congressman emanuel cleaver, chairman of the congressional black caucus. good day. i'm andrea mitchell live in washington. the white house insists a deal is still possible to prevent a government shutdown this friday, but from all reports has rejected the latest stopgap proposed by speaker boehner that would have cut $12 billion in the next week and fund the military through september. so let's get right to msnbc contributor and political analyst richard wolffe at the white house. they met, they talked for an hour, the fact that they left without any agreement, does that mean that there is no way that they can get the gears rolling in time under house rules to prevent a shutdown or is there still a lot of conversation left? >> reporter: you know, the language here is obviously not as optimistic as it was before the meeting when as you rightly point out the white house said a deal was possible. now they're saying, another stopgap measure is not desirable, but they're saying it may be acceptable. it is not quite clear what the terms of that would be. remember, the house republicans are looking for significant extra cuts just to get that stopgap measure in place. but it certainly looks like we're in a lot worse situation after the meeting than we were just a few days ago. remember when the vice president said they were working off the same number, not only do they not agree what that number is, they don't agree even on the terms of what to cut to get to that number that is no longer the number. >> when we talk about the bigger picture, this, of course, is the big budget rollout for paul ryan, the house republican who chairs the budget committee, of course. this is ryan earlier today talking about the big changes to medicare he's proposing. >> what we're showing is we can achieve that if we go now. what happens if we keep kicking the can down the road, we go about $10 trillion into the home of more empty promises every year we don't do anything. we can dig our way out of this in a sensible way, a secure way and save these entitlement programs from bankruptcy. >> this is a very big political play because they are betting basically that they will pick up enough tea party support and support from independents and other people who don't like the idea of big government and at risk of losing the seniors to put it bluntly. what is the real calculation and what is the white house saying about it, richard? >> reporter: well, the white house wants to engage in a longer term discussion about the deficit. there was the president's own commission on how to fix the deficit and these long-term budget problems, but they're saying first of all, let's deal with the current situation, let's talk about next year's budget, and these longer term deals if the republicans are serious, they have signed up to the commission before now, so a lot of politics being played out here for 2012 and beyond. >> indeed there are. thanks so much, richard wolffe. joining me now, republican congressman tom price of georgia who serves on the budget committee with paul ryan and chairs the house republican policy committee. congressman, thanks so much. >> hey, andrea. great to be with you. >> thank you. david brooks has praised what paul ryan has done today. but he is taking on all the sacred cows and according to many of his critics on the democratic side, even some republicans privately saying this is very, very tough medicine. >> well, it is tough medicine, but, andrea, here it is, it is a choice of two futures. the red line you see here is the path that the president has us on in terms of debt. the green line is what will bring us into balance. that's what we propose. we're talking about the facts of the situation, and the american people want the politicians here in washington to give them the truth. and the truth is that we're on a trajectory right now that we cannot sustain. we propose a path to prosperity that results in significant spending, decreases out of washington, tax reform, but reforming and insuring the health and retirement security for seniors stays in place and we save it for future generations. >> what you and paul ryan call tax reform, critics would say doesn't include any revenue increases, no tax increases. why not also take on that sacred cow and perhaps some of your own base? >> if you tax something -- if you increase taxes on something you get less of it. if you increase taxes on productivity and the job creators in this country, then you get fewer -- less productivity and fewer job creators. we don't believe that's the appropriate thing. >> some people would say if you increase taxes, you get more revenue. and if you cut taxes, particularly on the wealthy, you get less revenue. demonstrably less. >> in fact, what evidence will show and what the truth will show is that in this global market, in this global environment, if you -- if we increase taxes on the job creators in this country, then the job creators will go elsewhere. they'll go overseas. they don't have to stay here, andrea. and that's what the american people know. that's the truth of the situation, that's the fact of the matter, that's why we're putting forward this bold proposal to make certain we balance the budget, decrease spending here in washington and reform the systems of health and retirement security so that they are alive and saved for future generations. >> one final question, though, paul ryan was a