and yet he chooses the most partisan figure as the guy he wants to back him up. >> i'm a fierce fighter for what i believe in. i'm a fierce fighter when the president lays out his agenda to get his agenda done. that doesn't mean i'm partisan. it means i'm very loyal to the set of ideas. ♪ out here in the fields >> i like this one. >> welcome back to "morning joe." come on, halhalperin. he was the most partisan guy in washington. >> he has more contact with republicans than any democrat i know. >> come on, joe. the left hates him. you know, he called us f'ing "r" words. i can't say either. >> joining us from salon.com, joan walsh. >> one of these things about rahm, okay, i think as somebody who is, like, a republican and a conservative and doesn't hang out with northeast wing journalists on the upper west side like me. >> like you. >> like me. in talking to my republican friends, they think rahm emanuel is one of the most partisan men in washington, d.c. that being said, he's also very moderate ideologically, and the left, he kind of gets it from both sides. >> he does get it from both sides. and in general, he's been a force to conciliation, forced to water down some of what the liberals in the administration want. so i don't get that this he's this incredible partisan guy. is he tough? is he a fighter? obviously. does he throw around interesting language? yes. >> hey, let's not judge him for that. >> i don't judge for that. >> i thought also very measured in his discussion last night with charlie rose. like how he said. and this is everybody needs, especially in the 15th anniversary of oklahoma city yesterday, i think it helps us all. there are extreme voices on the left. there are extreme voices on the right, and it's our responsibility to call out people, i believe, on our side. >> who would you have me call out? >> who would you say on the left is comparable to rush and -- >> don't do it. >> no thanks, joan. we're good. we're good. >> can we talk about -- >> i think it's all very obvious. >> is it obvious? who on the left is comparable to rush and glenn? >> i'll talk to you off set. i mean, my god. >> we'll talk off set. >> okay. >> seriously. it's, like, beep, beep, beep, right in front of you. you're, like, what? i don't see it. >> wow. come on! you're killing me. >> you're killing us. >> wow! willie, help me out here. >> that was mean. >> i'm stepping in for you because i didn't want you to step into something. >> i'll be quiet. i'm not saying a thing. >> chris, the producer, producing the show. what, chris? >> just please read an op-ed. "washington post," suspicious minds. the overhyped tea party phenomenon is more about symbolism and screaming than anything else. a movement that encompasses gun nuts, tax protesters, devotees of the gold standard, sarah palin, insurance company lobbyists, constitutionalists who have not read the constitution, medicare recipients who oppose government-run health care, crazy birthers who claim president obama was born in another country, a contingent of outright racists -- >> is this joan? >> and a bunch of fat-cat professional politicians -- >> this is our friend, eugene robinson? >> this is our friend, eugene robinson. >> i was trying to move the conversation to a different area. >> oh, my god. she found our good friend gene. >> gene, where's gene? why isn't he here? >> call him up at home. >> gene's like pat buchanan where he's so calm that he walks down into that basement and gets in front of that typewriter and the rage. gene writes things that i couldn't see coming out of his mouth. >> they come out of his mouth periodically. there's a lot of extremism on the right right now. and i don't see it matched on the left. and i guess we'll just leave it there. >> no, that's fine. again, i don't want to do this back-and-forth stuff. but really, do you think this is a responsible way to forward dialogue in america, to call people that disagree with you racists? >> they're not calling them all racists. there's a minority that's racist. >> what's a gun nut? >> that's a good question. >> he says the tea party phenomenon -- >> nuts about guns? >> -- symbolism and screaming than anything else. no, it's not. no, it's not. you can't completely -- it is the opposite of that. there are lots of people out there, and i've talked to a lot of them. and i know a lot of them voted for me in 1994 that are genuinely concerned about the explosion of the federal government. >> right. >> that think that the federal government is spending too much, they're taxing too much, and they have some really good reasons for doing it. you know, it would be as if i dismissed the entire left wing movement of the anti-bush movement of the past eight years by running around all the time talking about that movie where the assassination of george w. bush. >> which none of us ever saw. >> i could show you nazi signs. i could show you a lot of hate speech out there. but for gene to take the one or two or 5% inside this movement and say they're about screaming more than anything else is not responsible. but there's a lot of that put-down. >> it's hard because taxes are at their lowest in 60 years. on the day that they're screaming about -- >> you live in california. >> well, we're talking about federal taxes. that's what obama has control over. >> right. but we talk about the entire situation -- >> the tea party, you're right. there's a local -- >> new york. not to cut you off, but what i found in '94, this happens for some reason during economic downturns. we had on the local level, the state level, the national level, everybody raising taxes. >> right. they're trying to fill in. >> it's going down. the same thing's happening now, and it's causing a lot of anger out there. >> it's not happening at the federal level. obama has cut taxes. that's just a fact. why do we act like that is not a fact? >> well, you could look at cbo numbers or you could look at a joint committee for taxation that shows the plan raises taxes about $450 billion. >> but from whom? i mean, and where? >> all of us. >> there are fees. no, not from all of us. >> are we like huey long saying don't tax you, tax me, tax the guy behind the tree? the taxes on the medical devices and the taxes on medical services -- >> tanning salons, i know. >> no, no, and our health insurance, that ends up being spread to all of us. you know that. >> if it gets to it. >> if there's a giants tax, they're going to raise your tickets. and you know that. >> and they do every year. it's the price of living in the free world. and to get to the question about gun nuts, gun nuts are people who go to a federal park to protest that barack obama is going to take their guns after it was obama who actually signed the bill letting them carry guns in that national park. there's a lot of inconsistency here. there's a lot of hype and acting as though taxes are going up. he's taking our guns when there's no such thing going on. that's fair. >> as the kids say on the mean streets of pensacola, florida, joan, let's get real. >> oh, boy. you hate it when i say that. >> why the face? >> why the face? >> so joan, do you fear -- i'm serious -- do you fear -- by the way, she's staying. so you can play the music all you want. okay. >> she stays till 7:30. we've got here. >> let's not let her go. do you fear the tea party personally? >> i don't personally fear the tea party. i don't like the rhetoric. i think that there is an extremism and a violent -- the revolution stuff. we weren't talking revolution under bush. >> i just wonder if that's media created, though. >> i don't think so. >> the edgy part of it. >> i really don't think so. i've seen sober appreciations of the tea party. >> yes. >> and i've seen sober appreciations that also talk to the fringe of the tea party. they are there. they are not left plans, they are not people hyped by the liberal media. they are there with their signs. they are there calling obama a communist and a socialist and a marxist. i don't think it's helpful. >> okay. >> don't do that, joe. >> i don't. did you call out the left during the bush years? >> yeah, i did. >> did you ever write a column? let's stay away from calling him a hitler. >> the moveon petraeus ad, read my blog, criticized it. >> that's why i love you. >> joan walsh. >> she is great. >> yes, she is. she is. >> i love her. coming up in just a few minutes, white house economic adviser austan goolsbee is waiting in the green room. >> what is he doing? >> teaching robbie how to spell his name. willie, what do you have next? >> we've got a great story about the iphone. apple employee leaves it in a bar. >> super secret. >> super discreet in silicon valley. it's a secret no more. the guy gets a little liquored up, leaves the next-generation iphone behind and the gadget geeks tear it apart. the story when "morning joe" comes right back. 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[ female announcer ] ask your rheumatologist about simponi™. male announcer: be kind to your eyes with transitions lenses. transitions adapt to changing light so you see a whole day comfortably and conveniently while protecting your eyes from the sun. ask your eyecare professional which transitions lenses are right for you. female announcer: ask your eyecare professional for your transitions lenses certificate of authenticity for your chance to win back the purchase price of your eyeglasses. oh, yes, please, please, please tell me it's time. >> time for "news you can't use." chris keeps saying silicon vall valley. >> seriously, get a life. >> he lived in california for 15 years and he's still calling it silicone? >> silicon valley. >> i'm, like, with all the problems we have on this show and they're freaking out in there about that. woo hoo! look in the mirror, boys. >> the next iphone not scheduled to come out for a couple months is now in the hands of gadget geeks. how did it happen? how did it happen? well, an apple software engineer was out at a bar in redwood city, presumably got himself good and liquored up and left behind the next-generation iphone. now, somebody picked it up, realized they had something valuable in their hands, sold it to the website gizmodo for $5,000, sort of a tech website. they've pulled it apart, it's fired all over the web now. people going crazy, breaking down, have they made the iphone better. apple wants its merchandise back. apple's letter to gizmodo saying that it has come to our attention that gizmodo is currently in possession of a device that belongs to apple. this letter constitutes a formal request that your return the device to apple. they have a glass back on the new phone that's going to help with reception which has been the big problem with dropped calls. so this has really blown up all over the web. the new iphone, it's not due out for a couple months. >> i've got the gizmodo reply here. it says "when donkeys fly." >> strong comeback. one more thing to tell you about -- mika, you'll hate this because it's kate gosselin. she's on "dancing with the stars." bad is bad. none of us here great dancers. >> no, but she sucks. >> well, listen to the judges. >> it wasn't really a dance, it was a stroll. you didn't really dance 'round the floor, you sort of strolled 'round the floor. >> when i watch you dance, it's kind of like the charlie brown teacher. it never becomes, like, a formed sentence or formed move. >> darling, i think tony could have had more life as a frock on a coat hanger. i mean, you were wafting around, catatonic. >> that's my man bruno tonioli. >> she makes herself a victim time and time again whether it be with her multiple babies or her life or her books. morning shows being interviewed about the stupidity. >> somebody's jealous. >> you know who's like that? 