From the courthouse. That is precisely the argument that the state was making. This animation, thomas, the judge called the hearing at 8 30 and we thought it would twa 30 minutes but after two hours the judge finally decided she wanted to bring the jury back in and this is an issue she thinks she can decide on later. The state indicated its going to take them another 45 minutes to make the counterargument. This animation, by the way, it purports to show essentially what happened that night by using a variety of things. Among them, police reports, audio calls. Many of those calls we have heard throughout the testimony, and daniel shu he took some infrared photographers but all of those things were going to be combined to create this elaborate animation. Initially the state objected. They wanted it edited even after the edited after it was roofed down to still photographs but the state decided we want to throw it out. The gentleman on the stand right now, dr. Vincent di marx maio. He is the defenses first witness of the day. Craig melvin reporting outside the courthouse in sanford and we will take you inside the courthouse now. This is the forensic pathologist, the gunshot expert, dr. Di maio. 1981 when you began your work at the bexar county medical Examiners Office, were you able to work as a consultant privately in other cases outside bexar county . Yes, sir. What kind of work would you do in that regard . Mostly civil cases and then a few criminal cases. Outside bexar county, i could testify for the defense for prosecution. I did you dont do many private criminal cases, such as like what im doing now. Id run about, you know, two to four a year at the most. You have been working as a consultant since the beginning of 2007 then, if ive done the math correctly. Im sorry. Exclusively as a right, since january of 2007. In other words, youve been in private practice as a consultant since january of 2007 . Yes. And the majority of your work is in connection with civil cases . Yes, sir. Does that sometimes still include gunshot injuries, though . Yes. Usually, its cases, insurance cases involving alleged suicides, whether its a suicide or not. On occasion, youll get a case of accidental discharge to maybe a defect in the firearm. You mentioned that you were in the military. Did you do any research when you were in the military . Yes, sir. That is when i started my firearms research. We studied the mechanisms of firearms and review gunshot wound cases. We had with micro flash and high speed photography. You see pictures occasionally of a gun going off with a bullet in the air or something. That is the type of photography we did, but we we shoot to evaluate different types of ammunition and how effective it w was. When i was in charge of the wound list section i had what is called a wound list study and this is a study done in vietnam and photographs of individuals who had been injured or killed by different type weapons and there was an attempt to study the effectiveness of these studies. We had 50,000 35 millimeter slides with this. You mentioned micro photography and began to explain to the jury what a picture of a bullet leaving a gun would look like, is that right . Right perform its called micro flash and it is kind of like a flash you have on your camera and and this flash is very, very quick. You can take photographs of things like moving through the air, bullets going through the air, 2,000, 3,000 feet per second and you can just kind of freeze them when the flash goes off. Would you take a moment, please, and explain to the jury the mechanics of what happens when a bullet is fired from a gun in terms of what comes out of the gun and when . Okay. It debt nature and send of jets and flame through either one or two holes in the primer into the main body of the cartridge case innighting the gun powder. The gun powder then begins to burn. It doesnt explode, it burns. And its converted to gas and then the pressure will be gradual to build up. If the front of cartridge case, you have the bullet and that is kind of fixed in. So the pressure then begins to push against the bullet, to push it out of the cartridge case into the barrel, and then to be gripped by the rifling of the barrel and it takes a while. It has to build up. Now during this time, some gas will get around the bullet and will actually get in front of it. So now what you have is you have some of this gas in front of the bullet. Then you have the bullet. Then you have the bulk of the gas. Now, the barrel of the gun, of course, is filled with air. As the bullet goes down the barrel, it pushes the gas ahead of it and it pushes the air. Its kind of like, you know, a hydraulic system. The first thing you get out of the gun, if you do micro flash, youll see it, youll get a little powder of gas, not very big, and then pretty soon after that, you get the bulk of the gas. It looks like a mushroom lying on its side. Okay . And in that big gas cloud, there will be a bullet and there will be unburnt or burning grains of powder, so its gas, bullet, big gas cloud with big gas cloud with powder grains. All coming out in 245 order. Can the gas that comes out first, that is part of the firing process, combined the