member of the deficit commission. and didn't endorse any of the proposals. he was not part of the majority that supported what alan simpson and what former chief of staff ball said. >> well, in fact, he supported many of the proposals that came out of the deficit commission. he didn't vote for it in the end, and that's because there were no significant reforms to the real cost drivers in our budget. and those are the health care cost drivers. as a physician, i can tell you that medicare is not able to sustain itself for the long-term. which is why we don't affect any issue in medicare or medicate for those individuals 55 and above. but for those below, we save the system and give them what the president has always called on, which is the program that members of congress have for themselves, modeled after the federal employee health benefits program. so you can either have the path in the red, the one that increases the debt to astronomical levels and will destroy our country from the financial standpoint or have the path in the green, the responsible honest way to address the budget. >> dr. tom price, thank you very much. congressman, member of the budget committee, thank you for joining us today. and chris van holland speaking for the democrats is holding a briefing right now on the democratic response. let's go to him. >> -- largely exempts defense spending from reductions and would not apply any of the savings from eliminating or reducing tax expenditures as part of tax reform to deficit reduction. as a result, the chairman's plan relies on much larger reductions in domestic discretionary spending than does the commission proposal, while also calling for savings in some safety net programs, cuts that would place a disproportionately adverse impact on certain disadvantaged populations. so we have already had the verdict rendered by the leaders of the bipartisan commission that the republican plan in the house fails the simple test of balance. in fact, if you look at the republican plan, it is simply a recycled rigid ideology that says we need to provide big tax breaks to the very wealthy, and the very powerful at the expense of the rest of the country. it is dressed up in a lot of nice sounding rhetoric, about reform, but in fact it is the same tired old playbook we have seen before. they preserve and, in fact, increase tax cuts for the very wealthiest americans. they keep in place tax subsidies, taxpayer giveaways to the oil and gas industry and other special corporate interests while they cut education for our kids, while they cut investments in research, in science, and while they end the medicare guarantee for seniors and require seniors to go into a private insurance plan and at the whims of the insurance industry with constantly lowering amounts of support. all the risk goes to the seniors. >> democrat chris van holland responding to the paul ryan budget. and coming up next, oversight chairman darrell issa takes on the postal service. and send me your thoughts on twitter at mitchell reports. this is "andrea mitchell reports," only on msnbc. sneezes] allergies? 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[ male announcer ] get zyrtec®'s proven allergy relief and love the air®. and breaking news right now from the associated press. the associated press is reporting that democratic national chairman tim cane will indeed run for the open senate seat, the seat that has been held now by jim webb, that is opening up from virginia. tim cane, under considerable pressure from the white house to run for that virginia seat. he is widely held to be the best hope that the democrats have against a potential challenge from george allen, the former senator and also former governor. now the latest from japan. radiation readings in sea water near the embattled fukushima nuclear power plant have now reached levels that they say are millions of times above what is deemed safe, prompting japan's government to enact strict regulations on seafood sold in that country. toyota has announced it is shutting down all of its north american factories due to parts shortages caused by japanese shutdowns after last month's earthquake. neither rain nor snow nor earthquake presumably can halt the faithful delivery of the mail. but congress can. the postal service was on the defensive today, big time, against claims that a new contract with its workers does not cut enough spending. representative darrell issa is the chairman of the committee that oversees the postal service, and just about everything else, and joins us. chairman, nice to see you. thanks so much. why are you not happy with the savings that they have negotiated, more than $3 billion, almost $4 billion, correct, in savings in their new contract. why isn't that good enough? >> that's over several years of the contract, but we are happy. we are happy that there has been a realization that combination of pay freeze and other changes were a good thing. for the first time ever these postal workers that you see, this contract is the one you see behind the counter, they will be a little bit of flexibility where they can work 30 hours one week and 48 the next, potentially. and that's a good thing. that's what the private sector sees is that you can't be exactly the same hours every day, forever, in a service oriented economy. so we applaud that. what we're concerned about, and i think concerned deeply about, is that the pathway