documentary evidence and if people have the time, i think goldman will be able to make a good case. whether they're able to convince a jury of their peers is unknown. the big question is what have they done to hurt themselves in the court of public opinion. this gets back to this anger in america concept that seems so prevalent now. you've got to ask, why was goldman creating these securities and puts people in a position to have to defend them after the fact. i don't think that's necessary hi fair to goldman sachs to have to put them in that position. they believed they were helping their clients, but it just didn't look good. >> well, not only doesn't look good, but makes people feel that this is the smoking gun. accurately or not, people feel that tells you everything you need to know about the way wall street is operating. this is what lloyd blankfein had to say -- there's reporting today "the new york times" that in fact, the investigators are now looking at how high up this actually went and whether all the way up to the ceo there were people involved, top executives at goldman who signed off on what this one man was doing. >> but if i understand what we've heard so far about the core of goldman's defense, it won't have to do with who in the firm knew about it, but the merits of the case. whether that was a material fact that had to be disclosed. >> of course, mayor mike bloomberg has been more defensive of the financial community. he and chuck schumer on opposite sides of this. bloomberg coming from wall street, having been a trader and of course, interested in not losing any more jobs. >> the real danger here is that we write a bill based on populous reaction i'm going to get those sobs because of a financial crisis which incidentally had something to do with, but not the only ones reasonable. >> bill, from what you know now of the bill that is now being considered, chris dodd, trying to get senator corker and other republicans back on board, from the bill that is now moving through the senate, what impact would it have on wall street? would it prevent these kinds of very opaque things from being traded without transparency in the future and future meltdowns? >> one good thing it would do if they pass it and i think the president spoke to this over the weekend, is making sure that these kinds of esoteric securities are traded on an exchange and are clear and people understand the buy and sell and who are the parties involved. all these kind of drerivative transactions and securities, but whether or not this would prevent this crisis, i just don't think that it would have. i don't see anything in this bill that would have done that. >> lloyd blankfein was previously scheduled to testify before carl levin's investigative panel on april 27th. now, that is going to be a very hot hearing indeed. thank you very much. thanks to both. and today, the united states says it has struck a potentially devastated blow to al-qaeda in iraq. two top leaders killed in a joint raid this weekend. on the foreign policy front in a "new york times" exclusive over this weekend weekend, the white house acknowledges now on iran, a provocative memo by robert gates. what to do about iran and its nuclear program. on both subjects, richard hawes. his most recent book, richard, let's first talk about how significant al masri and these two deaths over the weekend. does this boost the maliki government and the forces as we're about to draw down from iraq. >> it's welcome news, but we've passed the point where al-qaeda is the principal threat to stability in iraq. increasedly is the difficulty iraqis are having at coming to terms with one another. we're seeing that with the slowness in forming a new government in the aftermath of the elections. so again, this is good news, but the real question is much more the sheer sunni question in iraq and this will not fundamentally affect that. >> let's talk about iran, which is continuing a growing problem for the united states. over the weekend, it was reported "the new york times" that robert gates had written a memo to the white house, general jones, the president, expressing some concerns about what we know and don't know about iran and whether we have an effective strategy. he wrote -- in that case, what do you do? you've been writing about this and in government, had to deal with this issue. "meet the press" last week, secretary gates saying, we don't know what we don't know and won't really know when they are operational. so, what kind of military strategy must they have? >> it's good that bob gates wrote this memo because the administration has put such an extraordinary emphasis on negotiations and sanctions. odds are they won't be enough. so what bob gates is essentially saying, let's focus on plan b and there are several possibleties. the first is to look at what sort of military force could be used to enforce either existing sanctions or possible sanctions. for example, if someone in the congress, if we put a ban on iran's ability to import refined oil, would we use military force to enforce that. that's a big question. beyond that, the fundamental question of the united states using force against iran's nuclear related insulations and then the opposite approach. what are the pros and cons of not using force and instead, living with an iranian nuclear weapon or something close to it. what you might call the north korean option. can we do that and what cost. so what bob gates is saying in this memo is let's get serious. amidst all the effort in new york, over seas with negotiations, odds are, none of that will