burning material, combined with the air thats in the barrel . Well, it will to a certain degree but that is mostly the larger cloud of gas. What happens is is its kind of like you have a column of gas and air being pushed straight ahead. So if you hold the gun against, say, like clothing, what happens is this column of gas and air tears a hole through the clothing and then the bullet gets to the clothing and then the gas with the soot gets to the clothing as well as the powder. And that material, if its in contact, all of the thing after the hole is made goes through the hole and comes you out the other side. If i heard you correctly then, fountain muzzle of the gun is against clothing, there will be a hole made in the clothing by the gas first . And the air, right. And the air. Followed by the bullet, and then followed by the soot or the burning powder behind it . The powder, right. And that is why blanks, people think blank cartridges are dangerous are not dangerous. You could kill yourself with them. If talk a gun with a blank cartridge and put it against your chest, the gas formed, will just tear right through your skin and muscle into your lung. We continue to watch the first witness of the defense today called to the stand is dr. Vincent di maio a gunshot expert and forensic pathologist. Lisa bloom has been watching the proceedings this morning. A lot of people are independence in the testimony this doctor will give and crucial warchs may recognize he has been in drew petersons murder trial and phil expe spectors murder trial. What is the weight he is bringing to the defense . He is absolutely the gunshot expert. He has written the book. He was a medical examiner who performed in many thousands of aups and has taken some heat for colorful statements he made in the high profile statements you referenced. Both of those defendants were convicted of murder, notwithstanding Vincent Di Maio testimony for the defense. Most defendants are convicted in american criminal courts but he is testifying about a very important point for George Zimmerman in this case and that is that the gunshot residue and the pattern of the bullet going through two shirts that Trayvon Martin was wearing and into his body, the defense says proves their theory that Trayvon Martin was on top angled over George Zimmerman. That is the import of the doctors testimony. Lisa bloom, stand by. We will take a break and back with much more on msnbc. For their family. Thats why i created the Honest Company. I was just a concerned mom, with a crazy dream. A wish that there was a company that i could rely on, that did all of the hard work for me. Im jessica alba, and the Honest Company was my dream. [ male announcer ] legalzoom has helped a million businesses successfully get started, including jessicas. Launch your dream at legalzoom today. Call us. Were here to help. Launch your dream at legalzoom today. 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We continue to watch the George Zimmerman trial this morning. The first witness for the defense still on the stand. Dr. Vincent di maio is testifying to the gun expertise. My first question to the doctor is how did he conduct his investigation because we know they are bringing him in to try to punch some hose and diminish the testimony that we saw last week from the prosecution where they laid out their evidence and they talked about what they did and how they discovered what they know. What i really expect to see today is having this expert, which is obviously well credentialed and talk about the process of this information and to challenge some of the results to give the jury some of those alternatives. This is a common thing when you see a battle of the experts like this, especially in a case like this where we dont have zimmerman taking the stand yet. So we are really talking and paying more attention to the experts to see what they have to say so we can determine who the jury is going to rely on before they start making a decision. The Crucial Point there, paul, is whether or not zimmerman will take the stand. Lisa bloom, earlier the msnbc analyst who is with us. The jury was not seated for the arguments going back and forth about whether or not the defense could submit this video animation of what they believed George Zimmermans version about him and the version of trayvon warrant. Jurors could see this highly produced video animation through George Zimmermans own eyes of what took place and his story brought to life on a televise screen. Something else i picked up on before the doctor testified, the judge had zimmerman stand and answer some questions along the lines of you understand that his testimony has been limited by your attorneys. Do you agree to that . Yes. Youve agreed to that freely and voluntarily . Yes. Now that is very unusual. Paul henderson can back me up. The defendant rises and acknowledges to the court that he is not going to testify, that he has made that decision freely and voluntarily. I suspect the limiting of dr. Di maio testimony has to do with the decision already made that George Zimmerman is not going to testify. Its just a guess but its an educated guess. Lisa is putting that to use. What do you think, paul, of the