toward continued viability has not been called out in this. for example, the -- all the panelists agree, there is about 170,000 more postal workers in -- at the post office than will need to be with the level of service anticipated there is no clear pathway to trimming that down. one of the problems is postal workers stay on. very low attrition. so although we applaud many of the steps that were made, what we didn't see was a plan that gets to where there are not excess people in the post office and we can begin making investments in efficiency, so that the post office can be viable for years to come. but i've got to tell you, we understand that the postal workers themselves have done a great deal, and we would just like to see more management recognition that you've got to get the number right sized in government the way it is in the private sector. >> well, the postal service is partly private. it is this hybrid. and how do you make that work in terms of downsizing it to the extent that you think is tolerable while people still want the service? is saturday delivery now going to be a thing of the past? where do we stand on that? >> i think the post office has already made the decision they're going from six to five. it is in their projection. it is in all of their activities. they have moved temporary and if you will workers that don't have to keep their jobs into those six-day decisions. one of the questions that came up from both sides of the aisle was, okay, what happens if you stop. one of the things said by the post master general and others is, look, u.p.s. and fedex don't deliver saturday. this is not an area of great competition. we believe we can, in fact, make the adjustment. the american people with like to keep the service, but american people want to keep a 47-cent first class postage, they want to keep delivery to their door, so i believe that there is a responsible debate going on, and it is less about the six versus five than it is about maintaining delivery to your door for all americans at an affordable rate and at the same time keeping an obligation to the ever more retirees of the post office that need to be paid for out of current revenues. >> what's next on your agenda? you've already had hearings on fannie and freddie, freedom of information, you've had a host of hearings, but where do you go next in terms of your investigative focus? >> we have -- we actually have on the question of job creation, or american job creators.com's work, we have seven hearings just in this next week, either field hearings or hearings here on the hill because what we know is that government is part of the problem of jobs not being created. we want to make sure we're part of the solution. and that's something we're using the entire committee, because more than any other committee of the congress, we have oversight of over whether or not government is the problem, whether it is rules that are not being adhered to or rules that are being made up along the way. so that's a big part of what the committee is going to do we'. we're not done with the post office. there was calls for legislations on both sides of the aisle to help the post master do his job better. he says he needs congressional authority to do certain things he wants to do, including how money gets paid into retirement, so we have got plenty to do. and with seven subcommittees and seven good subcommittee chairman, i expect that we'll be very busy in the months to come. >> and when are you going to reach better agreements with elijah cummings, a frequent guest here who complains about not being included, that the democrats on the committee, especially the ranking member, congressman cummings, has not been part of your approach. you've been using your subpoena power, but not including them. >> well, that's certainly not true. every subpoena that has gone out has been with consultation with the ranking member. the vast majority of these -- actually they have either been in two categories, friendly subpoenas, meaning that the people like bank of america, and others, that we want to give you the documents, but we would like to have a subpoena so we can't be sued by third parties and that's a situation like that, we also had a whistle-blower who quite frankly we followed up with a subpoena to get it on the record. the last subpoena that went out, for example, yes, the ranking member wasn't happy, but it followed up letters from both senator grassley and myself urging some fair discovery by the administration that has an obligation to deliver it, that it refused to deliver it. so there is a line between consultation and simply giving a veto to the minority because the administration does not want to meet its obligation to deliver, if you will, evidence that it has. and in the case of the fora bill, this is one which it went all the way to the office of the chief of staff of the department of homeland security, they were politically interfering with people's -- and the press, associated press and others, fair discovery under freedom of information. so, sure that should concern all of us, particularly those that live by the first amendment that without that fair discovery of proper information that is guaranteed in the law, you can't do your job. >> well, we're going to have to leave it there. we'll follow up. thank you very much. >> thank you, andrea. >> chairman darrell issa. up next, breaking news, tim