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reward their friend. over the past week republicans in washington and wisconsin have tried to cut programs for the poor, killed big labor and perhaps slammed the door on government itself. the same thing happened when republicans game roaring in after world war ii and of course in the middle of the clinton administration. first wisconsin. where thousands have gathered for days. the debate is not just about the current budget deficit. the unions have agreed to make concessions on benefits and pensions. it's also about governor scott walker's attempt to bust the public employees union out there the union that posed his election last move to. unions are making a stand to widely paraphrase frank sinatra if republicans can break unions in wisconsin they can break them anywhere. in washington republicans passed deep cuts in primarily programs for the poor. what they are doing is inviting another government shutdown in the hopes that this time the public might be behind them. who wins if there is another government shutdown and who do you think loses? across the ocean the revolution in libya is spreading. capital city of tripoli is descending into chaos and reports that helicopter, war planes and african militia men are being used to crush the protesters. some ambassadors have resign and moammar gadhafi's whereabouts are unknown. leapt me finish tonight with what the battle in wisconsin is about. let's bring in wisconsin. let's begin there. we're joined by two state senators. tim carpenter is a democrat that fled the capital and the state. i want to start with tim carpenter. are you on the radio or the telephone. where censor. >> i'm actually here live on the tv camera. >> good. i can't see you. i know you are there. senator thanks for joining us. leapt me ask you about this. why do you think this fight is going on? what is this fight really about in your state? >> well, this is a historic right to stand up for working people in the state of wisconsin. we were the state, first state in the nation to have collective bargaining and for us to go back to the middle ages of treating workers is just absurd. >> you seem to be in a hotel room. i don't want to say where it is. who was the first person to tell you we got to get out of the state? >> by the way there is no god. you're wasting your time with that story -- >> well i don't remember who was the first one but all i can say is from my motel room i can see wisconsin. >> but you won't tell me who gave the idea to leave the state. of your own volition you came up with the idea i have to get out of the state so i don't get counted. >> well, it's been so dick tat r dictatorial with our governor. we can pass this bill to deal with the state's finances without this nonfiscal item in the budget that devastates worker's rights so we would be back tomorrow. no, it's fun being in bears land, i'm a packers fan and would like to settle this but the governor is stonewall walker. won't talk to any of us. and has a temper tantrum that he wants it his way or the highway. >> let me go to the republican. why does the governor pick on the unions that doesn't endorse him but give the firefighters and copps a free ride. why are they allowed to continue to negotiate collectively? >> well one more time you're completely uninformed. the unions have campaigned against republicans and state police have campaigned against republicans. governor walker is doing this out of financial necessity. and out of financial necessity the state with a $3 billion budget deficit has to do something. governor walker as well as the city's, counties and schools which all rely on state money can either lay people off or everybody take a mild reduction in take home pay. what myself with a mild reduction in take home pay is part of that. >> you said mild. once again i'm wildly wrong on the facts. you're telling me that there aren't local affiliates, there aren't local union organizations at the county level municipal level that didn't endorse your governor candidate when they ran. are you saying they didn't endorse him? >> i can think of two small locals. the vast majority, the wisconsin professional police association, the vast majority of fire men's union worked against walker in this campaign and to say otherwise is completely to mislead your listening audience. >> why is he singling them out for protection? >> well we need protection in case we have a situation like we did last week in which we had a raucous crowd. >> they will have collective bargaining rights but the other unions won't? >> that's right. i want to point out collective bargaining rights are very fiscally oriented. if you want to have an efficient school district and an efficient county and efficient city, if you want to pull your workers in a more efficient fashion you cannot every time have to go to the union. >> let's go to the other sena r senator. let's go the democratic senator. how long is this going to go on? how long can you stay in illinois collecting your pay as a member of the state senate out there and not report for duty, if you will, in the state capital? how long can you morally do this? can you do it forever? >> we'll do it as long as it's necessary that the governor and senators come to their sense. i'm deeblg with thousands of emails, contacting my constituents on my iphone. i'm in touch with my constituents and know exactly what's going on. i'm working probably ten times harder than the republicans were this past