work, so let's start drilling down on the reaeeal options. >> and what to do if israel goes off on its own. >> not necessarily. the israelis, if they were to act, might decide they don't want to involve us. but some of the same questions still arise. the chances are, if israel were to act, we would one way or another be seen by iran as having been involved, so we would have to plan for these scenarios and you've got to play this like chess, not checkers. three, four, five moves in advance. and we'd want to talk to the saudis and others about how to keep the oil price from skyrocketing. >> and the saudis have been trying to reassure the chinese that if they would join the sanctions, they would not have an interrupted oil supply. to be continued. thank you very much. great to see you. up next, president clinton's advice to president obama about the upcoming supreme court choice and the one thing that president clinton can't get enough of these days. his one-on-one with nbc's luke russert. >> when i'm your age, will i be living in an america that is the sole world superpower? >> no. uh... yeah? you gonna ask him this time? about what? our erectile dysfunction. shh...no...i don't want to talk about it. look, you're not alone, millions of men with ed have talked to their doctors. i don't know... we can do this. okay... 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>> no, but you can be and should be living in an america that still has enormous influence in the world, not just because of economic and military power, but because we should still be the engines of freedom and creativity. i'm trying in the years i have left, to create an ethic in this country so that young people believe that being good citizen is more than being in elections and voting in elections and making good political choices, but rendering public service at private citizens. >> health reform becomes law. >> health care just passed last march. you said in august of '09, the minute the president signs a health care reform bill, approval will go up. >> if you go back and look at the numbers, it did go up ten points in three days after he signed it. and it's gone back down and that surprised me, but i think it's gone back down because it's just being implemented and most people have not felt an impact. >> and justice sotomayor of the united states. >> do you think president obama needs -- >> he's got to ask himself first and foremost, will i be proud of this person. if i had to leave the presidency the day after i make this appointment and this person serves for 30 years, would i always be proud. secondly, i hope he'll appoint someone who's reasonably young, someone with a chance to serve at least 25 years on the court. i think that's important. but he also needs to consider, what do these people know and when they're in a room talking about a case, some kind of real world experience different from the other members of the court. >> not as good as hillary rodham clinton though. >> i think she's doing a good job at where she is and i think she believes as i do, i think she'd be a great supreme court judge, but i think she probably thinks that it would be better if he appointed somebody younger. although my mother-in-law's 91. i joke with her all the time, she might have three husbands after me. going to live forever. >> how is your heart doing? >> as far as i know, fine. i'm supposed to sleep more than i have since i've been an adult, so i've been working hard on forcing myself to sleep more, but i think it's managing heart disease, it's very much now about both diet and lifestyle and i'm trying to do it. and i feel very blessed. i got luck y. that's one reason i do things like this. i feel that every day's a gift and i thought i'd recognize it and give it back. >> mr. president, thank you for your time. >> thank you. >> you really got to the -- wide variety of topics. this being the oklahoma city bombing, he got into a fufl with rush limbaugh on this. we played some of this on friday, words have meaning. watch what you say. >> absolutely. in that op-ed he wrote today really showed that. that a lot of the rhetoric prevalent 15 years ago, he's seeing back in the national dialogue. which to him, is probably a scary thing considering he presided until 9/11. >> i love that he talked about the supreme court and acknowledges that he would be too old and hillary clinton -- >> he walked that back quickly. his mother-in-law is 91 years old, but it was an interesting point. he went on to tell me that republicans have had a really interesting strategy to appoint younger judges when in power on the federal level with the idea they want them in there for up to 25, 30 years. bill clinton is really advocating that strategy. the next justice should be young so they can be on that court for a long period of time. >> that is exactly what we are told president obama's strategy is. he wants someone young and intellectually vigorous who will be able to go up against chief justice roberts because he perceives him as really strong and shaping this court. >> indeed, and showing how young people are going to make a difference. another thing president clinton told me was that in 2010 for these midterms, if young people do not turn out, he thinks the democrats will not be able to win the house. young people have to show. >> you're going to be all over that. >> we will indeed. few more months. i like being here with you. >> thanks. great interview. and coming up, growing anger at the government. well, already. plus, the two sides of the tea party. send me your thoughts. you can find me on twitter at mitchell reports. 