back. also joining us, dan goldman, former assistant u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, former league counsel for the democrats' first impeachment trial, not to be mixed up with the second impeachment trial and "new york times" editorial board member mara gay is here, all three msnbc contributors. i got through the draper piece, and i remember flynn being talked about as a vp and i actually remember i was interviewing jeb bush and people were covering threads of flynn. i think he was on "morning joe" one morning when you and i were both there, john heilemann, sort of cleaning up his positions on issues like abortion and whatnot. and then i saw mike pence give a speech today and i want to play what he said, and i wondered if it's beyond rational to wonder if pence and flynn could face off should trump sit it out. here's pence saying donald trump is wrong. >> and i heard this week that president trump said i had the right to overturn the election.