weekend. and i think the bottom line is we actually had a group, a law enforcement group that supported governor walker, one of the few of them to come out and reject the endorsement or take it back. so, it kind of tells you about the politics in the state of wisconsin. >> so senator carpenter is not right when he told me i was all wet in saying some of these municipal firefighting unions and police unions sworsed him. that's not the case? >> i'm sorry. >> senator carpenter. i'm sorry. i was wrong. he's denying he was favoring the unions that backed him? >> absolutely. >> the senator and governor has gone ahead and been leading a misinformation campaign. distorting facts a lot on issues and it's very frustrating. the governor has had endorsements pulled back from him because of his stance on a lot of issues. he sold people a bill of goods when he was running for election. >> okay. let me go back to the republican senator. is there going compromise of a couple of years duration where the unions get suspended in their total rights to bargain for a couple of years while you cool on this thing rather than permanently. is there a compromise or not. >> i want to point out we've already had a compromise. there was a compromise in which we heard the workers on last wednesday night and we changed this bill different than its original form. we have compromised. we cannot cave in all together. >> senator carpenter, unions want to bargain collectively and have given on other things. >> that's correct. that's absolutely correct. i could lead this interview right now, drive to wisconsin and vote on the bill. the governor says we need this fiscal bill to balance our budget to june 30th. this is nonfiscal policy that attacks working people in working conditions so i don't know what world senator grothman is living in button lie compromises they made is with themselves. governor walker will not talk to us. they have basically threatened us. everything imaginable. we're going to do everything possible to stand up for work people. >> so our viewers get the facts right. is that correct that one issue separating your two sides, the reason this is going on, you want to get rid of the union's right to negotiate over time, work rules, things like that? >> there are work rules that are very expensive to our cities and schools. and in this fiscal crisis we cannot continue to allow the cities and schools to have no authority over what they ask their employees to do. >> so that'sing the fight. we know where it stands. over work rules over time. other issues of collective bargaining. be the republicans will not allow the unions to don't have those rites to collective bargaining. the democrats are staying outside of the state, insist tringts of work towers collectively bargain for their work. thank you very much state senators tim car pen alternative glenn grothman. shut down showdown. republicans are pushing deep spending cuts, slashing programs for the poor. it may it please lead to another government shutdown. they will shut the doors on government. that didn't work too well for newt gingrich back in '95. this is reminding people of problems they had with newt the first go around. who wins and who loses this time around. are republicans about to overreach like newt did. you're watching "hardball" from the eye of newt only on msnbc. today is george washington birthday. you can call it president's day if you're bairg mattress. a new gallop poll rates which president is best. this is a memory quiz. at number seven the current guy in charge barack obama. number six franklin delano roosevelt. then george washington. john kennedy. number three bill clinton. and abraham lincoln at number two. greatest president in history is ronald reagan. keep in mind these are not historian rankings. should insist before anybody participates, please list the presidents and then fix best. don't go with the ones you can remember. like the movie of all time is the one i just went to. we'll be right back. ark in harlem, fund a local business in chicago, expand green energy initiatives in seattle. because when you're giving, lending and investing in more communities across the country, more opportunities happen. welcome back to "hardball". congress pulled an all nighter on friday night to pass a budget bill that would cut $60 billion in spending. it was a party line vote and the cuts themselves look like party line cuts. a lot of them are things that republicans thereof hate, planned parenthood, national endowment for tarts, expenses for the policy czars in the obama administration, the environmental protection agency and of course funding informationfor the implementation of the health care law. here's dick durbin and lindsey graham on "meet the press." >> if we end up shutting down the government that's an utter failure. >> the only way we'll shut the government down if our democratic colleagues insists on keeping our government large and unsustainable. >> those cuts affect also poor people. we're joined by howard fineman and the eugene robinson from "the washington post". both msnbc political analysts. here are the cuts in effect. this is important. eliminates family planning and reduce pell grants. quotes three quarters in food aid for poor pregnant women and women with small children. up gate sense of these cuts. howard it seems the cuts are brand name things that democrats like obama care about, like th czars that work in the white house. real cuts against people with real needs. >> i think some of the