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to finish what you started today. for the aches and sleeplessness in between, there's new motrin pm. no other medicine, not even advil pm, is more effective for pain and sleeplessness. new motrin pm. ♪ hear what i say we're not watering this down. we're not putting this -- chip, the big banks for years had regulation on their side, and it led to what i think most people would say was the worst economic downturn in their lifetimes. that economic downturn, why would it be met with handing regulatory power to the big banks? and watering this down? >> all right. welcome back to "morning joe." top of the hour. joan walsh still with us. thank goodness. and mark halperin. and here with us now, member of the white house council of economic advisers, austan goolsby. good to have you. >> international man of mystery. thanks for being here, austan. greatly appreciate it. we're going to ask him whether he's the one that pushes this back tax. >> what's that about? >> no. it's not about that. there's nothing about that. >> we'll get to it, because "new york times" john harwood yesterday reporting the white house considering a back tax. >> i think george will has an opinion about this that he wrote recently. >> as a republican, i'm scared to death they'll pass it because the back tax is going to be popular. the democrats, 50, 60, maybe 70 seats. raise taxes more. we're just ribbing you here. but we will actually let you respond in a second after mika does the news. it's good to have you here. >> it's great to see you guys. >> are you telling me the truth? >> yeah, i've never been in the studio before. this is nice. >> did you meet kenneth dupage? >> i don't think i'm going to answer that question. >> okay. all right. let's get to our top stories. and we'll start with the major partisan showdown over financial reform. debate begins on legislation to revamp industry, and both sides are eager to ex-plort a lingering resentment toward wall street. renewed last week by the announcement of fraud charges against powerhouse goldman sachs. >> either we let the people who know this legislation best get back to the negotiating table and work out a solution that's acceptable to both parties and to the american people, or i can come down to the floor, identify some of the flaws in the bill, watch as people come down to scream and yell about my suggestions and my motives, and then wait for the white house to agree with me at the end of the week. >> our bill would have prevented that kind of events from happening, in my view. and that's what the public needs to know. by not enacting our legislation, by filibustering it, stopping it, we leave the american public vulnerable once again to the kind of shenanigans that have occurred in our large financial institutions across this country. this comes right down to this basic question. whose side are you on on this one? whose side are you on? meantime, the white house on monday strongly denied any involvement in the high-profile case against goldman sachs. >> the s.e.c. doesn't notify the white house of its enforcement actions, and certainly didn't do so in this case. there was plenty of evidence friday morning before the s.e.c. got involved of the need to create new rules of the road and the desire by the american people to see those put into law. >> so austan, when did the white house call the s.e.c.? is there a red phone in your office? >> there's a switch. >> you just flip the switch? so the republican -- obviously the republican line they keep repeating on the senate floor is that this is going to ensure bailouts to wall street in the future. >> the thing is, it's crazy. i'm sure that if i call up the staff from senator mcconnell's office and show them where it outlaws bailouts, that you can only -- that you can only either break up the company and sell it off in pieces or liquidate it, they'll stop saying that once they determine that it is specifically outlawed in the bill. >> let's explain that again and underline it again just for people. >> that's what i want to do. >> so in the bill, the language explicitly states, if the federal government has to intervene again, what happens to these? let's say citi goes under a year from now. >> okay. two things happen. the first is taxpayers are not on the hook. all of the money is paid by financial institutions in the form of a bank fee. >> let me stop you right there. all of the money. >> yes. >> all of the money. >> that money has been paid by a fee on banks. >> what if there's not enough in the fund? >> then there's -- whatever charges are paid by the financial industry. that's the first step. the second step is, nobody's allowed to be bailed out. it specifically outlaws bailouts. they must be liquidated or broken into pieces and sold off. all the management must be fired, and the shareholders must be wiped out. it specifically outlaws exactly the thing that they just keep standing up and saying that it promotes. >> does that protect the taxpayer or leave them holding the bag? >> that protects the taxpayer. >> how? >> the taxpayer is not paying, and you cannot have a situation like aig, like citi where they're propping up a company the government is putting money in. >> there are going to be bank fees they'll pay into a fund. if a bank goes under, the federal government steps in, they use that money -- >> it's like funeral expenses. this is not keeping guys alive. >> let me ask you, mark. >> sounds like a great way of putting it. >> the republicans' approach -- >> yeah, come on, mark. >> pretend you're not an upper west side journalist and let's just pretend that you were a down the middle, hard-nosed, gum shoe -- >> just this once. >> just this once. defend the republican position. >> i cannot defend what they're doing. >> look at you! look at you! >> they are willfully misreading the bill or engaged in a cynical attempt to keep the president from saying something. >> just pretend. >> just go into fantasyland. >> what they're saying doesn't really make any sense. >> there is no -- there's not a shred of truth to that. you will stake your journalistic -- >> joe, you do it. >> i think there's where there's a shred of truth, which is you can create the fund with fees on financial institutions. but it's kind of enshrines the notion of the federal government getting involved in managing, whether it's a funeral or a resuscitation. the federal government now has a memorialized institutional role in dealing with companies that fail. >> you say that as if it's a bad thing. >> well, apparently the republicans -- >> the republicans can say, based on that, well, they're now setting up a device that will make sure that if a bank fails, there will be bailouts in the future. >> but it's not a bailout. the banks are broken up. they're sold off. that money is not to bail them out. there will be costs incurred. >> the second thing i'd say is, they're putting all the attention on that. everybody knows a consultant just handed them that line and they're just reading it. it doesn't matter what's in the bill. it could be a bill about breakfast cereal and they're going to say this is a bailout bill. >> do you think frank lutz would like telling me what to say in the morning? >> if you pay him, i'm sure he would. >> i'm sure he would. the thing is, it's also just trying to take the focus off of where it should be, which are on things like should we bring derivatives out into the open and give them regulatory oversight? this is a subject that almost blew up the entire world with aig. it's maybe esoteric, but it's really, really important. and the republicans are trying to put the loopholes back into the derivatives oversight. >> why? >> i don't know why. >> come on. why? >> the fact that they won't engage on going through the details about derivatives and instead just keep saying it's a bailout bill. raises suspicions that they're just trying to cover what's happening in this other area. it will be bipartisan in the end. i don't think -- not by the leadership, but regular republicans and regular democrats are going to go out there, they're going to look at the bill. they've got to stand up and vote. are you going to vote for this or not for it? i think they're going to say -- they're going to vote for it. >> who do you see? you've got bob corker saying all the right things but then saying it's very likely he's going to vote against it. he's calling mcconnell on his -- i call them lies, other people call them misleading statements -- and yet he doesn't seem to feel free to vote for this. so who do you get? who do you think you pick up? >> you guys are far more expert about that than me. >> bob corker will be on at 7:30. >> you saw they had a letter. they made a big thing of we've got 41 republicans to sign this letter. you read the letter, it is a -- you know, we promise that we are going to read anything that comes out. you know? i know exactly as it's written, it wouldn't be supported by republicans. but in the end, i think it's going to be bipartisan not in the sense of everybody horse traded their loopholes. it's going to be a nice, clean bill, and you're going to have a lot of people vote for it. >> i think it's going to be a lot like the jobs bill. they always work in this way. the whip comes to you and says i know you're not going to be with us in the end, but stay with us on the procedural vote. you've got to stay with us on the procedural vote. and just give our leader a little bit of leverage because if you break corker, then you're going to empower harry reid. that's how they usually do it. >> and at the end some people will vote. >> at the end they'll vote for it. you'll have all the new england people voting for it, corker. >> what do you think is motivating republicans to pursue this? are they trying to deny the president a victory? >> i think there's a huge political opening for republicans right now. because the wealthy in america, the most educated america, over the past 8, 12 years have been breaking the democratic party for cultural reasons, not for economic reasons, and there's been a great shock on wall street that this president has been more progressive than they expected. they don't think he's a capitalist. i'm just saying what they think on the street. and so now you have people with a lot of money. i mean, barack