cane announcing he's running for the senate. gene cummings joins us next. first, a new top dog in college basketball. the uconn huskies grab their third ncaa national title last night, beating butler. the low scoring game was one of the ugliest played on the big stage. here is your sneak peek at "sports illustrated's" championship cover out tomorrow. jane carol's floral arrangements were big hits with celebrities like oprah. in 2009, she opened jane on main in pearl river, new york, adding a coffee shop to help sustain the flower business. the operation needed help. so we sent in the experts for a small business makeover. for more, watch "your business" sunday morns at 7:30 on msnbc. how are you getting to a happier place? running there? dancing there? how about eating soup to get there? campbell's soups fill you with good nutrition, farm-grown ingredients, and can help you keep a healthy weight. campbell's. it's amazing what soup can do. ♪ [ female announcer ] mini, meet berries. introducing new kellogg's frosted mini-wheats with a touch of fruit in the middle. helloooooo fruit in the middle. and breaking right now on "andrea mitchell reports," democratic national chairman tim kaine making it official, announcing he's running for the u.s. senate in virginia. gene cummings is the assistant managing editor. this certainly gives the democrats their best shot at trying to retain that seat. >> absolutely. once senator jim webb decided not to seek re-election, which would have been a tough rematch between him and the former republican senator george allen, all hopes were pinned on tim kaine getting into the race because he is the strongest candidate to take on george allen for the senate seat. >> so you're going to have two former governors going up against each other. >> and popular former governors. both of them were very popular when they left office. and i think what it also does is it turns virginia into a super referendum on obama in 2012 because we're going to have both kaine on the ticket, now closely aligned with the president and also the president himself. what we won't know is whether kaine can help obama or whether obama might hurt kaine. it will be really interesting to watch. >> remember that jim webb, when jim webb actually won that seat, that was one of the last of the returns to come in because it was so closely fought. we had a really tight race then. then you had the bob mcdonald race with his victory as governor for the republicans. so virginia has been sort of going -- teetering back and forth between republican and democratic sentiment. >> absolutely. the state generally seemed to be trending democratic, given the growth in the northern virginia suburbs. down states still very conservative. but virginia has, especially in state wide races, if you look at the lineup of governors, virginia often flips back and forth, one a republican replacing a democrat in succession. it happened for the last 20 years in virginia. so it is really a purple state. and it will depend a lot on the conditions of the economy at that time, the best arguments that are made, and where the independents swing because they go both ways in virginia. >> and just briefly, jeanne, any idea who might get the democratic national committee job? i saw dick durbin suggesting he didn't want any part of it when he was on "meet the press". >> there have been names floated around. ed rendell's name was tossed around by some. i'm sure the white house has probably got somebody lined up. i don't know who it is right now. i haven't had time to do that reporting. however, if you look at the way that tim kaine unrolled his candidacy today, it is pretty clear this decision has been made for some time. he was completing his services at the dnc, which he promised to do through the first quarter. and so as much as he's been preparing, i'm sure the white house has been preparing for his replacement as well. >> and republicans in their statement now, the republican campaign committee saying that now that washington -- that party leaders in washington have twisted tim kaine's arm enough to get him into this race, republicans welcome the clear contrast. that's their take, of course. and the race is on. thanks so much, jeanne. night raids kill civilian. will that force president obama to go back on his withdraws this summer. and tom brokaw joining us live on the road in baghdad. for rong bones, i takealcium. but my doctor told me that most calcium supplements... aren't absorbed properly unless taken with food. he recommended citracal. it's different -- it's calcium citrate, so it can be absorbed with or without food. citracal. positive? 