ones you mentioned at first were a lot of amendments put forth. basically anything that any listener to npr liked. >> that's right. >> the united nations renovation. everything. but the real guts of it, though, were the program cuts in the basic programs, health and human services, money for the poor. money for the whole social infrastructure that the federal government helps support because they are only dealing with six or seven months in the year these are really sharp cuts in all these basic programs. they didn't debate that but that's the core of what would happen. >> you again they went after some pell favorites out in the city as we call it san francisco the presidio trust. this is sort of your old man stuff. this whole fight what do you think about this fight and you being in d.c. all the time and covering it for the post. is this a fight that the republicans are almost guaranteed to lose because in the end they are the ones shutting the door on the government? >> you mean if there's actually a government shutdown. i'm not sure there's any guarantee on who wins and who loses. it's not written that this has to work out exactly like 1995. i think if there is a shutdown the democrats seem more flexible, more reasonable on these issues. the republicans are more d dogmatic. the democrats have a tougher story, more nuance story to tell. we care about the deficit but it's not time to do anything about it right now. we do not live in an age of nuance. so i'm not sure how this will come out. >> you're right. that might be the case. howard, the chris christie machine, all about cutting now. do i want now. even though we're still in a recession. is that still the action. find places to cut and do it now. >> yes. he was very smart in new jersey to go after some things that weren't done yet like that tunnel to manhattan, you know, that was a brilliant stroke on his part because people could understand that and also they wouldn't immediately suffer as a result it. but a couple of things here. first of all, on the down side for president obama and the democrats, john boehner is not newt gingrich. he's not the ego guy that newt was. newt managed to make it about him. boehner won't headache that mistake. i'm not sure that barack obama is quite as good as survivalist maneuvering, the hand to hand combat as bill clinton was back when newt was around. but on the other hand, there are those 87 or so tea party people in the house on the republican side and they are so ideologically driven that they might make the mistake of standing up and cheering if the government is shut down. if they do that then they are leaving themselves open for the same thing to say oh, we're not going pay the troops, you won get your social security check. look at these tea party people cheering the shut down of the government. >> good point. i want to go through the issues of things that would happen. no benefit checks for some veterans. no social security applications can come in. no new passports. no new unemployment staflts. no national parks and museums. i don't think they cut as many people. you start talking about checks. let's get back to the personality stuff. bill clinton was this big guy this almost teddy bear guy against this grinch and evil looking guy newt gingrich. it was easy to pick your nice guy against the villain. the time you have boehner he hates having to do this. he looks miserable. i guess a very cool president having a hard time expressing empathy. >> boehner can do cool too. he can do that vegas cool vibe that he gives off. it's not the quite unequal visual battle that we had in '95. it's a different era. people's concern of the deficit is a different magnitude than it was back then. if i had to guess, i would say this is probably favors the democrats if they go ahead and do it but i'm not at all sure. >> will we get a rodney dangerfield out of borne. he's like moving his neck around try to get that collar loosend up. he does some cuff flashing. is he going to look too slick. gene suggests he might come off as slick. >> politics is a game of comparison. we're comparing him with newt from '95. the thing that helps the democrats is the tea partiers will celebrate a shut down. in polling the american people think it's easy -- they say they want to cut the budget but they also don't want social programs touched. and they like to have a high regard for the american military, they love their social security checks. so they don't think that -- even though they talk a great game about being concerned about the deficit they really aren't willing to give up anything that they have so that if the government shuts down they are going to probably be more inclined to blame the republicans than the democrats i would think. >> everybody says cut the fat. i can see christie saying cut the fat. all this stuff about, you know, don't -- let's stop the safety regulations of the airlines. let's stop being so safe in the air. let's stop being so safe with our food and drugs. we can cut those guys out. isn't that when the public says wait a minute we need that stuff? >> the public does say that. the problem really comes from the republicans when you get into middle class programs. the things that middle class voters care about. i think unfortunately that it doesn't really go down to their discredit as much when you're just dealing with definitely needed programs for poor people. >> here's a thought. who announces that the government has shut down, howard? who makes the statement, you won't