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[ female announcer ] visit exelonpatch.com for free caregiving resources. i didn't vote for obama basically because i couldn't figure out what his agenda was. he wanted to scream, change, change, change. >> tea partiers attracted big crowds last week, but new polling indicates a split. what are they doing? politico's executive editor joins us. you did some interviews, politico, in the crowds here in washington and talking to people in boston. what is your sense now, take a look at your own poll, at whether they are social conservatives, fiscal conservatives or both. >> we did a poll of the activists here in washington and there's a clear split. a sarah palin camp, which tends to be more socially conservative and about half the people we surveyed considered themselves in that camp. the others, ron paul libertarian conservatives. their anger is more fueled by what's happening in washington and washington's intrusion into their own life. it's not a monolithic block and we've been spending a lot of time looking to figure out who is in the tea party and how much success they're having and what kind of durability this kind of movement might have. >> you also polled people about barack obama and found quite a split there. people who think he's a socialist, 76%. is the one thing tea partiers seem to agree on is a dislike and probably a lack of understanding of obama and his policies? >> there's no doubt that this is not a pro obama crowd. most did not vote for obama last time and would not the next time around, but it would be a mistake to assume they would vote for the republican candidate. many did vote for mccain, but no polling data and interviews, a lot of them are just as disgusted by the bush years and vote for bills just as intrusive as democrats. therefore, republicans would make a big mistake to assume they have to base in their pocket and that this base of voters will show up and vote for their candidates in november. i think republicans would have to earn their votes and a lot would vote for a third party candidate. >> very interesting. thank you very much. in iceland today, volcanic ash is turning day tonight, but some airports are beginning to reopen. is it safe? plus, 15 years ago today, the worst act of domestic terrorism the united states has ever experienced. oklahoma city, remembering the victims. >> in big ways and small, resilience is a pillar of our security and there has never been a better example of that than here. well, here they are. ♪ so many, many reasons ♪ it's so m'm! m'm! good! ♪ having the right real estate agent on your side is more important than ever. at remax.com, you can find the experts you need, whether you're trying to sell of hoping to buy. nobody sells more real estate than re/max. visit remax.com today. and we are breaking news right now. vice president joe biden is expected in the white house briefing room any moment and we expect that he will address the killings of the two al-qaeda figures in iraq. as we know, iraqi prime minister nouri al maliki announced the deaths at a news conference in baghdad. showed photographers of corpses. michael isakoff is with me. these are two pretty good hits. >> the heirs to sar cowy, the guy who brought the kind of mass attacks against civilians to iraq. what's significant is that this was not announced by the iraqis, but confirmed by the u.s. military. that's important because so often, you get reports of these guys getting killed and it turns out they're not. the fact that vice president biden is coming out, it is a pretty good sign of how important this is being viewed by the obama administration. it is key to president obama's whole strategy to be able to pull u.s. troops out of iraq this year. he wants to be able to do it. successes like this are going to make it a whole lot easier to pull off. >> now, while we wait for vice president biden, we want to speak to you about the gun rallies around town. we have them here in washington, across the river in virginia. you've been writing on declassified on your blog about the gun lobby and some of the concerns in fact that the gun, the antigun activists, have about president obama. >> well, sure. look, this is an issue that the obama administration almost across the board has not touched at all. they have almost from the beginning, shut down attorney general holder and secretary of state clinton when they talked about reinstating the ban on assault riffles. clearly, political decision went made that this is too sensitive. they don't have enough votes on capitol hill. here is something that i don't think many people have focused on. we wrote about today. the bureau of firearms, policing the illegal flow of weapons. you have them flowing across the border. also, going to criminal gangs. 