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[ male announcer ] ...innovation for all. topping the headlines now on "andrea mitchell reports," nato says that it has destroyed nearly a third of the libyan army. one of the latest air strikes took out a convoy that was headed to the front lines near the oil town of brega. brega has been at the center of the battle, pitting government forces in the west against rebels in the east. in the ivory coast, the end could be near for the strong man who has refused to give up power to the president-elect. president obama is calling on laurent gbagbo to stand down. opposition fighters backed by the u.n. and french military forces are reportedly discussing terms of a surrender. and pop singer sweet mickey martially had been dancing in the streets in port-au-prince last night after winning the presidential election. he beat the country's former first lady winning more than two thirds of the vote. and in afghanistan, anti-american protests have erupted for a fifth straight day. hundreds of afghans gathered in kabul shouting death to america. protesting the burning of a koran by a u.s. pastor in florida. nbc's atia bouie has been reporting from afghanistan but joins me here in washington. welcome home. the craziness of this is beyond description. you have this paster in florida with very little notice, largely ignored a couple of weeks ago, did the burning and now it has just taken off like wildfire across afghanistan. but it is creating huge amount of anger here because of the ten years of war, the american lives that have been at stake and, of course, the amount of money spent in afghanistan. what does it tell us about the level of anger in america, how easily it can erupt. >> what is interesting here, andrea, is the fact that back in 2001, you look at the afghan attitudes toward the americans, for the most part, america was welcomed with arm arms. fast fee fast-forward to 2011, with the growth of corruption, afghans are very angry and right now there say growing anti-american sentiment brewing throughout the country. these events that happened, even on a small church in florida, something that barely made news here, there are people watching in afghanistan, people monitoring what is goinging on amo, among the insurgent groups. they're educated people that use the events to fl s ts to fan th hatred. it is really frightening when you look at the fighting season that we're approaching. >> with the change of the season, the spring and fall and the increased fighting, what about the impact on the efforts to withdraw some troops? we understand that general petraeus and others in the military do not want to withdraw. certainly outgoing defense secretary bob gates has been very reluctant. but the pressure from the white house, going all the way up to the president, reportedly, is to come up with some game plan for withdrawing. doesn't seem to be in the cards. >> well, this is a disconnect that i see when i'm there in afghanistan and i come back to washington, when you see the political aspect here in d.c., compared to the generals you speak to on the ground in afghanistan. what they'll tell you is exactly what they need. and they say, in fact, they would need more troops. but the drawdown they do expect, they're hoping it won't be combat troops because now they need the combat troops because they expect that 2011 will be just as bloody as 2010, which was the deadliest year for the war since it began. >> well, it is something we don't focus on enough here and so we're so grateful to you. thank you very much. >> thank you. >> thanks for being with us. and in iraq, shootings and a roadside bombing killed at least seven people today in that other war. part of an upsurge of violence. though american forces have moved out of a combat role, they still are dieing in the battlefield. including four since friday. tom brokaw is an nbc news special correspondent, live in baghdad for us. tom, what is the difficulty? you've been talking to people there, why is it so hard to move toward a better footing in iraq? we still see divisions. shia against sunni. >> reporter: you have to remember the passions have always run high in this country between the sunnis and the shias, and the kurds in the north. what you hear on the ground when you get here is a real disgust with the level of corruption in this country. they don't feel that that there has been a reaching out to bring all parties into the fold. so iraq really stands for the many lessons of this region, about how difficult it is to establish a democratic system. after all, it was eight years of war ago that this war began, has cost hundreds of billions of dollars, more than 4,000 americans have died, thousands and thousands more iraqis have died. and yet we're at a stage now where they have not been able to have a truly stable government. now, there are some encouraging signs on the way in from the airport today, that all the security checkpoints, they remand entirely by iraqi security forces. and by the way, as you know, andrea, secretary gates is leaving washington about now for a trip to this region and he's expected to meet with our closest allies over here and review american troop positions. and my guess is that he's going to get an earful from some of those allies, particularly if he has an opportunity to sit down with the saudis. andrea? >> well, that has been a real irritant for the saudis, they're concerned about our entire posture and how we have been looking at the whole region. in iraq, you've got the status of forces agreement which is supposed to lead to a complete american troop withdrawal by the end of this year. how likely is it that the malachi government going to want to extend that, and at what point does america have to figure out what to do about pulling out completely? what would happen to iraq if america left fully by the end of this year? >> reporter: it is interesting, andrea. today i talked to the history professor who was an impassioned opponent of the united states coming here at the beginning of the war. now he says that the united states simply cannot leave, but this week, the american ambassador to iraq announced