obama got the most money in '08 from goldman sachs, from all the hedge fund people, from wall street, all the big money. so now republicans say, okay, here's money we haven't gotten close to in 8 to 12 years for cultural reasons. and now these people, we've got a chance to get it back. so they want barack obama's money. and they want it from goldman sachs. >> the irony here is if you go talk to a lot of -- not all of them, but if you talk to a lot of leading financial people, i think they want this done. i think they say, look. they agree on 90% of what's in -- what's in this bill. >> tired of being the bad guys. >> and they don't want to be -- look -- >> where's jamie dimon on this? i only listen to jamie dimon. where's he? >> each of the banks goes through the bill and finds, you know, these are the eight lines that most cut into our profits. and so they try to pose them. but fundamentally, they know we must re-establish public trust or they've got -- >> let's talk big picture here because the bailouts have really, i think, hurt the obama administration on every legislative matter they've tried to push. the bailouts just sort of hang like this political dark cloud over everything. do you get the message out to americans that the bank bailouts actually pay a dividend, or do you just keep your mouth shut? let's just explain to everybody, the federal government has made money now on bailing out the biggest banks. >> yes, look. i think -- and in a lot of these you just keep your mouth shut. what we say is everyone thinks it costs $700 billion. through good management, we have lowered that -- it's expected to be $85 billion. >> that's still aig and detroit. >> aig, there's some housing. a lot of the banks have paid back. there are some regional banks that still haven't paid back the money. but even that, no matter what it is, the american people should not be paying for that. it's right in the t.a.r.p. law, and the president said financial institutions should clean up that mess. and that's another sticking point in this bill. the president says, we ought to have a bank fee to pay back those losses and their finances. >> and i think what's angered most americans is the fact that the very people that wrecked this economy were able to stay in place, were able to get huge bonuses, and the boards were able to stay together. it seems to me the popular part of this bill would be, okay, if you go under, we're going to break you up. we're going to fire all you people. we're going to kick them out. i think that's a winning political message for either side. >> i do, too. and right now it's the democrats who are pushing that. maybe that that's the part of the bill that republicans learn to love. but for now, you know, they're acting as though this is a bailout. they're using the bailout word. the bailout started with the bush administration. we all know that. >> yeah. >> this was a huge problem for the country that almost brought us to depression. both the bush administration and the obama administration did what they perceived that they needed to do. that was -- it was bipartisan. it was our last bipartisan moment. >> and we were against it, but you know what? it just may have worked. >> it just may have worked. >> let me ask you, what do you think the white house should do? because this is a vexing problem for progressives, okay? any bill that you tried to pass in washington, d.c., to expand the size of government is going to be hurt by the bailout. and i'll ask you the same question i asked austan. should the white house get up front and say we didn't like it? but these bailouts actually paid off? >> personally, i think, yes. i think they should. i think they should be pushing that message. they should be pushing that it's down to $85 billion and we're going to get it down lower with these bank fees that republicans are fighting. we don't like bailouts, but we brought the economy back from the brink of disaster. here's how we did it. and then discuss the populist elements of the bill. my criticism of the white house on health care reform, too, is that they were too late in telling ordinary people how they were going to be affected by the legislation. >> we're now going over to our vat desk. let's go to vat correspondent mark halperin. mark, do you have a topic for austan? >> the president is coming. you can ask him about that. >> george will is coming, too. >> will the president ever consider tax reform that would involve a bet? would he ever consider it? >> we're not -- the report -- and i'm not sure where it came from because it's not anything sa i si saw that they were contemplating a vat. we have stood up to this bipartisan fiscal commission. >> would he ever consider -- >> he's going to consider what comes out of that. >> if they recommend a vat, he would consider it? >> i'm not going to get into a linguistic game about it. >> there was a president for eight years who said no new taxes. they're not going to raise taxes. this president said no taxes on the middle class. arguably there is a bill that will hit the middle class, the health care law, rather. that would be a big change in america. would he consider, if the commission recommends it, would he consider it? >> as you know, the president cut taxes for 95% of workers in the stimulus. many, many billions of dollars. >> yes, that's true. >> the president's committed to this bipartisan fiscal commission process. and he's going to seriously consider all the things that they put forward, and he's going to look at them. that doesn't mean that he's supporting vats. we haven't even contemplated that. >> but if they recommend that -- >> i'm not going to get into a hypothetical thing about it. he's committed to a bipartisan fiscal commission. >> i like it. >> he keeps pushing something, i just turn and ask him why he -- you want to go there -- >> i will hear about it when i get back. >> i just did it for you. summarize it, though, you have no working knowledge. >> i have no working knowledge. >> are you all in touch with the commission? >> you're setting it up so that he can't win. president obama has to consider what comes out of this commission. >> is there a consultation? or are there recommendations -- >> i'm not consulting with them as they're going along. >> i have a question for austan, mark halperin. what does the president plan to say when he visits new york tomorrow? >> the president -- i'm very happy you asked that, mika -- the president is coming back more than two years later to cooper union where, after bear stearns and before lehman, he gave an elaborate and still not -- a still pretty good message about the need for financial regulatory reform. he's going to come back. >> that's great news. >> and deliver that. >> i'm so pleased to hear that. oh, i was thinking maybe. >> austan, will you come back, please? >> yeah, anytime. i love you guys. >> all right. can't kick him from across the table. all right. austan, great job. still ahead on "morning joe," "washington post" columnist george will and "new york times" andrew ross sorkin. first, chuck todd with the headlines out of the white house. first, here's bill karins with a check of the forecast. >> we're still waiting for "discovery" to return hopefully to florida this morning. there's a no go because of rain showers. they're still lingering off the coast. they still have those. they're hoping to get it down at 9:08. if not this time, then it has to go to edwards air force base out in california. also, i found this webcamera. live pictures of the volcano out of iceland. still erupting this morning. very low visibility. ash in the air. as far as your forecast, airports are looking fine this morning. no problems, no delays. going to be a beautiful day from new york to d.c. all the way up through boston. the rest of the country, showers for you in atlanta this morning. and also a big storm on the west coast. anyone flying, you could see possible delays. you're watching "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. smart...you're staying at this resort for free? 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[ male announcer ] accumulate 10 nights. and get a night free. welcomerewards from hotels.com. smart. so smart. my subaru saved my life. i won't ever forget that. love. it's what makes a subaru, a subaru. the president came to washington talking about change and bipartisanship. and yet he chooses the most partisan figure as the guy he wants to back him up. >> i'm a fierce fighter for what i believe in. i'm a fierce fighter when the president lays out his agenda to get his agenda done. that doesn't mean i'm partisan. that means i'm very loyal to the set of ideas. >> all right. live look at the white house on this beautiful tuesday morning. joining us live from the white house right now, nbc news chief white house correspondent and political director, chuck todd. he's also cohost of msnbc's "the daily rundown." >> can i ask him about my great home state of florida which i love so much? >> sure. >> chuck todd, what's going on with charlie? something, you know -- >> something's in the air. >> something's in the air. >> i have an inkling. >> what's going on? >> reporter: well, it's now taken on a soap-opera quality. every day there's a new twist or a new way that charlie crist words whether he might -- you know, what is he doing today? he's listening to people, apparently making the case to him. >> he's on a listening tour. >> reporter: about running as an independent. what i don't understand is if this decision has been made -- and one would assume at this point, whatever he's going to do, he's made the decision, and now he's got to figure out how to lay the groundwork for it to sort of justify the decision. he doesn't seem to me, if the decision is running as an independent, it doesn't seem to me he is figuring out how to forcefully make the case that somehow his party left him. he's his own man. this and that. it doesn't feel like it's the same sense of urgency with what chris is doing than, say, what joe lieberman did when he did it. and something seems to be amiss there. >> there's something going on. i'm telling you, there's something we don't know about that's going on behind the scenes. >> reporter: i think there's two other options on the table. one is completely dropping out, and the other is running for re-election as governor. >> or something else? >> reporter: that wouldn't shock me. >> or something else could happen. >> reporter: what would be the "or something else"? i mean, i don't know if there's an "or something else." >> maybe -- i don't know. >> i don't know. how's rubio's campaign doing? >> reporter: well, they're sitting back and watching this. >> he's canceled a lot of events, right? >> reporter: well, he canceled some. i think he had a sick relative. i think his father had fallen ill. but now he's raking in establishment endorsements. he's now, by the way, the establishment candidate. he can no longer call himself an insurgent. mitt romney's down there. i think eric cantor's going to