Today the president defended his Health Care Law against a chorus of disingenuous critics who are suddenly very concerned that people are having trouble signing up through healthcare. Gov. Obama care is, indeed, a train wreck. I mean, a visit to the website is kind of like a trip to the department of Motor Vehicles in your state. Ive heard that theyve had over 8 million hits, and so far, they have people in the Single Digits that have signed up. Ive been online waiting on hold virtually for 89 straight hours, still cant get signed up. Im hearing firsthand the frustrations from my constituents. One constituent said the program freezes up when i try to enter your tax filing status. This is the same Political Movement that just a few months ago was encouraging people to cripple obama care by not signing up. Theres a grassroots effort sweeping the nation to encourage young people to opt out of the law. Most young people dont realize, they have the opportunity to opt out of obama care. Did you know obama care may be hazardous to your health . May be. Ah the burn your obama Care Campaign is about telling young people that this is bad for you. You know, theres only one small problem with this burn your obama care card plan, there are no such things as obama care cards. Conservatives have gone from antiobama care hysterics to complaining about people not being able to use the law in question. Yes, the very same people who said obama care was going to hurt americans these are hard, working class americans who are on the verge of being punished, because as you said, this law was built on broken promises. Are now saying its a shame the government cant get its website to work. In the 21st century, setting up a website where people can go on and buy something is not that complicate ed complicated. Republicans who said the president s Health Care Law will literally kill people repeal this failure before it literally kills women, kills children, kills senior citizens. Those republicans are still skeptical, but now theyre much more reasonable. So, lets make this voluntary for people. If its great, people will sign up. If not, people will find another way. And its not surprising, given the governance record of their last president that republicans seem eager at the opportunity to level the score politically. Jonathan strong tweeted is obama care president obamas iraq war . A conservative columnist with the New York Post tweeted this obama speech could be the equivalent of bush speaking from new orleans two weeks after katrina. 4,489 American Service members and over 100,000 civilians died during the iraq war. 1,833 people died in the waters of katrina. Three weeks into the launch of obama care and the website is indeed buggy. So, next time you hear concern from conservatives about obama care implementation, remember, its best not to take medical advice from an undertaker. Joining me now, former congressman barney frank, democrat from massachusetts. Congressman, i imagine you were quite touched by the out pouring of concern and technical critique and acumen being exhibited by the center right in these days of the obama care rollout. How do you see this as someone who has gone through the Health Care Battles over a set of numerous decades . Well, first, i wish it was coming to the center right. I wish we had a center right. I spent most of my time in politics working with people who are in the center right, whether it was mike oxley when he shared the committee or senator alan simpson. The sad fact of american Politics Today is that the right has eaten up its center. Secondly, obviously, it is hypocrisy, but i do want to be clear, the Obama Administration should be severely krit criesed for this, and i frankly resent it. I worked hard for this health care bill. I had some initial doubts about the political staging. I think we finally got it right. And i regret very much that theyre giving the right wing this kind of ammunition. Having said that, i should note that one of the things they did do, which people should give them credit for, was to start this months before it takes effect. The fact is that this will not have any negative effect on anybody until january 1st. So, while its regrettable that they did a lousy job of getting this, its good that they gave themselves some time. Secondly, having been in the Financial Services area for a while, the notion that the government is somehow pe kuehl culiarly unable to do this is ridiculous. Weve seen the high speed platform messups, weve seen ipos go very badly. So, yeah, they should have done a better job and im critical of them, but i believe that it will be fixed in plenty of time before it hurts anybody. And yeah, there is great hypocrisy. And you know, you also have to say this notion of taking over medical care, we cant get the government take this big role in medical care. Actually, it is medicare. Right. We ought to stress, again, the Government Role in medicare, which not even the most right wing republicans are ready to get rid of these days. They thought about it and backed off, is far greater than it will be under the Affordable Health care act. In medicare, there is much more government involvement in the actual delivery of services. Not only that, i mean, one of the great ironies here is, of course, that the paul ryan plan for medicare, or the most recent iteration of it, would be something that looks a lot like the obama care exchanges. Essentially would be, yes, thats what he wants to do for medicare. In fact, thats what the Republican Party has voted in lockstep partisan line for is essentially government running an exchange that medicare would be phased into. And so, i think that and ill tell you this. Please. When i