just a control plus plf. >> sondland himself told the world that basically nobody elss on the planet told him that donald trump wasla trying to ti aid to investigations. in fact he also said everything that he had been testifying to is simply his presumption. is that sright? >> that is correct. >> and so when we consider what a presumption is, it's not direct, it's not circumstantial, it's not even hearsay. in fact, we typically when we try the case we consider is speculation. is that right? >> doul courts allow speculatio in? >> llno. >> why not? >> because it's not reliable. >> it's inherently unreliable. so, can you name any democrat witness who asserted that he or she had direct evidence of those 17 that we heard from? >> we had some direct evidence on certain thingse and we had some direct evidence on the may 23idrd meeting. and sondland gave some direct evidence. but a lot of what we have obtained has been circumstantial. >> how about with regard to personal knowledge of the quid