who and his relationships and what is real and what is not. and i have little reason to believe that he would not want to take that opportunity to make that just as difficult on these 12 jurors who he has met eye to eye with each and every one and individual who said they don't have a strong opinion of him and a man who has believed that he can woo the american public to vote for him, to think that he could woo 12 individuals sitting 15 feet away from him to vote in his favor inside a courtroom, too. >> vaughn, i think you are right, and i think of all of us you understand -- i'm sorry for you, that you understand what's between his ears better than anybody. i think the difference -- and i remember my own reporting from the mueller time that rudy and -- and all of his lawyers' position was they lay their bodies down between the white house and wherever robert mueller sat before they'd let trump testify on his own behalf if there was a criminal risk. and in this case, there is a