defense animation submission, the judge was listening to all of that. Again, it was only supposed to take 30 minutes and it went a lot longer than that. Court being delayed up until the first witness called in the last hour. The judge saying she is going to delay a ruling on that. How do you think the wind is going to blow on that one . I think the defense animation just confirmed some of the things that lisa was saying, the fact they have this animation and they are fighting so hard to get it in is more confirmation they dont want to put zimmerman on the stand. What i think is interesting how they they are going to authenticate that video and version of things without putting zimmerman on the stand if its just an authentication and how do they get it through to the jury . Obviously the prosecution is fighting very hard to keep that video out and they dont want this version and this interpretation presented to the jury and some of the things they will be raising are there are so many inconsistencies that they can lay out in the versions of the story that zimmerman has told in the past, what does this video represent . And at the end of the day, is that going to be misleading to the jury, which is all of the reason why they want to keep it out and really try to keep the pressure up for zimmerman if he wants to explain for him to get up on the stand to tell us what happened and i dont think that is likely to happen at this point, but that is why they are trying bring in this animation and one more reason of why, i think, they are not putting him on the stand. Lets go back inside. Paul and lisa, stand by. The defense is back to dr. Di maio. The materials that you received for review in this case and if you have notes reflecting some of that information that you want to refer to, youre welcome to do that. Copies have been provided to the state, but just feel free to use your notes, if you wish. Yes, sir. The material i reviewed were scene photos taken by the police and the medical examiner investigators. Photographers of mr. Zimmerman by the police and some civilians. The autopsy report, including toxicology and autopsy photos. The medical records of the ems and a clinic regarding mr. Zimmerman. A witness statement and a transcribed conversation given reply mr. John good. 911 calls and reenactment tape by mr. Zimmerman. Firearm arm examiner reports and the deposition of dr. Rowe. Lets what id like to talk with you about in terms of your findings well, let me ask you, first, you did have an opportunity to review the video recording of mr. Zimmerman in the sense reenacting the events immediately surrounding the shooting . Yes, sir. And youve had access to some witness statements . Yes, sir. Have you, to your knowledge, reviewed all of the witness statements . No, i have not because by the nature of this case, its more about determining whether the physical evidence is consistent with mr. Zimmermans account of what he says happened. Because the witness statements tend to be, in most cases, all around, you know, varied greatly. The easiest way to hear is evaluate the physical evidence that you have on the body ask the and the clothing and such and then compare it to the statements of the defendant in this case, in this case, mr. Zimmerman, and see whether they are consistent. If you say that the bullet came in the front, the bullet came in the back, obviously, they are inconsistent so that is what youre essentially doing in this case. And in doing that in this case, would you look at, in addition to what mr. Zimmerman said happened on the video reenactment, you would look at the forensic evidence which includes the pictures from the autopsy that might show the gunshot wound. Right. Would that include looking at the report from the firearms expert who analyzed the clothing . Thats correct. The two most important things in this case are the autopsy report, including the photographs of the wound, and the reports by the firearms examiner. Then when secondary you know, the scene photographs and such. But what youre looking at mostly is the autopsy and the very detailed excellent report by the firearms examiner. So would your analysis include, for example, trying to reach an opinion as to the distance between the end of the barrel and the skin . Yes, sir. Would it also include trying to reach an opinion from the end of the barrel to the clothing . Yes, sir. Trying to reach an opinion what effect, if any, the clothing may have had in the appearance of the wound on the skin . Such things as that . Yes, sir. We will talk about some of those details in a moment. But some of the things that i would also like to talk with you about today is your opinion of how long Trayvon Martin may have been alive, and also how long Trayvon Martin may have been conscious, if those are different opinions. They are different opinions because you can be alive and unconscious, so right. They are two separate things. We will talk about that more. I also want to ask you some questions about the injuries that mr. Zimmerman sustained that are reflected in the photographs taken by the Sanford Police department. Did you have access to those photographs and a chance to review them . Yes, i did. Ill also