be getting your check. you were doing this analysis, this mechanical analysis a couple of days ago. the checks are not going out for social security. who puts out the word. i'm sorry when you go to your mail box or check your bank account it won't be there. my name is speaker borne, my name is president obama. >> no the administration will say that. i think. they are already saying. they are already putting out the word that, you know, if there's a shut down, the social security staff will not be able to do their work and there's a bunch of social security checks like millions of them, 10 million will go out a few days after the shutdown if there is one on march 4th. the administration will top of their chagrin and regret have to inform everybody that because of the recent unpleasantness here in washington we're unable, we wanted to send out your checks, we're all ready to send out your checks but they wouldn't leapt us. >> up said the senatmartest thi. >> gene, don't you agree howard's smart assessment if they get tv pictures which is the way people communicate still, people hoot and holler on the house floor when they shut down the government. the tea party people. gene? is howard genius. tell me howard is a genius. >> boner and cantor and tho' er cantor are aware. they will tell their people we need a message here. it's the president's fault. and a lot of that will be true. but i'm just saying that inherent leadership as people who distrust the federal government, you know there will be a certain almost impossible to hide glee among some of these people for the fact that they were able to stick a, you know, put a sting spokes of the wheel of government because that's what they are out to do to some extent to make a point. >> they've met with members of the rank-and-file to talk about the optics of a shutdown. >> i'm a little worried now, gene, because you make me think they may win fight with the shutdown. you made me think about this. it hurts. it hurts to think this hard. but you made me think hard. howard fineman predicting the future is tough. eugene robinson thank you. up next, donald rumsfeld stopped make being claims he knew to be true but he's repeating a familiar talk point about president obama. check out the side show coming up. you're watching "hardball" only on msnbc. 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>> no. i don't think there's data that supports that. he made a practice ever trying to apologize for america. >> some think that's why he got the nobel prize. >> he's not accomplished a thing when he got the nobel prize. it was given to him on hope. had to have been. there wasn't anything he had done. he had been in office 15 minutes. >> actually ironically and weirdly rumsfield is right. president obama won the nobel prize on hope. the committee awarded him on the price based on the promise of something different than eight years of george bush foreign policy that brought us that war in iraq. congresswoman michelle bachmann echoed rumsfield criticism. wait until you hear what she says to a conservative crowd. it's hard for me to threat. listen to her words. quote our peace prize-winning president is very busy bowing these days to kings. he is bending down to dictators and here's her words, he's brown nosing the elites that are in europe and babying the jihadists who are falling sharia compliant terrorism. who is writing this? next up northern exposure, a leaked unfinished manuscript from her top aide. palin isn't that interested in governing never was. the manu script opens with an account of palin sending bailey a message saying i hate this damn job. shortly before she resigned as governor of alaska halfway through thermometer. i don't think the ex-governor is running for anything based on all the evidence. for tonight's big number. gallop came down with a break down of states as red, blue or competitive. the bad news for democrats it's pretty bad. how few reliable blue states are there? 16. rough road ahead for democrats this cycle coming up in 2012. 16 fewer dyed in the wool blue states. up next deadly protests in libya where moammar gadhafi that bad guy has turned fighter jets on his own people, no surprise. what a bad leader so and in a last ditch effort to hold on power. gadhafi an unstable menace at best. for three hours a week, i'm a coach. but when i was diagnosed with prostate cancer... i needed a coach. our doctor was great, but with so many tough decisions i felt lost. unitedhealthcare offered us a specially trained rn who helped us weigh and understand all our options. for me cancer was as scary as a fastball is to some of these kids. but my coach had hit that pitch before. turning data into useful answers. we're 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. ♪ crossing borders with ease ♪ ♪ clearing customs' a breeze ♪ ♪ that's logistics ♪ ♪ a-di-os, cheerio, au revoir ♪ ♪ off it goes, that's logistics ♪ ♪ over seas, over land, on the web, on demand ♪ ♪ that's logistics ♪ ♪ operations worldwide, ups on your side ♪ ♪ that's logistics ♪ here's what's happening. a bus carrying more than two dozen teenagers bounced off a power pole and plunged down an embankment. emergency personnel are on the scene. there pair to be a handful of teens trapped inside. another winter storm moving into the west after slamming the midwest. hundreds ever flights have been cancelled after storm dumped up to a foot of fresh snow in the wisconsin, michigan and northern ohio. in north carolina the mother of zara baker has