that when the american forces leave, that he'll more than double the personnel he has of his very large embassy, the largest in the world, i think, to go from about 8,000 employees to 20,000. and you that additional 12,000 people will not include busboys. i think we'll see a lot of intelligence agents and probably even some special forces who will be coming in here under different kinds of identification badges. >> tom, one of the problems that i've been hearing about is how are -- with that buildup of the civilian personnel, at that enormous industry, a city unto itself, as you know, how are they going to be protected without american soldiers on the ground after 2011? how are they going to get out into the field? what contractors and we know what the problems have been with contractors, they're going to protect them or what kind of guns are going to go out with the civilian employees? because diplomats will be facing unprecedented dangers there in iraq. >> reporter: well, you know, one of the largest industries in this country are obviously private security contractors. i'm in the company of them right here, right now. nbc had them almost from the beginning, though in the earliest stages of the war, we did come in here on our own. but now you have an enormous presence of private security contractors and my guess is that the united states embassy will have to make some deals with other kinds of contractors as well to provide that kind of security or they'll do it on their own on a plain clothes capacity. in iraq, it is very, very hard to predict the future as you know. we have been through so many phases and stages here, it still is a country as a democratic republic that is very much in formation at this point, andrea. >> tom brokaw, back in iraq. keep those guys around you, my friend. thanks very much. and all of this, of course, costs a lot of money and this is going to be part of the budget debate. thanks, tom. and republicans today launched a budget revolution, proposing a new way to pay for health care for the elderly and poor. it is a huge political gamble. betting that their appeal to independent voters and tea party conservatives will outweigh the backlash to come from senior citizens. >> it is choice, it is competition, it is protection. we propose that we support people more if they're low income, more as they get sick and wealthy seniors don't get as much support. and doing it that way fixes the problem. saves medicare. >> they're going to require senior citizens now to go into the private insurance market and they're on their own there with a voucher, whatever you want to call it, that will decline in value. and they're going to shift the entire risk of rising health care costs to seniors. >> ron brown is editorial director of the national journal group and joins me now. i can't think of anyone who studied this more than you. so have at it. who is right? >> you heard the whole debate there in a nutshell, two words, choice versus risk. what you're going to see in the next few weeks is very much an echo, i believe, of what we saw in 2005 when george bush wanted to fundamentally change social security. in the same way that republicans today are proposing to take medicare from what it is now, in essence a defined benefit program, you're guaranteed certain benefits, and make it a defined contribution program, where the government would guarantee you only a payment every year, a stipend, to buy private insurance. they will argue, as paul ryan did, that expands choice for seniors. democrats will argue that this imposes financial risks on seniors and shifts the risk of rising health care costs from the government to seniors. that's the way to save money. very much parallel to the arguments we saw in 2005 and in 2005, risk trumped choice. and seniors, in fact, did not -- and the country overall did not buy the changes george bush wanted to propose. a lot of consultants are nervous about whether they can truly sell a change of this magnitude on a party line baseis. >> what happened since 2005, we have seen all the market volatility, which has some, would say, validated the argument that it is too risky. on the other hand, the government debt has grown to the point where people say we are at a turning point, this is a crisis of unprecedented proportions. those are the two choices. plus on medicaid, taking it and making it a block grant that is a very big change for government. >> absolutely. this is part of the republican agenda in '95 and '96, bill clinton i believe vetoed it twice. it was included in welfare reform, a red line for democrats. don't have democratic governors, it ends the entitlement to medicaid. and if you look at medicare, the core difference here is that democrats, if you look at the 2010 health care law, the democrats believe the way to control medicare costs over time, which has to be done, every agrees, is to change the incentives for providers, try to shift them from volume to value in the way they get paid. republicans put much more emphasis on changing incentives for patients, making people more cost conscious and less likely to use services themselves. that's at the core of the argument we'll be seeing here in the months ahead. >> a fascinating debate and what paul ryan has kicked off, whether you like it or not, is really the fundamental argument about the way we approach our future. >> he has turned over the most important card for republicans between now and 2012, likely i believe that every republican presidential candidate has to move in the direction of supporting this, establishing what is likely to be a very clear contrast with president obama. >> big day in washington. >> absolutely. >> ron brown, thank you for coming. >> thank you. coming up next, congressman emanuel cleaver, chair of the congressional black caucus, we'll get his reaction to the budget battles and the state of black america. ♪ there's another way to minimize litter box odor: purina tidy cats. our premium litters now work harder to help neutralize odors in multiple cat homes. purina tidy cats. keep your home smelling like home. how are you getting to a happier place? 