was in office and i got a complaint from someone who felt that he or she was being treated unfairly with regard to Health Insurance, we and my staff of great people learned right away, if they were people who were on medicare, if they were people who there was government involvement, we would have likely been able to help them if they were treated badly. If they were dealing with the private insurance sector where there wasnt a Government Role, there wasnt anything we could do for them. The people being mistreated by the private health sector, whether out of malice or more often out of incompetence, we couldnt help them. With regard to medicare, we could do a much better job. Finally, congressman, do you think were going to see members of congress, republican members of Congress Come around to actually being genuinely invested in fixing the Affordable Care act, in getting it working as opposed to investing in destroying it, the longer it goes on . No. Look, lets be clear, people ask me, when did bipartisanship end in america . It ended on january 21st, 2009. When george bush came to the Democratic Congress in 2008 and said, you know, as a result of these deregulatory policies he didnt admit that, but, were in a terrible situation, we worked with him. 2009, Mitch Mcconnell announces that his number one goal is to defeat obama, and no, they havent been constructive about anything. They didnt cooperate with us, forget about health care, which you may say is a big ideological problem for them. We couldnt get them to work with us in either the house or the senate constructively on financial reform or trying to regulate derivatives, on setting up a consumer bureau. My favorite example, the office of the printer of the United States, which had to be recess appointed because he was being stonewalled by republicans. Former congressman barney frank, thank you so much. Joining me now, michael dyson, professor of sociology at georgetown university. Medicare funding gets approval, more ohioans through the medicaid expansion, which has gotten less coverage, but is doing a lot more than anything were seeing on the exchanges right now. Absolutely right, and its part of the hypocrisy here, because its been an accepted Governmental Program that the republicans dare not now offer a program, then they support it silently, and the irony is, you wont even let this Fledgling Program yes, bugs aside, get buggy with it on the will smith tip. But the reality is, once they get those bugs out, as the president said today, the stuff is good. What its leading to is great, and its comparable to what youre now defending on the other side here. So, you know, its not a matter of apples and oranges. Its apples and apples, and one of them, one set of green, one set of red, but let it go up, so to speak. Let it mature. This is the argument from democrats. 20 years from now, it will be unthinkable for republicans to oppose obama care. Thats a great way of putting it and thats absolutely right, because it will benefit the very people that they ostensively are protecting. Their populous out there that they say, were speaking on behalf of those people, those people will be so ingratiated, so to speak, with this program that they will be the most ardent defenders. I want to play something that senator james inhofe had to say recently about obama care. Okay. Take a listen. A person can find out here in the United States that he has this emergency situation where hes got to have immediate heart surgery. And if youre in a country other than the United States, a lot of them, you cant get it done. In my case, with my age, it would have been about a sixmonth wait, because i hadnt had a heart attack. And so, the message there is that, you know, i say this to all your american listeners, lets hold on to what weve got here. Youre talking to someone right now who probably wouldnt be here if we had socialized medicine in america. Thats inhofe, who just survived a quadruple bypass. That zombie argument that, a, were socializing medicine, and that b, its terrible everywhere else in the world, refuses to die. Oh, my god, and it flies in the face of logic, because first of all, the exact opposite is true. To talk about obama care as socialized medicine, those of us on left and progressives, hey, where is it . Wed love to see it, but it aint here. Medicare expansions a lot more like socialized medicine. Thats the one doing well. Thats right. Thats what theyre riding on, and they keep suckling from it, but they cannot give acknowledge acknowledgement on the other side. And the flip side is people from all over the world, hey, you know, were over here, if something happens to us, were able to get care immediately. Right. So, this argument about socialized medicine being wrong, on the flip side of that argument is, people in other countries that have access to health care in a broad fashion much more likely are to prevent themselves from getting the emergency kind of treatments that were mandated by his and whats fascinating to me here is the fact that what you end up with is republicans and everyone in the political conversation having to take a hard look at the fact that this thing is here now and people are wrestling with it because the stus quo of what a lot of people have is so terrible. Its bad. That i think is what well see develop more politically as this rollout continues. Msnbc contributor michael eric dyson. Thank you so much. Thank you. Coming up i hope washington, in all seriousness, is listening, because this is impacting people in every state, from every corner of this country, and yet, they are tonedeaf. They will not listen to what the reality is, and that is the shame of all this. Well, at least one person