witnesses, you and i have actually met. >> i want to bring in barrett burger, a former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst, and charlie savage, washington correspondent for "the new york times" and also an msnbc contributor. you can make jokes about it, and maybe there were probably people in the audience, including his daughter, who thought that stuff was pretty funny. having said that, the judge's ruling on don mcgahn was scathing. when you say we don't have a king here, right, the president is not a king, we don't know where this court fight will end. we know it's continuing, already several moves have been made, but having said that, is this an indication to you that the president sort of stonewall defense, delay, delay, delay may be failing, or is this something that could indeed drag on well into 2020 and he'll have the last laugh? >> well, it's a great question.