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[ female announcer ] ask the doctor about your loved one trying the exelon patch. visit exelonpatch.com to learn more. hi, everyone. i'm tamron hall. on "news nation," we're waiting to hear from jay carney after talks between president obama and congressional leaders failed to produce a deal on the budget. speaker john boehner's also set to hold a news conference at the top of the hour. and we'll get reaction from democrat bill pacific rell and republican tim houles camp. a major security breech online exposes the names and e-mail adresses of millions of customers. some of the biggest stores in the u.s. affected by this. it could actually affect you. o all thof that ahead and more. paul ryan's 2012 budget released today includes reforms what they call reforms and big cuts in housing assistance, job training and food stamps, all which of would have a big impact on particularly poor and minority communities. some say representative emanuel cleaver chairs the congressional black caucus and joins me now. what is your initial reaction to what you've been able to see so far of the ryan budget? >> we received a preview of it yesterday, as much as could be given without seeing the actual budget. but it is clearly a nervous breakdown on paper. and it will do enormous damage, i think, to the vulnerable populations of this country. i'm not suggesting that mr. ryan wants to do damage, but it is doing damage nonetheless. when you consider that unemployment rate for african-americans is reaching a 25-year high, it is 15.5% and rising, and that means that the people who are going to be impacted by layoffs, for example, particularly on the public sector, are going to be minorities. minorities make up one fourth of the federal workforce. they did that because they figured that if they could work for the federal government, that would be a less likely opportunity for somebody to discriminate against them. >> well, one of the -- one of the columns praising what ryan has done has come from david brooks and the new york times today. his point is this the ryan budget puts all future arguments in the proper context, writes brooks. the current welfare state is simply unsustainable and anybody seer who is serious on left or right has to have a new vision on the social contract. his basic argument is that we have reached the point of no return. so we have to take a fresh look, bring new sight to what we have always assumed was the given. address that for a moment, given the budget deficit and what you're facing. >> to some degree i agree with mr. brooks. but, look, the budget is a moral statement, it is a declaration of the moral somebodiness of the united states. i think we need to look at social welfare again. but we can't devastate the poor as we do it. and i think we have to take some compassionately smaller steps than we're taking now. the poor will always be with us. i've read that in another nongovernment book. and it means that we have some responsibility. the united states can't invade or go to war in libya to protect people who were being hurt, and then say, we're no longer going to help people in the united states who are hurt. and it will disproportionately impact the vulnerable population, most particularly hispanic and african-americans. >> want to ask you something, you just raised the subject of libya, do you -- what do you think the united states' responsibility ought to be in cote d'ivoire where we have seen hundreds and hundreds of peops military, they're refusing to give up power, and the incoming, the president-elect who is entitled to take over but there have been atrocities reported at lest on both sides. do we have any responsibility or should we leave that up to the united nations? >> we have confused the world and the american public and it goes to both republican and democratic administrations. what separates us going into libya that didn't allow us to go into the sudan, where tens of thousands, some record that hundreds of thousands were killed. and so it seems as if, you know, we have less interest and in sub-saharan africa than we do in the middle east and there are probably some reasons for that, that that that i don't understand. i hope it's not what many americans believe, and that is that the oil-rich companies are going to always get the attention of and support from the united states. >> do you think it's a matter of color? >> you know, i hate -- i'm probably one of the strongest persons who advocates trying to reduce the language that separates people on the basis of color, but that's why i talked about the fact that it may be oil. i don't know. you know, with president obama i