been charged in her death. there's no indication anyone was involved in the killing and dismembering of the 10-year-old girl. the markets are closed for president's day but oil price are spiking on all the unrest in the middle east. crude oil jumping more than $4. blockbuster agreed to be bought out by a group of investors. $290 million is the price tag. nuclear program let's take you back to "hardball". welcome back to "hardball". what may be the most fascinating story of our times the revolution sweeping the middle east has taken hold in libya where moammar gadhafi has unleashed a bloody crackdown. more than 200 protesters have been killed and the scene in the capital city of tripoli is deteriorating by thundershower. war planes have been firing on demonstrators at an remarkable break with their own government. nine diplomats have resign and called gadhafi to resign. his own diplomats are calling for him to quit. robin, i respect you so much. here's the question. gadhafi has hit me as a looney tune. he's looking at something up in the air all the time. there's something going up there. we thought saif gadhafi was a sane reformer. now 1:00 this morning has called on the people to stop protesting or else they will fire on them to the last bullet. it doesn't sound like a sane commentary from the son, the reformer. your thoughts. >> no. one of the things that's been a striking pattern of all the turmoil in the middle east is the fact that towards the end of the crises you finally see the emergence of either leader or a spokesman for the leader trying to talk about reform, talking about reconciliation, dealing with the grievances. but saif's speech last night was among the most incoherent we've seen region. he talked about a new national anthem, new flag. general reforms. it was a disjointed thing where he wagged his finger at his own population. it signaled how vulnerable this regime is. gadhafi has been in power 42 years longer than any of the other old leaders. and he's often been the most unstable. this is a man who is linked with the downing of pan am 103. he's been a thorn in the side of both his arab colleagues and african leaders and one leader in the region that many of his peers will welcome if he leaves. >> let me go to ahmed on this. how does he stand among the arab leaders. does he still got street credit if you will after all this 40 years of rule? >> well, as robin said just a little while ago, he's a pain in the neck of many of his arab counterparts and african counterparts and i think he's stayed that way until the last minute and he continues to be. what's amazing about the speech by his son all of a sudden a lot of people are wondering who is this guy, who is saif. saif is part of the problem. one of the reasons why libyans are protesting now is they do not want saif to inherit power from his father. what does his father do? he sends the son out. >> that seems to be the reason why, what might be the final straw on the donkeys back. unless you move now when the guy is old and the skipped hasn't taken over you won't break this chain. is that what's going on in this country and perhaps happened in egypt beforehand? >> i think the son emerging from all this and given the number of casualties that are being reported given the number of dead that have been reported over the last few days, it seems to me that gadhafi and his son, his sons i should say because he has more than one. they have very little space to maneuver now. the speech yesterday set it off. it reminded me of mario cuomo saying you campaign in verse and you govern in prose. what the speech did yesterday, especially given all the prose that was written by those young egyptians in tahrir square that was such a contrast because the speech yesterday was written in blood. >> let me go back to robin. we had a terrible history with this guy. we tie him in many of us to the gulf of sidra incident, to lockerbie. he's willing to call someone up kill some civilians. we had the berlin disco incident. most americans think of him as a guy who came in from the koshlgsd cut the deal to get back in the oil business. >> in part. after all he faced stringent economic sanctions and this is an economy that depends very largely on oil exports. he needed the international community and so he in the end made compromises. but he didn't change his practices domestically. he did with his dealings with the international community by cooperating on exchange of information or intelligence on terrorists and extremist moments in the region by giving up his weapons of mass destruction programs. but at homes he was at ruthless as always. this has been the enormous gap and real challenge for the international community. how do you deal with a guy. how do you justify dealing with a man who is so pressive of his own people and who is trying to create a dynasty. one of the messages out of all of these upheavals we're seeing a transition not just from one man to a new government but from elites that dominated for thousands of years. >> it seems a couple of things have happened here that never happened before. you got a whole bunch of ambassadors calling for his resignation. you have resignation from the gadhafi ambassador. i assume hand picked to china, to india, all resigned. you got two colonels who went to malta and defected who were pilots. this is the kind of stuff as it makes its way around the islamic air waves what will people say this says about gadhafi that his own people he's invested faith in are walking on