want to talk with you a little about the injuries that you observed through photographs or through reviewing the autopsy sustained by Trayvon Martin, in addition to the gunshot wound itself. So, generally, that is the framework of what id like you to talk about today, and lets, more specifically, talk about the gunshot itself and the mechanics involved in that. I know youve already touched upon mechanics of what happens when a bullet is fired from a gun, when you talked about the micro photography and that puff of gas, followed by the bullet, followed by the rest of the gas is essentially the sequence . Yes, sir. So lets talk about the evidence in this case. Would you describe for the jury what you saw when you looked at the photographs of the clothing that mr. Martin had and the photographs of the wound to his skin and the gunshot or the tattoos that was referenced in the autopsy report . Can you put all that together for us . Yes, sir. The photographs show contact discharge of a weapon against the clothing. This, i agree 100 with the firearms examiner, that it the of discharge, the gun was against the clothing. The gas came out, tore the clothing. Is there a defect and there is tears from it. There is a positive soot all around it. And so what you know is that the muzzle was in contact with the clothing at the time of discharge. And, again, this is what the firearms examiner said and did, i believe, some experiments proving that. When you look at the wound in the chest, theres a different picture. The wound in the chest was about an inch to the left of the midline and half an inch below the level of nipples and what you had was a circular punched out wound which is an entrance, but it lay in an area of powder tattoos measuring two inches by two inches. Powder tattoos are marks on the skin due to powder brains that come out the muzzle of the gun. They are not powder burns. People use the term powder burns but it means a whole bunch of different things. This is very specific. When the powder grain comes out of the barrel and the barrel is close enough to the body, that grain of powder hits the skin and produces a mark and a reaction, a reddish colored reaction, and these marks are called powder tattoo marks. Some people call them use other terms, but powder tattoo marks. They use the term stiffling but i prefer powder tattoo marks. And this indicates that a grain of powder has hit the skin and the person was alive at the time. You do not get true powder tattoo mix tattoo marks on dead people. There was a Distribution America two inches by two inches and certain density in these tattoo marks, and this indicated that the gun was not against the skin, it was not a half inch away. It was more than an inch. And based upon the concentration of the marks and the size of a pattern, its my opinion that the muzzle of the gun in this case was two to four inches away from the skin. So the barrel of the gun was against the clothing, the muzzle of the gun was against the clothing, but the clothing itself had to be two to four inches away from the body. At the time mr. Martin was shot. Dr. Di maio, im going to show you what is marked at states exhibit 96, which is a photograph taken at the medical Examiners Office showing the entrance wound. It may take a minute to warm this up so if i might approach the witness and perhaps you could point out what youre saying to the jury. Yes, sir. If you look, what you see is the hole produced by the bullet and that is essentially a punched out type entrance and then all around the entrance, you see these little marks. Almost like flea bites or ant bites. Not fire ants but regular ants. Little bite marks all around. And these are powder tattoo marks. Because they are red and reddish brown, that indicates the person was alive. And if you notice, there is a variation to the density and there is a measurement of about two inches by two inches according to the autopsy report. This indicates, again, that he was alive at the time he was shot. And that the muzzle was not in contact, but had to be back. The first time you see powder tattoo marks is when the muzzle is a half inch away. Less than half an inch, you dont see tattoo marks. As you begin to move the barrel away, the area of tattooing begins to get bigger and bigger and bigger. Then as it increases in range, your density will decrease. This is a fairly heavy density so you know its, you know, less than six inches and such. And the density decreases until finally the tattoo marks disappear. This is powder and most probably flattened ball and it would disappear from bare skin at about three feet. But by the size, the density, this is close, somewhere between two and four inches. Your opinion as to the distance is based upon your training and research . Yeah. Ive done a lot of research in powder tattooing and whether you can make valid judgments as to range, that is, what firearms examiners will do they will use usually heavy white paper and they will fire the gun and they get a hole and then they get marks around it and then by the size of the pattern, the density, they will give an opinion as to the range. Well, this has been used for 75, 80 years to make judgments, but the problem was