15 months into the obama administration, not even a nominee to run the agency. >> what's happening behind the scenes? >> what you get told is given the almost inevitable resistance from the nra and gun lobby, they can't find anybody to take the job, so they've looked really hard, they've offered to a lot of people and the idea of getting somebody has proven too difficult. it also raises the question of how high a priority. but the idea that you have a major justice department agency that is pretty critical to one of the prime issues facing the country right now without even a nominee to direct it is pretty telling. the guy who had been acting director, kenneth nelson, was forced to step down, demoted to the job of deputy director because a law that limits how long you can serve. so now, there's not even an acting director for atf. critics say it makes a difference, sends a signal to how important this is and how aggressive an agency can be. >> there's no one to advocate for this budget, no one to lead it and no one to go to capitol hill. >> and we have a time with the surge in activity, cross border violence from mexico. secretary clinton went down to mexico last month and said we're doing all we can to stop the flow of illegal weapons. who's supposed to do that? that's atf. they don't even have a nominated director to do it. >> thank you very much. michael isakoff. of course, read more on declassified, michael's blog. meanwhile, frustrations mounting for travelers stuck at airports, taking massive losses each day. ash cloud still covering the skies. dawna friesen with us. i first wanted to ask about the latest from britain and the fact that some flights are being permitted and reaction from the governments involved. >> the airlines are getting increasingly angry, especially after they did some test flights over the weekend. they sent planes up without passengers and landed without incident. these airlines are saying, what's the matter -- >> if you'll stand by, we've got the vice president now. >> early this morning on -- early in the morning, october 18th, iraqi security forces killed the two most senior leaders of al-qaeda iraq during a series of joint security operations. abu ayyub al masri and -- the former leaders of aqi, the ones who plotted, planned and executed terror attacks against the iraqis in recent past as well as americans. their deaths are potentially devastating blows to al-qaeda iraq. but equally important in my view is this action demonstrates the improved security strength and capacity of iraqi security forces. the iraqis led this operation and it was based on intelligence the iraqi security forces themselves developed following their capture of a senior aqi leader last month. in short, the iraqis have taken the lead in securing iraq and its citizens by taking out these individuals. this counterterrorism operation is the culmination of a lot of cooperation and very hard work by iraqi and u.s. forces to degrade aqi over the past several months and years. our thoughts and prayers go out to the family of the u.s. soldier who was killed while supporting this assault. i apologize. i hate to mention the death of a individual american without mentioning their name because i don't want to sound like it's just a name, but the family has not been informed yet and that's the only reason i'm not releasing the name of this young hero. we also commend all the troops and civilians serving in iraq who continue to put themselves in harm's way in the service or our country and a secure and peaceful iraq. to consolidate these security gains in honor of sacrifices so many have made, it's now incumbent on iraqi's political leaders to take the next and necessary step to form an inclusive and representative government that meets the needs of the iraqi people. we remain committed to end our combat mission in iraq this summer by the end of august 2010 and in accordance with the u.s.-iraqi security agreement signed a couple of years ago, to remove all u.s. forces from iraq by the end of 2011. as we complete this security transition, we will continue to work to build a lasting partnership with iraqi people and their government based on the many shared interests we have that go beyond the military cooperation we've had of late including the economy, education, cultural exchanges and the development of a strong economy for iraq. for today, i want to mark this important milestone as the iraqi people stand up to those who would deny them peace, freedom, as well as security. there will be more difficult days ahead, but this operation is evidence in my view, that the future of iraq will not be shaped by those who seek to destroy that country, but belong to those who are building a strong and unified iraq as i'm confident the iraqis will do. thank you very much. >> joe biden, the vice president of course announcing the two deaths in iraq and of course, paying tribute to those who were involved in this as we go to break, we'll be back after these messages. want better foods. so l helped a restaurant chain create a zero trans-fat cooking oil for their fries, that preserved their famous taste. this is how cargill works with customers. i switched to a complete multivitamin with more. only one a day men's 50+ advantage... has gingko for memory and concentration. plus support for heart health. 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umm fancy a crisp? geico. fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more on car insurance. somewhere in america... there's a home by the sea powered by the wind on the plains. there's a hospital where technology has a healing touch. there's a factory giving old industries new life. and there's a train that got a whole city moving again. somewhere in america, the toughest questions are answered every day. because somewhere in america, more than sixty thousand people spend every day answering them. siemens. answers. a potential perfect storm might be brewing of antigovernment anger. a new pew poll finds that 76% of americans never or rarely trust the government. match that with partisan backlash and poor economy. they say growing distress could come as new surprise. president of the pew research center joins us now. this is troubling, to say the least. >> this is one of the low points over the past three or four decades, previous comparable to what we saw in the mid-90s, in the late 70s, early 80s. it's part of the american dna, but this level is truly extraordinary. part of it is also politics. we have the single lowest rating for the american congress we've ever achieved. 