him? >> i think when gadhafi was engaged in direct confrontation with the united states which the attack under reagan, he had a lot of support in the arab world. >> yes. >> but i think since then his support has receded and more recently more people in the arab and islamic world have come to see him as a -- figure. given the shock toll we've heard coming out of libya, the shockwaves is going far and wide in the arab world and the muslim world and even if he survives and i think it's a big if, even if he survives i think the lead cloud over what he's done to his own people will hang over his head for a long time to come not just inside libya but also in the arab and muslim worlds. >> i'm so impressed by the fact that al qaeda hates democracy. because that means we should like it. just a thought. your thought. >> well i think one of the things that's so striking about the upheavals we've seen if they have not only discredited autocratic leaders but discredited extremists. they used peaceful civil disobedience and while al qaeda leaders have been hiding along the border of pakistan and afghanistan for a decade it took 18 days for civil disobedience to bring down public. we're seeing this theme being repeated across the region. al qaeda seems more outdated in both its goals and tactics than ever. it seems the east is moving at the speed of the west politically even faster than west. these changes are so much faster than we're used to even in our part of the world. thank you so much. up next, hour will bill clinton -- how did he win when republicans wanted to shut down the government. he came out ahead. there he is chuckling. you get your enemy to chuckle while you destroy him. that's pretty good politics. we'll talk how clinton did it. barack obama may not be able to do it against a guy who is different in personality. he's not has hatable as that guy. this is "hardball" only on msnbc. across the country when the economy tumbled, jpmorgan chase set up new offices to work one-on-one with homeowners. since 2009, we've helped over 200,000 americans keep their homes. and we're reaching out to small businesses too, increasing our lending commitment this year to $10 billion and giving businesses the opportunity to ask for a second review if they feel their loan should have been approved. this is how recoveries happen. everyone doing their part. this is the way forward. we'll be right back with more. we'll talk about bill clinton and how he handled the incredible fight over the government shutdown back in '95 and how he came out ahead to the point he got a big re-election out of it. we'll be right back in a minute. phone can go from my pocket to taking a picture in seconds. what up, dave! i just point, shoot, and post to facebook. so instead of fumbling to open my camera app like dave here, i can put my phone away, and open my parachute. open yours, dave! hey, is it cool if i date emily when you're... ...nevermind. vo: less fumbling, more capturing. new windows phone. get yours at at&t. you struggle to control your blood sugar. you exercise and eat right, but your blood sugar may still be high, and you need extra help. ask your doctor about onglyza, a once daily medicine used with diet and exercise to control high blood sugar in adults with type 2 diabetes. adding onglyza to your current oral medicine may help reduce after meal blood sugar spikes and may help reduce high morning blood sugar. 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[ male announcer ] ask your doctor about adding onglyza. extra help. extra control. you may be eligible to pay $10 a month with the onglyza value card program. to pay $10 a month with everyone has someone to go heart healthy for. who's your someone? campbell's healthy request can help. low cholesterol, zero grams trans fat, and a healthy level of sodium. it's amazing what soup can do. we're back. the big documentary bill clinton "president of the world" airs tonight. i can't wait. 10:00 eastern right here on msnbc. our biggest production yet. what can be learned from the clinton presidency in the mean time. a lot. over that big budget battle he had in '95. could we see another government shutdown in two weeks. i'm joined by two experts deedee myers. somehow bill clinton who we honor tonight, we put the focus on. there's a lot of honor in this documentary, it seems he had a style that was able to work a newt gingrich. newt is a grinch type of person, he's nasty, tough. clinton is a big lover of people. he seemed to put his arm around newt and take him down in that government shutdown. how did he do it? >> i think one of the things that a lot of republican leaders in clinton's adversaries at that time was don't get in a room awlo alone with him. speaker gingrich thought he would be immune to clinton's charms and he wasn't. clinton really was interested in working with the republicans in doing get something done deal with the budget situation but he was also going to try to outplay him and he did. >> and your thoughts, after running that great biography. you call him the great survivor. we thought the democrat would take the hit. somehow he made the republicans government spending. and somehow he made the republicans pay for it. >> if i could go back to 1995, before the shutdown, it was not obvious. head into the shutdown, it wasn't obvious. it was only in real time once the polling started to come in after the shutdown began that it became obvious. this was a very, very dramatic moment. clinton had spent the better part of 