endorse him. he's obviously now the lone republican nominee pretty soon. >> that's a fascinating dynamic. a lot going on there. a lot going on there. a lot going on. >> i don't think we've seen the last twist and turn in this race. >> do you have a question for chuck todd on this issue? >> chuck, all these establishment candidates getting behind rubio, does that risk hurting him with rank-and-file voters on the conservative side? >> reporter: i doubt it really does at some point, but it really depends on what does the fall look like? look, i could make an argument that in a three-way race, if crist is running as an independent, then suddenly kenneth meek, the likely democratic nominee, has a clearer path, has an easier path to 36%. if you believe that 35% or 36% is the winning number in a three-way race, well, i tell you, he's got the easier path to 35% or 36% than rubio and crist since the two of them are sort of going after the same independent vote. meek doesn't have to do it at all. rubio both has to cater -- i think it really complicates things. at the end of the day, i assume charlie crist, if he runs as an independent, ends up finishing third. i think it's hard if you don't have a base to do this. how does he raise money? that's a whole another story. he'll stay in two or three weeks -- that's what i wonder. >> that's what i wonder, too. first of all, you can just take that option off the board, charlie quitting and going home. >> no, he's not going to do that. >> reporter: i agree with that. >> charlie ain't going anywhere. >> reporter: correct. >> he's got a lot of money. i really have, i've been thinking all along, there just may be something out there. charlie is too calm. >> yeah. >> right now. i know charlie. >> willie, do you have a question? >> he may be holding four aces for all we know. >> chuck, i want to ask you about something. we were watching closely rahm emanuel on "charlie rose." were you taken aback by his d k declaration that he wants to be mayor of chicago? >> reporter: no, he has made that clear. he has said it publicly before, that someday he aspires to be mayor of chicago. i think everybody is hoping that somehow he gets to lead here by going to run for mayor of chicago. that there isn't this feeling that somehow he's got to leave with not his tail between his legs% then i think we could see, you know, from there, i think he would immediately move back to chicago and run if daley didn't run. >> okay. interesting day. chuck todd live at the white house, thank you very much. we'll be watching you and savannah on "the daily rundown" right after "morning joe." and coming up, a big victory in the fight against al qaeda in iraq. details next. and waiting on deck, "the new york times'" andrew ross sorkin. >> bigger. >> too big to fail. >> he is. >> keep it right here on "morning joe" brewed by starbucks. 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[ male announcer ] missing something? like 2 pairs of bifocals for $149.99 at sears optical, with progressive lenses for just $25 more per pair. hurry in to sears optical today and don't miss a thing. they made a lot of money, right? >> goldman sachs. >> $3.7 billion on this one deal, right? >> no, no, no, no, no. john paulson made that kind of money. actually, goldman sachs ended up losing money. that's their defense. they ended losing $90 million this put this thing together. >> so they're the victim. >> that's what they're saying. >> doesn't everybody owe them an apology? >> that's what -- that's what lord blankfein would tell you. >> that's good. >> with us now, "new york times" business columnist and our good friend -- >> yes. >> -- andrew ross sorkin. he's the author of "too big to fail." >> it's an amazing book. >> we are team sorkin. and on capitol hill, taking paul krugman's side -- i'm joking, senator -- republican senator from tennessee and member of the banking committee, senator bob corker. hey, bob, we're sorry to draw you into this battle at "the new york times" right now. >> don't draw him in. >> andrew ross sorkin and paul krugman and we're on team sorkin. let me ask you first, though, about the senate finance regulatory bill that's being debated. does this bill actually put into law for the first time the concept of too big to fail? does it ensure future bailouts, as mitch mcconnell suggests? >> there are some loopholes in the bill, no question. but generally speaking, the central elements of the bill absolutely do the opposite. mark warner and i drafted the language. as a matter of fact, i know the president's going to wall street later this week to act like he's being tough on wall street which is a laughable moment. i mean, this bill is anything but tough on wall street. as a matter of fact, i'm sure they'll be hoisting him on their shoulders after this bill passes. the only thing in this bill that is tough is what mark warner and i drafted as far as making sure there's orderly liquidation if one of these firms fails. and the administration has tried to weaken that. i don't agree with those assessments. the fact is there are some loopholes that the administration put into this legislation that weakened what mark and i have drafted. i hope to tighten that before it passes. >> senator, give us some examples. obviously, what you're saying is completely opposite of what's being reported in the media. you actually think the president's being too easy on wall street? >> i don't -- name something in this bill that is tough on wall street. name one thing. let me ask you this. the wall street executive who has access to the fed window and has a government-sponsored insurance program for its deposits bankruptcies the firm, is he out any money personally? no. is there anything in this bill that makes wall street firms honor the reps and warranties they make to investors as it relates to mortgage-backed securities? no. is there anything in this bill that has anything to do with underwriting to make sure that in the first place good loans are written so that they're not spread across the universe and innocent bystanders are taking the brunt of that? no. so this bill is not -- there's nothing in this bill that's tough on wall street. to be out there acting like you're -- to act like this is tough on wall street bill is laughable. that's not what this bill is about. >> senator, let's go to "the new york times" andrew ross sorkin. >> bob, i have to tell you a very different tactic we've heard from republicans who have typically gone against this bill for other reasons. are you planning on trying to vote against this bill so you can propose a much harsher bill? >> there you go. >> because we haven't heard about this harsher bill if it exists. >> look, i've been talking from day one and almost every speech that i've given that this bill doesn't even address the underwriting standards for loans. it doesn't -- the investors that have these mortgage-backed securities have no way of making these wall street firms honor the reps and waerntd waernt war they make. >> i wouldn't dissuade you from any of those views. what i'm suggesting is is there a bill that you plan to propose that has teeth? >> i am trying to figure out a way to deal with underwriting. i would like to do some things to strengthen warranties fees. i definitely want to strengthen the resolution title that mark warner and i have written and make sure that the administration doesn't create loopholes there. but look. joe, you've been around here. you know that regulation -- what regulation does is help the big guys and hurt the small guys. okay? this derivatives piece, it doesn't hurt wall street. you've got to be kidding me. >> thank you for saying this. seriously. >> who owns the clearinghouses? the fact is that it's the end users. it's those guys out there in iowa, in kansas, and it's our community bankers across the country that we need to be concerned about with this regulation. when this bill passes, the only thing that's going to happen is the large firms that exist are going to get larger. so all i'm saying is, the hypocrisy of this administration -- >> but senator, why are we not hearing from other republicans, then, who are proposing a new bill that has all of these harsher and stronger standards that you're talking about? >> well, here's what i would say in response. i'm responding to the fact that the administration is trying to make this a bill about wall street. they're attacking wall street, and republicans are trying to defend wall street. that's just not true. the fact is, i do support the fact that we need to deal with derivatives in a different way. i want to see as many of them clears as possible. but to act like that's an attack on wall street, it's not. i want to make sure that we have a strong resolution title. it's not watered down like the administration has done. that probably is tough on wall street. but they're not thinking about failure. so it's not something that's front and center. but this whole debate to me, both sides of the aisle do not deserve a badge of honor. this has been a silly debate about silly things. and the fact is, i think it's time for us to get serious about a piece of legislation that does bring into place some transparency, but this is anything but an attack on wall street. private equity firms are left out. hedge funds are left out. so let's at least talk about this in a serious way. and the president -- >> senator -- i'm sorry, senator. "time's" mark halperin is with us. he's got a question. >> senator, i think we're all a bit confused. i just want to clarify. you're saying what's fundamentally wrong with the democrats' approach, the white house and senator dodd's approach, is far from being tough enough on wall street, that's what's fundamentally wrong with it? >> i'm saying that fundamentally, the debate about one side being for wall street and the other side being against wall street is fallacious. >> you're saying it's tougher on wall street and holding wall street accountable, is that what you're saying? >> i said i support a strong resolution title, one stronger than now exists, and we can make that happen. i support the derivatives title that's in there. let me say i support stronger derivatives action, and i think we're going to get there. i support consumer protection, but i do think that it is out of bounds. it doesn't hurt the wall street firms, by the way. >> okay. >> it affects the regional and community banks. and what i'm saying is that this is not a fight. this is not a fight about wall street. that is a fallacious argument. this is a fight about putting in place transparency for regulation -- this is not a bill that is against wall street and those people who oppose the provisions of it are for wall street. that's just a ridiculous argument. >> i don't disagree with that. i have a lot of questions about what they're putting on the table, and i think you're making some really excellent points of concern to everybody, especially the american taxpayer. but the question we're trying to ask you as well is do you support being