65% said they have an unfavorable view of congress. both political parties get low ratings. >> there used to be favorable ratings for each congress member, but we've seen that no longer are people happy about their own representative. it's not just the recession. this is not just economic hard times. this is a coming together of anger, whether barack obama had any choice as president in doing some of the bailouts and gets blamed for the financial bailout under president bush, people just angry at the size of government and the involvement in what they see as us against them. >> part of it is a little bit of backlash, barack obama. a liberal democrat takes office and people get anxious. remember back with reagan, it was the opposite. people were concerned he was going cut government too much. the other thing is that the health care reform really raised a debate. really raised a profile of too much government. so all of these things conspireing with one another and we and other pollsters are recording record numbers of people saying, terrified of the government. >> and last week, bill clinton got himself into it with rush limbaugh, words matter, talk about civil discourse. but you had michele bachmann at the tea party rally referring to the gangster government. what message does that send? >> well, obviously, when you have 20% of the public, one out of five americans saying they're angry, you've got a climate of opinion that is troublesome and you can't take away, take from that conclusion, that 20% of american public is disposed to violence, but you also have to take into account that in emotional times will unsettle the unsettled. >> and projecting forward, is there any way to figure out what kind of impact this will have in terms of the midterm elections? will people stay home? will they come out? will they throw the out the incumbents? >> the distrust seems to be favoring the republican party. the swing voters are more inclined to vote republican, but keep in mind when people are so disillusioned, you can't take much for granted this far out. >> andrew, thank you so much for sharing your poll data. i think thank you, for telling us just how bad things are out there. and tragedy remembered 15 years later as political leaders joined in oklahoma city. ron mott is in oklahoma city. kelly o'donnell covered the timothy mcveigh trial. ron, first to you. let's talk about what's happening with secretary napolitano and the others at that ceremony today. >> good afternoon. just building on this conversation you had about the distrust that americans have. obviously, there was some disdain for the u.s. government that led to this tragedy, but that was not clearly the focus today. on this 15th anniversary, the focus was on the 168 people who lost their lives in an act of violence that is so unspeakable in so many ways. to the left, we can see some of the folks still paying tributes to these folks. 19 children among them who were in a second-floor child care center. they were remembered with somber words today but also with the hope of a future and that things will get better. >> at that beautiful memorial, it really is so heartbreaking to even remember what happened back then. kelly o'donnell, you were there for the trial of timothy mcveigh and you actually heard from him when he was in jail because you were such a part of that coverage. talk to us about what happened then and 15 years later, now. >> when i was covering the trial, of course we were across the bar from each other, mcveigh at the defense table and i was in the press gallery. after he was convicted, i was stunned to receive a he was con stunned to receive a couple letters from him while he was incarcerated at the super max jail. it was striking because his own handwriting had been such a part of the prosecution. it was very distinctive with a left, backward slant to it so when i first looked at the envelope it was a bit startling. what was interesting is he did not talk about the case at all but instead his concerns about the rights of prisoners who were also being held at the super max facility, which ties into some of his feelings about the government. during the trial, when his defense was being presented he made everyone in the courtroom watch a very lengthy video about what happened at waco because we learned later that was really his motivation. it was certainly part of the trial but he had not yet confessed but wanted everyone to hear what fueled his passion so much which was very stirring and disturbing. of course today as ron mentioned we think of all the families who have been so dedicated over the years to following this case and the memory of their family members who all in so many ways attended the trials. people also forget terry nichols who was convicted is still in prison and michael for theier who was also protected is out in witness protection now. >> kelly o'donnell, thank you and thank you, ron mottt for sharing that with us. tonight rachel maddow gives a rare glimpse of oklahoma city bomber timothy mcveigh in "the mcveigh tapes" only on msnbc. >> my little brother -- >> i remember my grandparents from the first four. robert lee luster jr. -- >> my mother, gone but not forgotten. a little infortion f. for broccoli, say on for toys, say two. ys ! the system can't process your response at this time. what ? 