was listening and he took it upon himself to rereport the stories of each of Sean Hannitys guests, and he found drum roll they were completely misleading, and that is being nice about it. You know we love hearing from you on facebook and twitter. Republicans are all of a sudden so genuinely upset and concerned about the glitches on obama cares website, so my question for you tonight is, what rightwing issue are you concerned about and think should be trolled the way republicans are trolling obama care . Tweet your answers to allinwithchris. Ill share a couple at the end of the show. t. [ woman ] the technology in these pads. Best creation ever [ female announcer ] always infinity. The only pad made with foam not fluff so mindblowingly thin, youll be surprised its up to 55 more absorbent. Genius. Always infinity. Overmany discounts to thine customers [old english accent] safe driver, multicar, paid in full a most fulsome bounty indeed, lord jamie. Thou cometh and we thy saveth what are you doing . We doth offer so many discounts, we have some to spare. Oh, you have any of those homeowners discounts . Here we go. Thank you. He took my shield, my lady. These are troubling times in the kingdom. More discounts than we knoweth what to do with. Now thats progressive. You may be muddling through allergies. Try zyrtecd®. Powerful relief of nasal congestion and other allergy symptoms all in one pill. Zyrtecd®. At the pharmacy counter. Now, theres no question that businesses are being negatively impacted by obama care. Now, they are not the only ones. Average americans, their families are also feeling the pain, thanks to the Health Care Overhaul train wreck. And six of them, theyre here with us tonight to tell their story, which, by the way, the media ignores. Weve been talking about the famed concern conservatives are showing for obama care and its implementation, but the most infamous example of this kind of thing, the crown jewel of conservative health care concern trolling comes from that sean hannity special earlier this month. And not simply because the outright falsehoods that were told about the Health Care Law, but because after hannity brought on those average americans, the three couples, to tell their obama care horror stories, something about it just didnt ring true. Eric stern, a contributor to salon. Com, saw the show and decided to pick up the phone, do some reporting. He spoke to the actual guests and discovered their worries, well, had some holes. Stern first talked with paul cox, who along with his wife, michelle, told Hannity Obama care was limiting the growth of their business. And youd like to hire fulltime employees. We would love to. So, youre going to keep them below 30 hours . Exactly. Wed have to keep them below 30 hours, or not that we wouldnt want to pay it, we just wouldnt be able to stay in business and pay it. The provision of obama care theyre talking about requiring all fulltime workers be offered Health Insurance from their employers only applies to businesses with 50 or more employees. Stern wrote that mr. Cox revealed his company has only four employees, or in other words, their company will not be affected by that provision of obama care. So, what was with all the talk about cutting back workers and accruing costs . There was a long pause, wrote stern. After which he said hed call me back. He never did. Next, he called up kurt and alison, who said this. We dont have insurance for our daughter, who has a preexisting condition, so were looking at probably 20,000 in premiums next year. 19,000. Yeah. Which is how much higher than what it was . Twice as high . Well twice as high. Stern reported that, assuming the couple didnt smoke and was eligible for subsidies, they would get a plan for less than 8,000 a year through obama care, which would include their daughter and her preexisting condition. Finally, stern spoke to the last of three couples, robbie and tina robinson. Our new policy that we can have wont have the same benefits to it. Anything similar, though, is going to rise between like 50 to 72 and it will have things in it that we have no choice, like well have to have maternity benefits, and were not planning on having any more kids. After that couple told eric stern they had no plans to go on healthcare. Gov and actually look for a better deal because they oppose obama care in principle, want nothing to do with it, stern found them a plan thats more than 60 less than their current bill. Im pleased to be joined by eric stern from salon. Com, also deputy secretary of state for montana, senior counsel to former governor of montana, democrat brian sweitzer. Eric, you write in the piece that something about watching this did not sit right with you. What was it . You know, based on what i know about the act, about the Affordable Care act, it just didnt sound right. Nothing that these people were saying sounded like they were really, like, it really would matter come january 1st. And basically, so, i just it just had a funny smell to it, and so, i basically just googled them and i searched them and i picked up the phone and i had a series of conversations with them. And generally, they were pretty helpful. And you know, i want to make clear, they believe they are pessimistic about the upcoming Affordable Care act. They believe its going to be a train wreck, for lack of a better expression. And so, i dont know that they were being dishonest. Paul cox, maybe, but generally speaking, i think theyre just afraid. And the real fault lies with hannity for trying to claim that these people represent the train wreck. Right. Its ridiculous. Well, what you have to do if youre producing that show is you have to vet the stories of the people that are coming