does it really reflect what happens on the skin . And i got curious about that so i decided to make a determination and i did experiments and you have to use living animals to do it. Based on the experiments, i found, yes, its valid. To determine the size of the pattern by shooting against, like, white paper is valid out to at least 18 inches. So i got interested in there. Then i did determinations of powder tattooing from handguns and rifles and shotguns and how far it extends and how different types of powder makes such a determination. This is a ball powder variant, so actually is there a lot more grains in a cartridge loaded with powder ball powder so you have a pattern and because of the configuration of the grains of powder, they actually go out further. I know its ball powder because the firearm examiner states that in her report. Dr. Di maio, the exhibit you just published to the jury is now on the screen. The detail may not be as good as on the photograph itself but that is evidence. The jury can review later. This is what you described as the two inch by two inch tattooing pattern . Yes, sir. Is that what helps you be more precise about the distance than just the halfinch where you said it cant be less than half an inch or beyond 18 inches or several feet where you know the powder would have dropped off . Right. The thing is that if its less than half an inch, you would see a hole surrounded by dense soot and you would not see individual powder tattoo marks. Powder tattoo marks begin at about, in the metric system about half an inch and the pattern gets broader and broader. How does the pattern get broader as the density increases . Its kind of like with a hose when you have that spray coming out, you know, the cone shape . The farther you get from the end of the hose, the bigger the spray pattern. And so its like that. But, of course, what happens is just like the hose, after a while, the water droplets just fall off and you can spray so far. Well, its the same thing with the powder. After a certain distance, it loses its velocity and just falls away. Would the clothing its not its not disputed in this case that the there was clothing in between the end of the muzzle and the skin. In fact, we have the shirt here in the courtroom, if it would assist in your system with the jury, but the question what effect, if any, would the clothing being in between have on the appearance of the wound itself on the skin . In this case, none, because the clothing was not between the powder and the skin at the time of discharge. Because there was a hole there produced by the gas and the bullet, so dont forget, the powder is behind the bullet. So the gas tears from the cloth and the bullet makes sure is there a hole there. Then the powder comes through there. Now if you had the gun will say six inches away from the clothing, the clothing, youll have just a little hole. The clothing will filter out the powder to a degree. But in this case, the clothing didnt filter out the powder because the clothing wasnt there. You had a hole there. And you had the muzzle against the body and so everything coming out the muzzle was going through the hole. If the muzzle of the gun had been pressed into Trayvon Martins chest, even with the clothing in between, what would you see differently than what you see here . You would see a hole like that and it would be surrounded by a halo of black soot, and maybe on the skin, a grain or two of powder. But you wouldnt see powder tattooing because what the clothe do, is tsgurs the soot. The powder would be inside the body. From a medical examiners standpoint with your training and experience, literally having written the book, is this a hard call for you . No. This is this is basically, you know, 101. Lets talk for a moment, if we might, about the trajectory of the bullet itself. Having reviewed the medical examiners report, included the photographs, i take it that were available of the internal examination . No, there werent photographs of the internal examination. There was an xray, you know, which is actually better as organs shift around. Lets talk about the well, reference the xray, if you wish, thats in evidence too. Right. Somewhere in this stack. But also that you know the path of the bullet through the right ventricle and into the lower left lung. Right. Well, what the autopsy describes im sorry, the lower right lung. What the autopsy describes is a bullet hole in the left chest, as i said, an inch to the left of the midline. It goes through the what is called the fifth decostal space. Between your ribs, you have spaces. The fifth decostal space is a space between your fifth rib and sixth rib. It went through there. And then it hit the sac surrounding the heart and went through the right ventricle of the heart, in and out, and then it went into the right lung. When you look at the xray, you can see the lead core of the bullet in sort of the center and then you see the jacket fragments on the right side of the chest. So the bullet really went from the deceiveds front to his back and from his left to his right, because it went into right lung. It started out on the left side. Meaning there must have been, based upon your review of the