and not russia, interfered in the 2016 election. isn't that correct? >> that's right. >> and mr. giuliani told the reporter that his trip was not about official u.s. foreign policy. and that the information he sought would be very, very helpful to his client. meaning it would be helpful to president trump, is that correct? >> yes. it's not official foreign policy, it would beal helpful t president trump's personal interests. >> that's correct. and there is no doubt, mr. goldman, that investigations of the bidens and the 2016 election meddling were, in fact, not about u.s. policy. but were about benefitting trump's re-election, correct? >> yes, and even the ukrainians realize that. >> and on july 25th, president trump placed that fateful phone call to president zelensky. and he asked president zelensky to investigate the bidens, correct? >> yes.