on your show to tell you this are actually what they say they are and actually fit under something that obama care changes or would make worse. Right. And obviously, you know, they didnt hannitys producer didnt do his homework. Hannity obviously didnt ask basic questions of anybody prior to running the story and i think its inexcusable. I think you have to do basic work if youre going in front of however many viewers he has, 2, 3 million. Youve got to do your homework. Heres the thing i found fascinating about the episode is i remember this period of time where dick cheney was sort of planting seeds about weapons of mass destruction in iraq and he was running this crazy information laundering operation, which he would plant a story, you know, through judith miller, appear on the New York Times have, go on meet the press and then report in the New York Times. And a lie would repeat itself. These are conservatives, theyre fox news viewers, theyre getting a lot of information about obama care from watching fox, reading the conservative media, then theyre going on fox to give their reallife testimonials based on not information about how theyre actually interacting with the law but based on the tales theyve been told on fox itself. Yeah, thats correct. In other words, theyre in an echo chamber and theres a fencedin garden around the whole thing, and there is this enormous section of america that basically just wants to listen to fox and want to be up in arms about something and they want to be outraged about obama. And it gets to the point where its not even its no longer advocacy. If hannity wanted to be an advocate against obama care, theres a lot of arguments he could make, theres a lot of research he could do. He could do stories about, for example, why the exchange crashed or why it wasnt working. I think theres a lot of i would be interested in that story if he did that, because i would like to see somebody who is sort of, you know i like adversarial journalism, but this is not even this is just a madeup thing. Its not even its not even advocacy journalism. Its literally just made up out of whole cloth and its nonsense, and he ought to be ashamed of it. You said one of the people you if you canned to, mr. Cox, i believe, you feel he did kind of know that what was happening didnt actually com port with what was being communicated on the program. No, i mean, i think he said he doesnt want to hire hes keeping his workers part time. He doesnt want to go full time with them. He has four employees. Because he is concerned about costs. Now, he could argue that he has some sort of global concern about the sort of general costs to everybody about obama care coming down the pike. Right. But its not really and what that points out, too, is employers having keeping people part time are not growing for years, and now they have this wonderfully convenient excuse in obama care which they are invoking any chance they can get and i have heard that up and down the line. Salon. Coms eric stern, thank you for joining us. Its homecoming night for senator ted cruz, welcomed back into the arms of conservatives in texas. There are signs of buyers remorse in the lonestar state. Thats ahead. Any moment, senator ted cruz will take the stage at his big Homecoming Party in houston, texas. You see a live shot of that right there. Just two days ago, senator cruz received a standing ovation from Texas Federation of republican womens state convention in san antonio, texas. Thank you. That is a slightly different reception than i get in washington, d. C. And having spent the past month up in d. C. , it is really great to be back in america. Get it . Earlier the same day, cruz spoke to the Texas Medical Association in austin, texas. Just a quick recap, in case you found that confusing. Senator cruz, having flown in from the foreign country of washington, d. C. , to his home state of texas, is right now celebrating his great big homecoming in his home state of texas. The Houston Tea Party is more than willing to offer up its adoration, but cruz has become one of the most polarizing figures in national politics. He almost singlehandedly shut down the government. And this weekend he showed no regret and no recalibration. The House Republicans marched into battle courageously, and the Senate Republicans should have come in like the cavalry to support them. Unfortunately, a significant chunk of Senate Republicans instead came like the air force and began bombing the House Republicans, our own troops. However, even on the home front, there are signs that all is not well. As the Houston Chronicle notably unendorsed the senator. When we endorsed ted cruz in last novembers general election, we did with many reservations and one recommendation that he follow senator Kay Bailey Hutchisons example in conduct as a senator. Obviously, he has not done so. Cruz has been part of the problem where hutchison would have been part of the solution. Evan smith, the texas tribune, is it the case that the more rerivaled ted cruz is by fellow republicans in the senate, the less popular he gets nationally and the polls show his National Approval rating just absolutely plunging does that solidify his support in the independentminded state of texas . Oh, most definitely. The more that washington hates him, the more that texas loves him. The more that the liberal jackles of the media attack him it makes him stronger. When the New York Times or the Washington Post or msnbc attack him, that is spinach and he is popeye. It makes him stronger. Okay, but heres the question. The attacks from cruz have been coming from, you know, people such as myself, it also come from sort of more mainstream or beltway publications. Its come from