description of the autopsy, must have been at least a slight lefttoright trajectory . Yes. Theres some. I cant really kwan tabut the b was going from mr. Martins left to his right. I wanted to point that out, that lefttoright, meaning from mr. Martins left to toward mr. Martins right . That is correct. There is a standard way of describing wounds. When you describe wounds and when you talk lefttoright, up and down, youre talking from the deceiveds vup. We are listening to dr. Vincent di maio, the defense gunshot expert and forensic pathologist and giving information on the wound of Trayvon Martin, the entrance of the bullet and confirming that the muzzle of the gun was against Trayvon Martins clothing and ruffle 4 to 2 inches away from his body. We are back with much more after this. Frica. 2004. Vietnam in 1972. [ all ] fort benning, georgia in 1999. [ male announcer ] usaa Auto Insurance is often handed down from generation to generation. Because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaas commitment to serve military members, veterans, and their families is without equal. Begin your legacy, get an Auto Insurance quote. Usaa. We know what it means to serve. [ herbie ] eh, hold on brent, whats this . Mmmm, nice car. Theres no doubt, thats definitely gonna throw him off. Shes seen it too. Oh this could be trouble. [ sentra lock noise ] oh man. Gotta think fast, herbie. Back pedal, back pedal. 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Resoft would be great, but we really just need kidproof. Softsprings got both, let me show you. Right over here. Here, feel this. Wow, thats nice. Wow. The soft carpets have never been this durable. You know i think well take it. Get kidfriendly toughness and feetfriendly softness, without walking all over your budget. He didnt tell us it would do this. More saving. More doing. Thats the power of the home depot. Right now, get wholehome installation for just 37 bucks. A friend under water is something completely different. I met a turtle friend today. Avo whatever youre looking for, expedia has more ways to help you find yours. Does your dog food have . 18 percent . 20 . New purina one true instinct has 30. Active dogs crave nutrientdense food. So we made purina one true instinct. Learn more at purinaone. Com the First Defense witness today is dr. Vincent di maio is a gunshot expert testifying about how the bullet entered Trayvon Martins body. The fatal shot that took his life. That the responding officers found an unopened can of a beverage in the front pouch of mr. Martins hooded sweatshirt. This is in evidence as exhibit 148, an unopened 23ounce can of a fruit beverage. Yes, sir. Do you find those facts consistent with what you saw, as well as consistent with what mr. Zimmerman said happened . This would tend to reinforce, because the reason that the clothing, as you bend forward, the clothing falls away from the body, is gravity. Now, if you have wet clothing, clothing is heavier and there is going to be a greater tendency to fall and if you have something in the front pulling the shirt down as you lean over, again, it tends to pull away from the body. So so the wound itself by the gap, by the powder tattoo iing the face of contact of the clothing indicates indicates that this is consistent with mr. Zimmermans account that he that mr. Martin was over him leaning forward at the time he was shot. Lets shift gears for a moment and talk about Trayvon Martins the mechanics of the effect on Trayvon Martin receiving that shot in terms of how long you believed he would have survived and how long within that time you believe he may have been conscious and, further, what, if anything, he could do voluntarily during the he was conscious, whether he could talk or move or be physically active. Do you follow me . Yes. There are three questions that youve brought up. Number one is the ability to move. That is determined by the amount of oxygen in your brain for which you have a reserve of 10 to 15 seconds. So even if i, right now, reached across and put my hand through your chest and grabbed your heart and ripped it out, you could stand there and talk to me for 10 to 15 seconds or walk over to me, because the thing that is controlling your movement and ability to speak is the brain and that has a reserve supply of 10 to 15 seconds. Now, thats minimum. That assumes no blood is going to the brain. If you get some more blood going to the brain, that could be longer, okay . Its going to depend on Blood Pressure and how severely youre wounded. The other thing i know the other thing is getting implicated and not being simple some people get shot and immediately collapsed. Some people get shot and dont even know they have been shot so they can function. What im saying is minimum is 10 to 15 seconds. Thats a given. Okay . Now, how long can your heart beat . Because im using for time of death, cardiac, not brain. Thats not relevant here. Okay. Cardiac. In this case, you have a through and through hole of the right ventricle and then you have at least one hole, if not two, into the right lung. So youre losing blood and every time the heart contracts, it pumps blood out two holes in the ventricle and at least one hole in the