1995 gradually moving in the direction of republicans saying yes, i too agree with a balanced budget. but it was only in the fall where he said uh i agree with a balanced budget, but it wasn't until the showdown came. just because it worked that way last time doesn't mean it works that way this time. >> but that's the very point i'm getting to. it seemed like the president are trying to replicate what happened in the '90s. you work back and forth, until the other sides starts to push harder and you say okay, we agree to some of those cuts. they go down as the ones that cut the budget and pay the price. >> that's what both sides are trying to do. trying to position themselves as the reasonable ones and the other side is intransgent. but i think john makes a very good point, it wasn't clear at all going in into '95 and throughout most of the days and weeks leading up to it who would win. i think democrats -- i don't think it's just the white house. it's democrats on the hill who sort of think -- we'll just get the republicans to shut the government down and that's how we'll win this battle. i think that's the point you're trying to make. you have to position yourself so it looks like it's the other side's fault, you're the reasonable ones. saturday night, the republicans passed this budget with $60 billion in cuts. i don't think we know how the public feels about that now. >> at 4:30 in the morning, believe it or not. >> here's bill clinton's relationship with former president george herbert walker bush. a tsunami devastates southeast asia. in a moment of worst case horror, lives and livelihoods are swept away. a tragedy of such magnitude requires a massive relief effort. and the face of the american response must be a statesman of stature. president bush appoints two former presidents to the task -- his father and bill clinton. together, the two men fatake tot with gusto. >> what did you feel about that relationship? it's heralded now. what an interesting almost father-son relationship between you and the guy you beat. >> well, running against him actually was personally difficult for me. i didn't have any problem on the political differences we had, and i'll tell you an interesting story. in 1983, the governors met in the may. and then vice president bush hosted us. my daughter was 3 years old and i introduced her to president bush and she said hello, where's the bathroom? and the vice president took my daughter by the hand and walked her to the bathroom. >> hi. how are you, you beautiful girl? >> you know, our politics are very good but at the core he's a very good man. >> how can anybody not want to watch our doc tonight at 10:00 tonight. john, you were in it. you played a big role in our understanding of the guy. tell me how this all works. i just have to jump ahead to the doc. his presidency that ended on a 63% popularity when he got out of the office. constituent added up very positively for him. and then doing this sort of victory lap but but a whole new chapter in his life. did you see that coming that he would spend another decade out there in public service? >> he had to do something because he left as a young man. the last days were on a terrible note. a lot of people close to bill clinton said without the focus and discipline with the presidency h he's going to squander his opportunities. they were worried about that have. they were wrong. he has had focus in his ex-presidency and he has used it to advance what he sees as the public interest at home and abroad. >> deedee is going to love it. john harris, you're going to appreciate it. >> popcorn cooking. >> my proudest production so far. when we return, a big production, tonight at 10:00. let me finish my thought on why my money is on the government workers ute there in w s out the country. it has something to do with their livelihood. [ male announcer ] achievement: embraces mondays. ♪ achievement: loves working capital. ♪ achievement: puts receivables to work. ♪ achievement: expects a lot of itself. cfo: cash flow options, helping business achievers better manage their cash flow. pnc. for the achiever in us all. helping business achievers better manage their cash flow. nothing starts your day like honey roasted, honey bunches of oats. with a kiss of golden honey. and the same calories per serving as special k original. who knew 120 calories could taste so delicious? so, try honey roasted, honey bunches of oats! let me finish tonight ovn te war over government spending which continues today. it's going to get a lot hotter before it coos down. i think a lot hotter. the reason is simple -- the economic fact of scarce resources and competing ends. people don't want to pay higher taxes. government needs to live within its means, something's got to give. if you can't buy goods any cheaper than the market price, you have to find a way to get labor at a cheaper price. this means putting the squeeze on workers. well, the facts are just the facts. they explain the fight, of course. they don't tell you who's going to win. this much we can see. through all the words and positioning, this is a battle for people who work for government and those who work outside the goth. the republicans are beating there are more of the second group, they don't want to pay for those who do. the republican, 9 business world concerns in general are putting the squeeze on government employees. democrats, the country's labor unions and liberals are on the side of those wh

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