a lot of conservatives, too. And my question is, the texas donor class, the folks in texas that are writing the checks, the folks in texas who run Big Oil Companies that dont want to see the government default, for instance, okay, how is this affecting their relationship to ted cruz, their understanding of him . Well, if it is affecting their relationship, theyre not talking about it publicly. Privately, some republicans may grumble. Some republicans say, gee, by the standards of ted cruz, i must be a liberal. These are people who have been republicans for a long time, who bankrolled mainstream conservative republicans for some time, but thats what they say privately. Publicly, they cant possibly speak out against this guy. Publicly, the republicans support this guy. Publicly, he gets Standing Ovations like the one you showed in san antonio, an eightminute standing ovation from the Texas Federation of republican women. The Republican Party of texas loves this guy. He said he would do the things he went to washington to do. Hes done them. And of course, hes getting the kind of welcome that a conquering hero gets when he returns back from the battle. We were doing the series during the shutdown called these are the people who are running the country, looking at the House Republican caucus. And i couldnt help but notice how many of the folks that signed on to this defund obama care letter were in texas. Thats right. The texas delegation seems to be it really seems to be the epicenter of the kind of politics that we saw that brought us to the shutdown. Yeah, well, you know, Louis Gohmert and Steve Stockman are the most extreme examples in the texas delegation, but the reality is, the vast majority of the republicans in the texas delegation, dare i say all the republicans, were right there alongside ted cruz. They didnt see any difference between their position and his. Now, again, privately, some of them may roll their eyes and say, well, were not sure that his tactics would be our tactics, but everybody in the texas delegation is in sync. This is the federal republic of antiobama. Right. We may not have seceded literally, but we may as well have, at least in the mind of many of these guys. Washington, d. C. , could be a million miles away, for all this know. Heres the question, is there a Tipping Point . Weve seen other states in which weve had unified republican governance, a lurch to the right, often on the backs of a 2010 victory and then redistricting. Were seeing this in north carolina, we saw it in florida, in which there is backlash, right . Right. There is too far you can go, even in a fairly conservative state. Texas is quite a conservative state. Is there a sense from the electorate that you might be edging towards that point . Well, wendy daviss candidacy for governor and the fact that democrats have something to rally around for the first time in about 20 years gives some hope to people on the left that they can fight back against this. But the key bloc is not the democrats, its the few remaining moderate republicans who up to this point have cast their lot with the conservatives. And the question going into the next election and the next legislative session is whether the moderate republicans are able to speak up and say, at whatever rk it poses for them, weve had enough, were going to join with the other guys and try to reset the pendulum. So far, very little evidence, at least publicly, that theyre willing to do that. Well, and they can all look at what happened in the ted cruz senatorial primary in which the person coded as moderate, who himself was quite conservative, got his butt kicked handily. Evan smith from the texas tribune, thank you so much. Well be right back. There is big news today on a story that has the whole country talking. The latest from maryville, missouri, coming up. First, the three awesomest things on the internet today. We begin with photoshop wizardry from an online favorite. Congressman jay raidle jumped on the obama care troll wagon today with this tweet, why isnt president obama using obama care . Adding maybe hes trying to logon or call right now. In response, i christened today National Troll day. My tweet didnt escape the eye of photoshopper known as dart. While some work in oils or water colors, he works in photoshops. Theyre always hilarious. He took the poster from the horror film troll and gave it a new leading man in congressman radle. Its not first time hes delivered the goods for all in. During the shutdown, i asked him, what does 20 million lit on fire look like . And this was born. Some artist at the sistine chapel, he has ted cruz with a flaming pile of cash. The second awesomest thing on the internet, a football twofer. First, the ohio state marching band performed a tribute to Michael Jackson this weekend, and while it was really cool, the buckeye band actually brought a gigantic moonwalking king of pop to life on the field. Heres the video of the choreographeroutine sped up to give you a full sense of how well done the whole thing was. And while the skill on display is something to cheer for, the nfls Kansas City Chiefs had real celebrating to do when they survived the weekend as the only Undefeated Team in the league and nobody was happier than coach andy reid. [ cheers and applause ] thank you yeah that enthusiastic entrance reminded lsufreak of something from pop culture past. Hey oh, yeah here comes koolaid with that, retreated to this masterful gift. If you cant get the ohio state marching band to do the moonwalk for you, this will cheer you up. And the third awesomest thing on the internet today, were months away from the Christmas Lights displays but the trend has crossed over to halloween and this one really speaks to this moment in time. What does the fox say ding, ding, ding, na, ding, na, ning what does the fox say pow, pow, pow, pow, pow, what does the fox say good thing halloween is less than a week away because that song is definitely up. Ion in 6s. Big plans. So when i found out medicare doesnt pay all my medical expenses, i looked at my options. Then i got a Medicare Supplement insurance plan. [ male announcer ] if youre eligible for medicare, you may know it only covers about 80 of your part b medical expenses. The rest is up to you. Call now and find out about an aarp Medicare Supplement insurance plan, insured by unitedhealthcare insurance company. Like all standardized Medicare Supplement insurance plans, it helps pick up some of what medicare doesnt pay. And could save you in outofpocket medical costs. 