lung. So youre losing blood. If you engage in a struggle, which is what was supposed to have happened, your heart rate increases. Mr. Martin was a healthy young man. If he is involved in a struggle, you expect his heart to be going, beating especially after he gets shot more than a hundred times a minute. You know, healthy people, 120 in a struggle is not sno big deal. Now, remember, every time the heart beats, out comes the blood. Now, if he loses say he is only beat ago hundred which is relatively slow. If he loses 15 if he loses okay, we got the three things. Say he loses a tablespoon of blood every time the heart beats, which is, you know, you got two big holes in the heart. So if you lose that, a tablespoon, thats not that much blood. That is 1515 ccs. The heart is beating a hundred. You are losing 1,500 ccs in in a minute. That minute. Thats about a quarter of his blood supply. And a second minute, if you can assume the same rate, actually the heart would probably be beating faster for the second minute, hes going to lose another 1,500. That means hes lost more than 50 of his blood supply. Very suddenly. Its not just the loss of blood. At that point hes got hes not pumping any sufficient blood to the heart to the brain or anywhere else, and hes reached the point where hes going to die. So assuming these conditions, in all probability nothing is 100 hes going to be dead within one to three minutes after being shot in this case. Now all im talking about is heart effectively pumping blood. You could still get some electrical activity, but youre not pumping. Now this is in all probability. So how long was he conscious . Significantly shorter than the time necessary to die because you wouldnt have sufficient oxygen getting to the brain. I cant tell you exactly how long he could be conscious. I could tell you a minimum, 10 to 15, unless psychologically he just blacks out. So thats the best you could give in estimates. Doctor, in your training and experience and research, are you familiar with incidents where individuals received a similar, or even more serious injury than you you see that Trayvon Martin sustained and could still talk, move, do voluntary actions for that 10 to 15 seconds. Oh, yes. Best case i had speaking like a forensic pathologist is an individual shot in the chest with a 12gauge shotgun at pointblank range. His heart was completely shredded. He turned around and then ran around 65, 75 feet before he collapsed. Does the does the fact of being shot in the heart itself mean anything other than it has an accelerated loss of blood, and that it will quickly deplete the oxygen to the brain because of the loss of circulating blood. No. It doesnt cause the same kind of physical response as being shot in the head, for example . Right. Right. Its that some of the s. W. A. T. Teams if they want to immobilize somebody immediately, what you have to do is you have to shoot them in the head. They know it. From what i understand you to say, then for at least 10 to 15 seconds after mr. Are mmartin sustained the shot, he would have been capable of talking and of voluntary movement. He could, right. Some people just lose consciousness immediately. Its psychological, its not physical. But he has the potential for 10 to 15 seconds minimum. Which could include then moving his arms from an outstretched position to underneath his body objection. Leading question. Sustained. Could that include moving his arms from an outreached position to underneath his body during that 10 to 15 seconds . Yes. At the time that one loses consciousness, i take it they then lose the ability for voluntary movement . Oh, yeah. Once youre unconscious, you dont have voluntary movement. You would not be feeling pain. Thats correct. Lets talk for a moment about the injury to Trayvon Martins knuckle. Do you remember there being in the photographs any discussion in the autopsy an abrasion on the left hand, fourth finger . Right. Onequarter by oneeighth of an inch abrasion spread. Do you agree with dr. Bao that thats an abrasion type injury . It appears to be. Is that consistent with having come in contact with a hard surface or impacting some other surface . Its consistent with with impacting a hard surface. Would concrete qualify . Concrete could qualify, yes. Listening to the testimony here of dr. Vincent dimaio, called by the defense, a gunshot expert, forensic pathologist, testifying to the fact that Trayvon Martin after being shot could have stayed alive for one to three minutes, but thats it after that fatal shot that tore holes in the right ventricle and in his lungs. Were back with with much more of this testimony after this now with alex wagner after a quick break. Games here at the hutchison household. 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The defense in the George Zimmerman trial continued outlining its case this morning by calling a forensic pathologist to analyze the gunshot that killed Trayvon Martin. George zimmerman has pleaded not guilty to Second Degree murder and claims selfdefense. Dr. Vincent dimaio is the 13th witness for the defense and testified that while he believes the gun was in contact with martins clothing at the time of the shot, he said that clothing