tough on wall street? perhaps a tougher bill on wall street? >> let's say this bill -- let's say this bill dies. will you and mark warner get together and draft an even tougher bill? >> something that really protects us? >> well, i would certainly, certainly support strong underwriting standards. back in 1982, you couldn't write a loan to someone that didn't have at least a 90% loan to value. so yes, i would support that. i would support absolutely ensuring that investors have the ability to enforce the representations and warranties that these wall street firms make, absolutely. and i'd even experiment and support something that would give some kind of clawback ability if one of these major firms fails -- >> right. >> -- and all the -- everybody else is toast, that some of the earnings get plowed back in. yes, i would support that. i don't know exactly how to do that. i know in brazil that is done. >> okay. >> but yes, i would support some tougher standards. >> okay. >> but look, this bill is not -- let me say one more time, this bill is anything but tough on wall street. and that's not what this debate is about. >> we hear you. that's good. andrew ross sorkin has a question about goldman. by the way, they just posted their first quarter earnings. nearly doubled topping expectations at $3.3 billion. >> you can pay some lawyers with that money, andrew. >> that's good money. >> i wanted to ask the senator before he goes what his view of this case that the s.e.c. has brought and what we have now learned, which was that the s.e.c. commissioners who voted to pursue the case voted along party lines, two republicans against, two democrats for. of course, the chairwoman taking it up. >> okay. so look. i don't even know what societal benefit comes from a synthetic cdo, okay? i have to tell you, to create an instrument that you just bet one side against the other, i don't know what benefit to society that is. on the other hand, it is a little dubious that on the friday before a bill is going to be introduced, all of this occurs. i'm withholding judgment. i want to see actually what happens. there's been a lot of stories recently about the weak case. look, it doesn't read well. the timing is odd. but look. i go back to the premise. i don't know, what is the purpose of a synthetic cdo? i don't know what benefit to society that is. >> yeah. >> okay. >> does anybody around the table know? >> i was wondering about that. >> no, seriously. what do they do? i'll tell you what, senator corker, you're one of my favorites. and the reason why is during the 2006 campaign, i would actually wear baseball caps that would say "harold ford beat senator corker real, real bad" because harold's a friend of mine, even though senator corker is a good republican. but he was gracious to me. even after that. senator, you're a good man. and by the way, are you -- any truth to rumor that you're going to move in new york and try and run for senate up here? >> well, you know, tennessee's been great to me. i plan on zaing there. i appreciate you having me on. i hear the music. you all have a good day. >> all right, senator, very good. boy, you know what? we are finding some great voices in the new republican party. he's a great voice for the republican party. >> then we're going to get to donny deutsch coming up in a few minutes. but first, willie, what's next in the cooler. >> the president of the united states being heckled last night in california. we'll tell you why he was being heckled. and you'll hear his strong response when "morning joe" continues. b-a-c-c-a-l-a-u-r-e-a-t-e. baccalaureate. correct. 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[ male announcer ] wells fargo. with you when you're ready to move. right now, walmart has rolled back prices on top lawn care brands like poulan pro, brute by briggs & stratton, pennington, scotts and spectracide. along with thousands of others all over the store. it's rollback time! save money. live better. walmart. so, at national, i go right past the counter... and you get to choose any car in the aisle. choose any car? you cannot be serious! okay. seriously, you choose. go national. go like a pro. subway station. i'll be there later today. if anyone wants to meet me. till i get home. >> all right. sure. >> dirty mind. >> no. >> let's talk about president obama. he was at a fund-raiser last night for barbara boxer out in california giving his spiel about financial reform among many other things when he was interrupted by some hecklers screaming at him about don't ask, don't tell. >> fear and financial insecurity enter too many people's lives. >> quality for all. >> i'm sorry, do you want to come up here. you know, all right. because can i just say once again, barbara and i are supportive of repealing don't ask don't tell. so i don't know why you're hollering. >> there you go. president obama responding like a school teacher to the kids in the back of the class. the big story this morning though, the iphone. the next generation iphone leaked, well, it's apple so maybe it was on purpose. here's how the story goes. apple engineer, 27-year-old guy leaves new prototype for future iphone at a bar if redwood city, california. somebody picks it up, realizes it got -- they've got gold in their hands ses it to the web site gizmodo.com. they tear it part. and lies it and now the guy will probably be sent to one of steve jobs' sites. it's got cool new features including a glass back which will help deal with the reception problems that so many complained about. one industry analyst says there's no up with on the planet whose shoes i would less like to be in this morning than the guy who left the iphone. probably got a call from steve jobs. we'll be right back on "morning joe" with our good friend mr. donny deutsch. all that and more when "morning joe" comes right back. the amount of technology in today's cars is like something out of a spaceship. which is why, mechanics nowadays are more like rocket scientists. they have to be. the technicians at ford and lincoln mercury dealerships are highly trained. they really do know their stuff. and, they have all the parts to make sure the job gets done right. get the works - an oil change, tire rotation and more just $29.95 or less after $10 mail-in rebate. does this thing do email? you betcha. see, smart and friendly. ♪ >> if you want to help -- expected that republican leaders would have been willing to help out, cleaning up after this mess since they had more than a little to do with creating it. and yet, after driving our economy into the ditch, they decide to stand on the side of the road and watch us while we pulled it out of the ditch. they asked why haven't you pulled it out fast enough. i notice there's like a little scratch there on fender. why didn't you do something about that. >> okay. president obama a little bit of a mocking tone there. who is he talking about, mark halperin? >> the heckler? >> no, still with us this morning, mark halperin, business columnist andrew ross sorkin and joining the conversation, chairman of deutsch incorporated donny deutsch. >> your whole tone changed when you mentioned my name. they get this respect. >> i have my filth tone. >> introducing sorkin this morning and george will and corker and then, oh, my god, donny deutsch is coming on. >> he is hosting a series called "angry in america," and you can catch that right here on msnbc at 3:00. >> is that a cartoon? i think the cartoon's angry. >> it looks like he's wearing a suit. i should be a little more at least even keeled. >> i look forward to that. >> 3:00 all week this week. >> we'll watch. the president, i really thought senator corker's comments were interesting and i agree, the republicans, unless i don't know of something are not coming up with a stronger alternative. but what we're looking at doesn't end too big to fail, doesn't do it, does it. >> he was absolutely right. i think his comments across the board were correct. i wouldn't want to suggest disinjen use but i was very unclear about was here was a guy saying here are all the problems but he wasn't offering up a solution. >> imagine that, republicans say here are the problems. >> frankly what he's going to get criticized for is creating smoke and mirrors why the republicans are against to this as opposed to really proposing a solution which is what we need. >> the frank lund's beating drum has been oh, my god the $50 billion fund that's really helping the bailout which we all know is a liquidation fund. this is a brand-new talking point which i found kind of bizarre. he wouldn't answer the question. >> i didn't know donny deutsch was here. >> why do i get the oh, my god? >> because we love you. because we're that comfortable with. >> you okay. >> we're talking about mr. corker and where did that come from all of a sudden. that was kind of bizarre survey thought it was an interesting interview. put your mike on. >> let's do the news. >> if you could just clip that on, that would be good. >> i like the cartoon, by the way. >> i shouldn't have been happy. >> angry in america. starring charlie brown. >> and lucy. all right. let's get to our top story because we have the general i believe standing by. >> that's great. >> al qaeda in iraq has suffered wa could be a major setback after u.s. and iraqi forces killed two top figures during a raid in a remote corner of the anbar province. >> their deaths are potentially devastating blows to al qaeda iraq. but equally important in my view is this action demonstrates the improved security strength, and capacity of iraqi security forces. >> all right. let's get right now to baghdad with the commander of the u.s. armed forces in iraq, general ray odierno. general, thanks very much for joining us. i guess we should say congratulations for your success is what the vice president saying though, is there more to it, that the iraqis might be standing up on their own a bit here? >> yeah, i think there is a lot more to it. first off, it is fairly significant. the leader of al qaeda in iraq, the foreign leader abu al masri, the egyptian and abu omar al baghdadi, were both killed. that is significant. what made it more important was the cooperation between u.s. forces, between the iraqis, their intelligence collection, their ability to conduct this operation with our support. that's what we've been working towards here. so this is an indicator of their increased capability. >> general, we've heard it's one of the most, if not the most significant blows against al qaeda in iraq since we first got over there. you would rank this as significant as the killing of zarqawi? >> i do. obvious obviously, he was zarqawi's deputy and in charge since 2005. i believe it is as significant if not more so because of where we are now in this fight. because of where we are and the fact that al qaeda has already been degraded and now that we've been able to cut the head off at least for now, i think is pretty significant. >> mark halperin of "time" magazine is here. >> update for the american people, how