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Call now to request your free decision guide. And learn more about the kinds of plans that will be here for you now and down the road. I have a lifetime of experience. So i know how important that is. Maryville, missouri, finds itself in the midst of a National Firestorm over allegations that a teenaged girl was sexually assaulted, and most of the charges in the case were dropped. Big news today in a case that has prompted national outrage. Missouri has chosen a special prosecutor to investigate the alleged rape of two teenaged girls by a group of boys who were initially let off the hook. The details of the case out of maryville an hour and a half north of kansas city are absolutely horrific. The girls, who were 13 and 14 at the time, say they were Drinking Alcohol and watching scary movies last january when they snuck out to meet up with a 17yearold football player. One of the girls, stacy coleman, says the boy drove the pair to a small party in his basement where he handed her a tall glass of clear alcohol, urged her to drink it, and thats where her memory of that night gives out. When she woke up on her front lawn, daisy wrote on the website xojane, she was sick and freezing and bruised, her hair in dicey chunks. Her mother brought her inside for a bath where she discovered injuries consistent with rape. The rape kit verified her nightmare was real. She later found out that her best friend said she had been raped as well. The boys involved were arrested and charged, but despite the fact there was reportedly a cell phone recording of the alleged attack on daisy, the local prosecutor dropped felony charges against the boys, citing insufficient evidence to prove a criminal charge and an unwillingness of the witnesses to testify. The boys said the sex was consensual. It was later reported that daisys alleged attacker was the grandson of a longtime missouri political figure. In an interview, a local prosecutor said the matter involved drinking and sex, involving incordable teenagers, saying the boys were doing what they wanted to do and there werent any consequences, and its reprehensible, but criminal, no. Daisy and her brother say they were harassed in the aftermath of the incident. Daisy was suspended from the cheerleader team, accused of asking for it. She twice attempted suicide and the family fled maryville. Reporter when we talk to people here in maryville, missouri, everyone had an opinion, either in favor of the boys or in favor of the girls, but no one wanted to talk about it. Daisy and her mother eventually went public in a radio interview and blockbuster story in the kansas city star, published 21 months after the attack. A website took up the case, comparing to the infamous rape case last year in steubenville, ohio. They lamented that we have heard daisys story far too often. The story helped daisy gain national attention, which they have embraced. Her best friend has since gone public about the incident as well. I not only survived, i didnt give up, daisy wrote upon the prosecutor reopening the case. She add aid this is a victory for me and every other girl. Sonia is the president of the National Organization for women and cofounder of a long walk home, Nonprofit Organization that oozes art to end violence against girls and women. And journalist rebecca tracer of author of big girls dont cry the election that changed everything for american women. This case has blown up, i think its fair to say. Its blown up in the way no case has blown up i think since steubenville. Why do you think it has captured something in the national attention, because these kinds of incidents, its horrifying to say, happen far more often than they end up on the front pages. They happen all the time, and i think its really important that we look at whats different about this case. This case, there was a witness in the friend, paige parker, there was reportedly an iphone video taken, there was a family that was willing to come forward and a mother who was empowered enough and recognized the signs of rape the morning that she found her daughter and took her straight to a hospital. Despite all of these things that make this case seem so horrifying to us, still with all that behind it, it literally didnt get prosecuted. So, imagine and all those things are very unusual, because in most cases like this that happen all the time all over america to all kinds of people, there arent sober witnesses, there arent iphone videos, there are far greater areas and late reporting and anxiety about coming forward. And so, i think we should really consider what is so unusual about this case and then multiply it by how many times we dont have those things. I would also add to all of the things that rebecca just said, its also the Ripple Effect of the case, right, so that the mother lost her job, that the house that was on sale was