don't think he made a decision to invade or to use tomahawk missiles in libya but refuses to go into sub-saharan africa. after all, his family members are still living there, so i don't think it's that. but i think it is still confusing because we don't know what separates it. somebody nieeds to explain that to us. what are our -- the national interest we have in libya and why don't we have that same interest in the ivory coast, for example? >> emmanuel cleaver, thank you very much, congressman. thanks for joining us today. at msnbc's special series "a stronger america: the black agenda" continues on sunday with a special show hosted by ed schultz and we'll be right back. . it was so complicated. there was a lot of information out there. but it was frustrating trying to get the answers i needed. then my company partnered with unitedhealthcare. they provided onsite screenings, healthy cooking tips. that's a recipe i'm keeping. ( announcer ) turning complex data into easy tools. we're 78,000 people looking out for 70 million americans. that's health in numbers. unitedhealthcare. and eating well means getting enough whole grain and calcium. general mills big g is the only leading line of kid cereals with at least 8 grams of whole grain and a good source of calcium. help your kids get more of what they need, with general mills kid cereals. help your kids get more of what they need, somewhere in america, a city comes to life. it moves effortlessly, breathes easily. it flows with clean water. it makes its skyline greener and its population healthier. all to become the kind of city people want to live and work in. somewhere in america, we've already answered some of the nation's toughest questions. and the over sixty thousand people of siemens are ready to do it again. siemens. answers. i always cared what they wrote about me. any politician who tells you otherwise is lying to you, but i cared what he thought about me. it mattered to me, chris, what he thought about me. >> honoring the life of journalist david broder. washington stopped at noon today. msnbc contributor and managing editor chris silissa among those who worked with and loved david broder. words cannot express how many of us got our start in journalism because of david broder. >> i was there at the national press club to honor david. dan balls, a great political journalist in his own right, said what i thought was the most poignant thing. he said there will not be another one like david broder. he is irreplaceable, and that to me i think really captures it. look, we all aspire to what he did. the devotion to what he did, 13 presidential campaigns. it's a remarkable testament to a man who loved political journalism. >> and the pictures we just saw were david broder already at the age of 79 i think in new hampshire in 2008. and that does it for us. that is this edition of "andrea mitchell reports." tomorrow a first look at the "wall street journal" poll and my colleague tamron hall has a look at what's next. next hour we are following develops news from washington on the budget talks to avoid a government shutdown. no deal was reached after the president met with congressional leaders including speaker boehner. we're xping expecting to hear fe white house press secretary. speaker boehner is set to hold a news conference in the next hour. we'll bring all of it to you live next on "news nation." tack: people like you. it's one of the most researched prescription medicines. goes beyond what they do alone by helping to keep blood platelets from sticking and forming dangerous clots. plavix. protection against heart attack or stroke in people with acs. [ female announcer ] plavix is not for everyone. certain genetic factors and some medicines such as prilosec reduce the effect of plavix leaving you at greater risk for heart attack and stroke. your doctor may use genetic tests to determine treatment. don't stop taking plavix without talking to your doctor as your risk of heart attack or stroke may increase. people with stomach ulcers or conditions that cause bleeding should not use plavix. taking plavix alone or with some other medicines, including aspirin, may increase bleeding risk, which can potentially be life threatening, so tell your doctor when planning surgery. tell your doctor all medicines you take, including aspirin, especially if you've had a stroke. if fever, unexplained weakness or confusion develops, tell your doctor promptly. these may be signs of ttp, a rare but potentially life-threatening condition, reported sometimes less than two weeks after starting plavix. riding the dog like it's a small horse is frowned upon in this establishment! luckily though, ya know, i conceal this bad boy underneath my blanket just so i can get on e-trade. check my investment portfolio, research stocks... wait, why are you taking... oh, i see...solitary. just a man and his thoughts. and a smartphone... with an e-trade app. ♪ nobody knows... [ male announcer ] e-trade. investing unleashed. ♪ [ female announcer ] mini, meet berries. introducing new kellogg's frosted mini-wheats with a touch of fruit in the middle. helloooooo fruit in the middle. right now on "news nation," no deal, now what? president obama meets with congressional leaders in a last-ditch effort to end the fierce political fighting over spending cuts, but they leave without an agreement. the white house press secretary is expected to speak any minute