many american troops are there in iraq now? how many will there be by the end of this year, and what is the core of the american mission in the country right now? >> well, thank you very much. right now, we have 95,000 here in iraq. we are going to go down to about 50,000 by the first of september. and what we've done here is we've slowly transitioned from a counter ip urgency to stability operations. and what we will do under stability operations, we'll train, advise, assist and continue to equip the iraqi security forces. we'll provide assistance to the remaining embassy reconstruction teams, the united nations, other nongovernmental organizations to build civil capacity, and we'll continue to do partnered counter-terrorism operations with the government of iraq. >> general, obviously, a few weeks ago, "newsweek" had a front page, a cover story suggesting victory in iraq at long last. of course, that drew a lot of the skepticism around here, but we have made remarkable progress in that country since the darkest days of 2005 and 2006. i say we, we as americans, you specifically the men and women who serve so ably in one of the toughest of situation taz we could send our soldiers and marines into right now. other than the just the greatness of our american troops and marines, what's caused the turn around? the significant turn around over the past three, four years? what are they going to be teaching at west point a decade from now? >> well, i would just say that the turn around is that now, as a military, we understand that our mission really is much broader than just military operations. it's the fact that you have to understand the entire environment around you. you have to understand the complexity of this world. we live in a very complex world today, and that's reflected, unfortunately in, some of the things we have to do. we have to understand the economic environment. we have to understand the political environment. we have to understand the culture, and you have to use all of that understanding in order to what i say understand why something is happening. and once you understand why something is happening, then you can really come up with a solution of how to fix it. and i think we've gotten better that the over time here, understanding the why and coming up with the appropriate solution to fix the problem, and i think that's what we've learned over time here. >> general, if president obama asked you, did george bush's surge of american troops into iraq work, what would you say? >> well, it has. the bottom line is, you know, everybody knows the end of 2006 we were heading towards a civil war here in iraq. and there was not much else we could do, and i know at the time, it was a difficult decision. in fact, i'm the one who had to make the recommendation here. i made the rem dhags we should do a surge of forces. none of us at the time thought we would probably be as successful as it's been from a military perspective, but it has enabled us now to better protect the population. it bought us more time to continue to train and advise iraqi security forces. and with the initial forces on the ground, not only did it allow to us do more of our work, our combat work, it gave us more troops on the ground to build iraqi security force capability. and because of that, it has evolved more quickly than i think we thought it would. that's why we've gotten to where we are today. the other point is that the people of iraq have stood up against al qaeda and the insurgency. >> yes, they have. >> and decided they don't want any part of it and they want to move forward. that's a real important point. >> general odierno live from baghdad, best of luck to you, sir. thank you. >> thank you so much for your leadership. we have great respect for you. we appreciate you being with us this morning. it's been a remarkable turn around in iraq. you go back to february of 2006 when the golden mosque in sue mara was blown up and sectarian violence tore that country apart. now we get to a point where we have to ask the general because we're in afghanistan now. we've moved on to afghanistan where i'm surprised by i think significant news on the troop levels coming down to 50,000, surprised because it's just not on the front burner on anybody's mind. >> it's on the radar of the white house because when the president goes into the midterm elections if i can inject american politics into this, military success story, one of the things he's going to be able to say as an accomplishment is ironically building off of george bush's surge that under his leadership, america's troop presence in iraq is going to be down to 50,000. that's going to be a shock to a lot of americans. >> under obama, 14 of the top 22 terrorists, the worst terrorists taken out. as you said the troop withdrawal, and yet the republicans are focused on these changing language from fundamentalist, islamic fundamentalists to violent extremists and that's a big problem. they're still trying to badge him soft where as a commander in chief, give him an a plus here. >> we'll have this debate later on. do i think is the president's done quite a few things right when it comes to foreign policy. >> we have george will coming up, too. >> i've got to say also if i'm running against a democrat ta tells me how great the president's been in iraq and he talks about what the surge has let us do, i get his quotes and joe biden's quotes saying the surge has been an abject failure. time to bring the troops home. >> thank god you're here and not running for office. >> if the president can campaign and say we're down to 50,000 troops in iraq, good news. andrew, the financial reform bill, where are we? and where are we going to end up? >> i think we are moving steadily forward. i think we could have something by june. larry summers is suggesting is june now instead of memorial y day. it's going that way. as senator corker said there's a real issue whether this thing has teeth. there's a lot of pushback.goldman sachs is pushing back even though they're under fire on this derivative piece which has become the center of the storm. >> the "wall street journal" and "new york times" reporting merrill lynch also has a target on their back. >> i think b of a has a target on their back. related to the s.e.c. you're saying? >> right. >> deutsche banc, others, citi. there were other banks out there that were doing things like this. the real question is, was this illegal. was the disclosure not there. and the defense that the banks are giving is, we showed you all the cards in the deck. you got to see every card you wanted in the deck if you invested in this security. the only thing we didn't tell you is who constructed the deck. >> a little detail. just tiny little one that the guy who does not work for goldman who runs a hedge fund was the guy shorting. that's a little left out. >> there's two pieces to this. one is at the time, the defense that goldman would give you is nobody knew who paulson was. in fact, some people thought he was a silly hedge fund investors losing money shorting all this stuff. but everyone did get to see what was in the deck. the question is, just knowing what the deck was as opposed to who made it. >> what's so fascinating reading all these stories on the goldman story is seeing the different people in the banks, the two or three people in the banks who even in late 2005 were saying we're headed for catastrophe. look who we have coming up next. >> i want to ask you about the timing of the case. "the washington post's" george will will be on the set of "morning joe." also, will charlie crist leave the republican party in his bid for the u.s. senate? for the latest, let's go into the politico playbook coming up next. first fill cairns with a quick check on the forecast. >> we just learned that the shuttle is on its way home. they have now fired up the rockets and going to be landing at the kennedy space center at 9:08 this morning. they have to go in now to the kennedy space center. the rain has started to diminish off the coast. that's why things will be just fine for that landing. other airports looking just fine today. a little bit of wet weather in atlanta. beautiful conditions from the great lakes through new england. enjoy a fantastic tuesday. if you're waking up with us early on the west coast, heavy rain from san francisco to sacramento all the way up i-5. otherwise, middle of the country looking nice today. stormy weather for you in the days ahead. you're watching "morning joe" on this tuesday, brewed by starbucks. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 i thought investment firms were there tdd# 1-800-345-2550 to help with my investments. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 if i could change one thing... tdd# 1-800-345-2550 we'd all get a ton of great advice tdd# 1-800-345-2550 just for being a client. tdd# 1-800-345-2550 i mean, shouldn't i be able to talk about my money tdd# 1-800-345-2550 without it costing me a fortune? 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>> i just softly congratulate myself. >> very good. joining us now, pulitzer prize winning columnist and avid cubs fan george will joining us here. a new edition of his number one best seller "men at work, the craft of baseball." we're going to talk about that later in the roundtable. welcome to the show. good to see you. >> glad to be with you. >> we congratulate you softly, as well. >> good. >> i like this piece that you wrote. we'll talk about that. >> i want to talk about it now. do we have to go to mike allen? >> no. >> i mean, i like you, mike allen. >> we have charlie crist up and mike allen. >> we're going to bring this back in in a second. mike, i love you. i want to talk about george will's book. obviously a lot of -- a lot going on in the state of florida right now. charlie crist trying to figure out what he wants to be when he grows up. do you have any insights? i'm talking to you, mike allen. >> okay. sorry, i thought you were talking to mr. will. i'm not going to interrupt mr. will. as you predicted we have dita to confirm joe's instincts. you said in a three-way race with governor crist running as an independent in florida, that charlie crist would either be the favorite or you couldn't call it. sure enough. now there's a quinnipiac poll that shows exactly that, that he would be within the margin of error or even so between now and april 30th, the deadline to decide look for charlie crist, governor of florida, to back away from the republican primary and say that he's going to run as an independent. now, his big problem is going to be money. some of his biggest donors, all of his big donors are tried and true republicans, people whose support for republican party goes way back before him. he has to find a way to replace him. >> he's raised $7 million. he's got enough money to run statewide. the question is though, when charlie leaves the party, do the some of ta support leave him and go to rubio? >> a lot of it. as you've pointed out, there's a big middle in florida. being