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[ male announcer ] you're surrounded by fabrics all day. ♪ wouldn't softer feel better? try ultra downy. it softens fibers better than detergent alone, for a deep-down softness. and ultra downy april fresh has more than double the softening ingredients than the leading value brand's original fresh. ♪ and softer feels better. get more. feel more. yeah, this trip is way overdue. i just can't wait to see all those crunchy flakes in action. i hope i get a chance to put two scoops!™ of raisins in some boxes. you know what will really get us in the spirit? ♪ 99 boxes of raisin bran crunch ♪ ♪ if you're nice to me i'll share some with you ♪ ♪ you take one down ( and pass it around ) ♪ ♪ 98 boxes of raisin bran crunch ♪ three tasty ingredients, one great combination. ♪ raisin bran crunch! which political story will be making headlines in the next 24 hours? chris cillizza "the washington post" national political reporter and author of "the fix" joins us now. what are you looking at today? >> well, andrea, the president is headed to the left coast later today and is going to do a series of events for barbara boxer the senator from california as well as the democratic national committee. now, these are going to raise between $3 million and $3.5 million, always helpful when you're running like barbara boxer is in a state as expensive as california to have every dollar you need. california is very interesting. this is a state that is obviously strongly democratic but republicans are optimistic both in the governor's race, very wealthy, former ebay executive meg whitman is running and has already put $59 million of her own money into the race, and in the senate race where they think they have a chance against boxer, whose numbers have really dropped down considerably over the last year or so. >> it looks as though barbara boxer might have a more competitive race than is normally the case so we'll be looking at that tomorrow. >> absolutely. >> thanks very much. that does it for this edition of "andrea mitchell reports" and tomorrow on the show we'll talk to senator blanche lincoln on financial reform, one of the top competitive races right now in arkansas. remember, you can follow the show online and on twitter. vegetables are naturally low in calories. v8 juice gives you 3 of your 5 daily servings. it's a tasty, nutritious way to make this number go up... and help this one go down. v8. what's your number? i'm going to own my own restaurant. i want to be a volunteer firefighter. when i grow up, i want to write a novel. i want to go on a road trip. when i grow up, i'm going to go there. i'm going to work with kids. i want to fix up old houses. 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( bells tolling ) ( all cheering ) ha ha ha! announcer: introducing the kohler karbon faucet. i'm tamron hall. developing right now on msnbc news live, packing heat, gun rights activists rally near the nation's capital in support of their right to bear arms. is the rally about the second amendment or are these activists trying to send a different message? plus, remembering oklahoma city 15 years later. what has the nation learned from the deadliest act of domestic terrorism? and the nightmare may soon be over for thousands of stranded travelers. limited air service is resuming in the skies over europe with even more flights set to take off tomorrow. this as that volcano causing the chaos continues to erupt. when will it all end? >> their deaths are potentially devastating blows to al qaeda iraq. >> that was vice president joe biden speaking within the last half hour about a major break for the u.s. forces in iraq. al qaeda's top two leaders are killed in a joint effort with the u.s. troops and iraqi troops as well. the travel nightmare caused by the volcano in iceland could soon ease up. we've gotten word britain and france will gradually begin opening up their air space tomorrow and that means thousands of passengers who have been stranded for days could finally start to get to their destinations. the royal navy has already deployed ships to help bring people back to britain. one ship is on its way to spain, which is outside the volcano zone. all this should come as a relief to people who have been stuck at those airports just waiting to get home. >> just using the public toilets, really, but there's no shower yet. >> pretty grim at the moment. i should have been flying this afternoon. >> for now i'm going to sleep on a friend's couch and hope that the friendship lasts. >> nbc's dawna friesen joins us live from our london bureau. let's talk about the royal navy getting involved hoping to get people home. >> reporter: yeah, how about that as a way to get home on an aircraft carrier? that is one of the three navy ships being sent out. and they expect they'll be able to take about 15,000 passengers that way. pardon me. that's way too many. i'm talking about luftensa flying their flights. more like about 3,000 passengers they can ferry home on the three naval ships. there is a question of how quickly they can get into place. it may be that by the time they steam their way out there, the air space may be open again so there is some question over whether this is really kind of a political ploy because we're in the middle of an election campaign more than anything else to be seen to be doing something but i guess if you're stranded out there and the ship is coming to get you you're going to be happy about that. >> absolutely. you mentioned luftanza, carrying about 15,000 people, we know there has ban debate featured on nightly news as to whether the flights ned