the tea party candidate, being the far right candidate is not the place to be this year. that's not right for the times. so it's great in a republican primary and marco rubio has pulled off an astounding upset by knocking off the incumbent governor, a big favorite but now he's going to have to do an gres i be push to that middle in order to pull some of those away from crist. >> mike allen, thank you so much. thank you for the deference that you showed to george will. five seconds of silence. we never have that on the show. we appreciate it. so mr. will, obviously things are getting interesting in florida. what's your take on park corubio? he's identified with the terry parties. does that hurt him in a general election. >> no, i think the tea parties have identified with marco rubio. i think if the movement didn't exist, exactly what played out would have played. there are about 14 million republicans in florida. that means he needed 550,000 votes to win. he was going to win, period. what he has been saying all long has now been validated by his opponent crist. he's been saying crist isn't a real republican. we got that cleared up. if crist wants to be senator, wait two years. lose honorably to marco rubio. then run against nelson two years from now and you have a good chance of going to the senate. this way he'll never be a senator i think. >> it was stunning last week though, charlie crist retoeing the education reform bill that i think was his one-way ticket out of the republican party for good. >> there be offending the most popular politician in the state of florida, jeb bush, who's made education reform the centerpiece of his career guaranteeing i assume that jeb bush would official little do what a lot of his people are already doing, which is supporting marco rubio. >> you wrote, we just had as you ten goulsbee in here suggesting he knew nothing, nothing about a vat tax and halperin suggested maybe he's not invited to all of the meetings. is that a concern? you wrote about it in your column? should americans be concerned that washington, d.c. is coming at them with yet another tax? >> the v.a.t. tax is the politicians' delight because it's invisible. no one notices it paying it at the cash register. to one files a return. therefore it's stealthy and can be increased in imperceptible increments. every point you add to it brings in the government another $100 billion. it's their delight. the problem is as "the wall street journal" says in an editorial this morning, bipartisanship broke out the other day when the senate voted 8 ol to something -- mccape's sense of the senate resolution they don't want a vat tax. the theory has been the 18-member commission on deficit reduction would recommend a v.a.t. tax there be giving the president cover for breaking his pledge that no one's tax of any sort would be raised on any individual under $200,000 or a household income of $250,000. the problem is, nothing recommendation from this 18-person commission goes to congress without 14 votes. that means two of the republicans, two of the six republicans have to vote for a v.a.t. tax. which one of those is going to? i don't believe it. >> yeah. so, our friend, brother buchanan, pat buchanan, somehow worked with ronald reagan for several years and never got the sunny optimism. he is one of -- you look at his books, the decline of the west, that's one of the more cheery titles. but buchanan thinks the end is near. i actually see a conservative revival coming up over the next generation simply because we're out of money because americans are right of center. because even democrats in california will re-bell after they start realizing they're paying more than 50 cents of every dollar in taxes. am i overly optimistic? >> you're right. the democrats are in a knockdown dragout battle not with the republicans. the democrats are fighting arithmetic. next year in 2011, the federal government has to borrow $2 trillion. that's trillion. to roll over existing debt and to finance new debt. and the arithmetic will take care of this. pat should take a lesson from winston churchill who loved our country as much as he loved his american mother. he said the american people invariably do the right thing after they have exhausted all the alternatives. we're in the process of exhausting alternatives now. >> it's a combination of that and was it bismarck that says scott god has a special providence for fools, drunkards and the united states of america. we somehow find our way. >> what is the will formula for reducing the deficit and the debt? >> serious entitlement reform. change the indexation of benefits on social security from wages back to inflation. half the. >> you do that on social security. you and the president could probably strike that deal in 20 minutes. what about medicare? who should take a hit there? >> the affluent elderly. the welfare state exists to transfer wealth from the working young to the elderly. 40% of the people who voted in 2008 were over 40 years old. the politics of gerontolgy is a fact of life. someone has to stand up to the retiring baby boomer. every day 10,000 more baby boomers go on medicare and social security rolls. >> republicans criticize the health care law because they said it cut too much from the elderly on medicare. >> that was imapplausable. >> demagoguery. >> even if you cut the costs, the arithmetic gets you this. >> these are the very people, the young, the high school students, the prep students that are going to be. >> i have to capitalize my own retirement. >> i understand that. >> i get the joke. but the larger issue is even if you reduce these costs, you still can't get there. you're going to have to raise some revenue somehow. the question then is how do you do that part. >> i agree with that. if we could start fresh, if we would wipe away all the tax system in this country, i would start with a value added tax. we consume too much, save too little. tax consumption but don't do it on top of this baroque income tax system and this pointless corporate tax system and all the other rent seeking that goes on in the name of revenue raising. >> some democrats would suggest to you the v.a.t. is a bad idea because it actually hits the lower classes the most. >> have you heard larry summers on the v.a.t.? >> he says republicans hate the v.a.t. because they think it's a money machine and democrats hate it because they say it's regress i be. we will get a v.a.t. when republicans realize it's a regress i be and democrats realize it's a money machine. >> much more ahead with george will including a look inside his new book "men at work." coming up next, a big morning of earnings before the bell, including goldman sachs. the latest from erin burnett live at the new york stock exchange. and don't forget, you can always listen to "morning joe" live on satellite radio sirius 90, xm 120. we'll be right back. [ female announcer ] it's rollback time at walmart. right now, walmart has rolled back prices on top lawn care brands like poulan pro, brute by briggs & stratton, pennington, scotts and spectracide. along with thousands of others all over the store. it's rollback time! save money. live better. walmart. you need listerine® whitening® vibrant white™ rinse. the mouthwash that gets teeth four times whiter than the leading toothpaste. and kills bad breath germs. listerine® whitening vibrant white™. communities. industry. energy. her. this. lives. how ? by bringing together... information. ... people ... ... machines ... ... systems ... ideas... verizon helps businesses worldwide... including fortune 500 companies... find and achieve... better. better. better. better. eyjafjallajokull is the name of the volcano. >> the eyjafjallajokull volcano. >> the eyjafjallajokull. >> the eyjafjallajokull i think. >> eye afyat-la-jo-kul. >> eyjafjallajokull. >> fiddle faddal banana ram ma show no signs of baiting. >> you know, i think i'll just stick with volcano in iceland and we'll go with that. >> all right. let's get a kek of business before the bell with erin burnett live at the fork stock exchange. erin, is the other shoe going to drop on merrill lynch and what other banks have targets on their back right now? >> oh, let's see. they all do i guess. what's interesting in this whole goldman sachs situation is that in this market that they were playing fast and loose in, according to the s.e.c., they were not necessarily the leader. so if the s.e.c. has a case, even if goldman settles it for you know, doesn't take it to court but settles, that would mean we could see this going across wall street, which is sort of an interesting thing. if you think back, remember the whole analyst research thing? henry blodgett famously wrote let's put lipstick on this pig talking about a stock as he was simultaneously recommending it to retail investors? and that ended up spreading across wall street. so this could be something similar to that when all is said and done although it's still unclear and i have to say, it's shaping up for great, great theater. because goldman didn't come out and say they were sorry. we although they haven't said that about anything. they didn't say remotely we disagree with the s.e.c. no. no, no, no. point blank, they are completely incorrect. we're going to fight it. this is going to be a good fight. >> the earnings report came out looking pretty darn good also. >> yep. >> their stock's not doing too badly considering. >> no, you know, that is the way goldman sees the world. they'll look at it as how are our results and our market share. given the heat and the anger against goldman sachs since the beginning ever since they got the biggest payment out of aig, right, some might say that's already hurt their reputation but in their bottom line, have you not, which is maybe part of the reason they continue to be rather arrogant about all of these issues that have struck them because they haven't lost market share. they knocked it it out of the park in terms of numbers this morning. so did jpmorgan and citigroup. all the banks are doing rather well. goldman had a very good quarter. in terms of how much money they're supposed to keep on hand for a rainy day, they are keeping way more than anyone would recommend. so is citigroup. there las been real improvement on that front. >> you mentioned arrogance.call me crazy but i believe there are moments in time where the zeitgeist calls for the parade to pass a bit, drexler mill kin were get too long big for their britches and the government figured out a way to say huh-uh, game over. but the government doesn't lose. to me the hubris and arrogance of goldman to not say hey, we want to be part of the change and dig in, boy, those are some ignorant folks smart folks, but ignorant in this area. >> there's this point about arrogance and a atlantic humility goes all the way back. you remember this whole aig moment when everybody got paid out from aig and goldman made the point when they got the t.a.r.p. money, if the system failed we would have been fine. of course, they won't have fine. maybe they would have been the last to fall but fall they would have. they never acknowledge that had. >> i'm with erin. that's the key moment. >> so i think that's part of the reason when you say why does the s.e.c. pick goldman as opposed to someone bigger in this market. that's part of the reason they picked goldman now although talking to experts, even people who are sort of ardent goldman dislikers post think this case will settle and goldman will unlikely lose in court. but we'll see. it's still you in the early phase. >> you should setting quick. i'm not sure the s.e.c. wants to settle given how they approached this from the get-go. >> what a courtroom it would be. have a good day, everybody. >> thanks a lot. >> donny deutsch. thank you so much for coming. >> sweet thing. >> just to sit at the table with george will and andrew ross sorkin, sandwiched between these intellectuals, i'm like the spam in the middle of intellectual white bread. >> not going to debate that point. quickly, which team are you on? are you on sorkin's team? you can't be on both. >> i'm always on sorkin's. >> i've got a tank top that says team sorkin. coming up, is baseball still america's pasttime or is football taking over that title? we'll ask columnist george will. take a look inside his new book next on "morning joe." >> this is the best-selling book on baseball. ah! silver one. that's not a volkswagen. ♪ [ tires screech ] ♪ [ sighs ] that's two for doubting. [ chuckles ] you hit like my sister. really? i'd like to meet her. [ male announcer ] the volkswagen cc. award-winning design for just $299 a month. it's a whole new volkswagen. and a whole new game. ♪ ♪ >> goldman sachs is accused of selling mortgage-backed securities that were essentially set up to lose money. allegedly, the deals were put together in part by a hedge fund tycoon hoofs betting against them. >> what's the problem? there's nothing illegal about selling customers a product designed to fail. the chicago cubs do it every year. >> oh, that was really -- do you see? >> pulitzer prize winning columnist and cubs fan george will is here with his new edition of his number one best seller "men at work, the craft of baseball," which is by the way, andrew and i were talking about it before the best selling book on baseball of all time. >> ever. >> more than. >> that's impressive. it's very interesting, this book obviously was a cultural phenomenon in the 1990s. why did you circle back around and write a new introduction to it and put it out in paper book? >> it was still in print 20 years later which is unusual for a book. one of the four characters in the book, tony la russa is still managing this time the cardinals. it still finds a market i found. i wrote the book because i wanted to know what was going on out there, and it turns out rather a lot that isn't apparent to the naked eye. i needed a docent to baseball. >> like what? people that followed baseball year in and year out what, are they going to learn about the game that you learned? >> every adjustment that's made pitch by pitch by batteries, by infielders depending on the pitch that's called depending on runners on pace, depending on who's coming up next, depending on the situation in the game has the coach in the dugout done that, that's the signal for a no doubles defense, play deep, give up a single, don't give up an extra base hit. things like that. >> it's a chess board, constantly moving and thousands of variables. >> it's as though everyone on the field were connect bid elastic and when one moves they all move. >> george, where is the place of baseball today as compared to where it was when you wrote the book originally? we hear so much about nfl ratings, nascar perhaps surpassing baseball even. where does it fit in our society now? >> there was a time when baseball had the undivided attention of the country from april till michigan played ohio state. today there's six weeks between the last nba championship game and the first nfl pre-season game. the competition for the sports dollar, for the time on sports center, all the rest is more intense. in spite of this baseball continues to set attendance records. you've got 22 new ballparks i think, 22 have come on stream since bud selig became acting commissioner in 1992. revenue sharing has helped produce much more competitive balance in baseball, really judging by who wins is the world series and who wins the super bowl, there's better competitive balance in baseball than football. >> do you think the on field game has changed? >> somewhat. >> besides the steroids. >> the steroids -- there is a steroids pren thesis in baseball history that i think has been closed now than distorted the record book. >> what are the years, 2002 to. >> i'd say back to '98, mid '90s until now. and now it's been closed. as a result, baseball's becoming younger and much more athletic. also, important here is the fact that they've taken the amphetamines out of baseball. that's what kept the old guys pumping along in august. they're gone. you can't do that anymore. >> that's interesting. >> you talked about the competitive balance being better in baseball than football. that's kind of counter intuitive to what we hear. we hear it's about the yankees and red sox and teams with big payrolls. i can name you 15 teams that have no chance of winning the world series in spring training. are we getting -- or ten. a handful. are we really getting better than we were? >> i was thinking about the rays a couple of years. >> the marlins a few years back. >> yankees spend the decades of the towels demonstrating the declining utility of the last $80 million. you can only have nine on the field at the same time. you can have the two best shortstops in baseball and one of them's going to waste. and all the money in the world can't overcome dumpness in spending it. so you can take someone like billy bean in oakland or terry ryan in minnesota, small market teams, maximizing the value of their assets. that's what money ball, it's a business prop. it's how do you price an asset. >> with regard to money ball, the game has changed because of that book and because of bill james and other saber matritions. what do you think about the impact of that? some people say it kind of saps the joy and row man thety six of baseball and makes it about numbers, numbers. >> no, it's still played on the field but numbers matter. baseball 1400 innings a year for a team, 162 games per team generates an enormous sediment of numbers and they add up and tell you things. at the end of the day, they tell you only so much. the ball still has funny bounces. people get hurt. so there's a lot you can't quantify. >> when i was growing up, i collected baseball cards. there was a great series of world series baseball cards and being the dork that i am, i could tell you everybody that was in every world series from 1903 to 1975. have wee we lost instinct? are kids with the steroids and with players movement, because i was an atlanta braves fan. and i had hank aaron to follow. i didn't have to work about hank aaron leaving next year after hitting 44 home runs. and i just stayed with him. i struggled with him through the '70s. have we lost something over the past 10, 15, 20 years which stopped kids like me just basically staying in their room studying these numbers? >> some kid growing up a braves fan has grown up with chipper jones his entire life. the padres had tony gwynn his entire career. so that happens. but people don't really follow the particular year's roster. they're loyal to the team, the ballpark, the radio voice. it's a complicated relationship. and it really hasn't been destroyed by free agency. what will fans have lost is a certain stability, but that's the price you pay of the players gaining something called the basic right to negotiate your terms of employment of the employer of your choice. >> egad. >> who knew. >> where the hell did that come from. i liked it better in the old days. so you look back at so many things that have happened and i wonder, you were talking about steroids. i'm wondering how i could have been so naive when i'm watching mark mcgwire with muscles out to here and sammy sosa with neck muscles out to here. >> you thought if you went to the gym you could get that too. >> we sat there and believed. i could say the thing about my beloved red sox who i've been following since 1975, now it is very obvious a couple of months into this season, that david ortiz had a few really great years in 2003 and 2004. and one of the most magical moments in all of sports, the sox coming back from a 3-0 deficit was because of david ortiz. was he on steroids when he was doing ta? >> i don't know. and i don't want it say that but you can go to the gym all you want and you won't have happen to you what happened to barry bonds. barry bonds hat size increased from 7 1/4 to 7 1/2. his shoe size increased from 10 1/2 to 13. that's human growth hormone, sports fans. that was the testimony of the giants' equipment manager and the balco stuff in california. >> does he get into the hall of fame? >> no. >> any of those guys, roger clemens? >> i don't think clemens gets in. you're going to have the leading home run hitter, probably the dominant pitcher of his era not in the hall of fame. i don't vote on it, but those who do get a ballot and it says you're supposed to consider not just the numbers they put up, but certain integrity of competition and they fail. >> one of the guys when i was growing up and i was so lucky i grew up in the '70s, some of the greatest baseball players ever, but one of the best, a guy i hated because he was in the nl west with my braves, pete rose. hated him then. i look back and i absolutely worship his work ethic now. when is pete rose going to get in the hall of fame? >> i don't think he's getting he walked in and out of clubhouses always past a bulletin board on which in bold print it said the price is permanent disqualification are baseball if you gamble on the game. gabl bling is baseball's scarlet sin because of the 1919 black some of scandal. he lied for a long time. and if he had come out earlier, he might -- the american bottomless reservoir of forgiveness might have kicked in. >> it's too late now? >> baseball would either have to say he didn't do it. now he says he did it or it didn't matter. it mattered. so baseball can't do it. >> so baseball is making the right decision? >> i think so. you don't want to moralize the hall of fame undue little. >> final quell. >> come on. >> will you invite on this week bart at some point and give him absolution? >> get him out of the witness protection program. >> give the guy a break. >> poor guy. >> george will, thank you so much. your book "men at work the craft of baseball," come back and talk politics. >> the best selling baseball book of all time and now is a great time to go back. >> there's no new additions, i think a new introduction as well and out in paper book. we'll be right back. stay with us. 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