burned down. So, one of the things that we do know it burned. We dont know if it burned down. Burned, right. Under mysterious circumstances. That may or may not be connected to the case. And her attempted suicide, thats part of my argument here. One of the things we do know is that violence against girls and women begets more violence, so that its also unusual in the sense of how much violence we see used against the mother, the daughter, the brother, the kind of emotional and maybe physical terror that theyre experiencing. And also, i think, the way which is similar to the steubenville case, the way in which it seems like there are a significant portion of the community that has taken a position that from the outside seems just completely morally abominable, right, which is the defense of these alleged assailants and not the survivors. You know, one has to wonder if, because it seems so just out of character, and so many people are compassionate, caring people who think rape is terrible. Yes. Is it a coping method that we have . Because if we deal with reality, the fact that 1. 3 million women, 1. 3 million were raped or fended off rapists in 2010, according to the cdc, who has named this a National Health crisis in this nation nation. The reality that then would be that, basically, women are just randomly raped all the time, is it a way to think of, well, this is the way it wont happen to me or my daughter. Compartmentalize. I want to talk about this case and steubenville and the phenomenal with a High School Student actress who is playing the role of the 16yearold Sexual Assault survivor in an off broadway play that is getting a lot of attention here in new york. Stay with us. Oh. [ female announcer ] stress sweat smells the worst. And secret clinical strength gives you four times the protection against it. Secret clinical strength. Earlier in the show, we asked you what rightwing issue are you concerned about. We got a lot of answers posted to our facebook and twitter. Cassy said gun control. Every time the tea party held a vote to repeal or defund obama care, threatening to shut down the government over it, the senate should send the house a gun control bill. And debra says do you want the list numerically or alphabetically . Thanks, well be right back. Were back. Were back. Im here with sonia ossaria and rebecca tracer, joined by winnie, who plays the lead character joey in the offbroadway production of shut the play about a High School Rape whose details were hauntingly similar to those at issue in the maryville case. And if im not mistaken, you and the other folks in the play wrote this together as High School Young Women engaged in living the reality of this. Right. I mean, a lot of what we aim to do in the production of slut the play is to basically just present a reality, and were high school girls, we live it every single day. And although i might not have the same experiences as the character i play, what our play aims to do is give a voice to even every girl living in a slut shame and culture. There is a detail thats in the play, and that is a detail that is common to the play and to the steubenville case and to the maryville case, and that is drinking to excess, right, that in all cases, the survivor was very drunk, blackout drunk. Right. Do High School Students understand in your world consent and someone being blackout drunk as being something that by definition denies the possibility of consent . You know, i think if you ask that question to your average high schooler, im sure theyd say, yeah, we understand the meaning of consent. But when youre put in a scenario where there is a lot of alcohol and most everybody should probably be beyond the realm of consent right, thats a good point. I think, actually, the lines are really heavily blurred by some of the most smart and on the ball students, especially where i go to school. Thats a really interesting point. I think the flip side of that argument is do adults understand this . Because its not clear that they do. Its not clear that the lack of affirmative consent from someone who is inebriated past the point of being able to affirmatively give it is definitionally nonconsensual sex. Thats at issue here, and its not just the case of its just teenagers who have this sense. No, of course not. When feminists talk about rape culture, one of the things were talking about is a culture in which rape is assumed as a kind of norm, and it assumes that men out there are just waiting animals, predators. Waiting to rape and that women are by definition rapable and that it is in fact up to them to make choices and engage in behaviors to prevent themselves from this normal activity. And to me, this is, too often when we talk about rape and sex, we confuse the two. And i think that one of the things that we lose is that rape and sex are very Different Things and rape is about power, whereas sex in an ideal world should be about connection, demand connection is consent. But i want to add, because i feel like the alcohol conversation oftentimes, its really important when we talk about Sexual Violence in rape culture, but i sometimes think it kind of clouds the real rape culture that we exist in. I was sexually assaulted in college. I wasnt drunk. I wasnt incapacitated, and im pretty certain that i would have been blamed for my Sexual Assault. So, its the only crime in which we overidentify with the perpetrator and automatically victim blame. Why is that . Why do we do that . I think its part of what you were saying earlier not wanting to identify with the helplessness or powerlessness of a victim on one hand. But i think because it disproportionately affects women, because its part of how patriarchy reproduces itself, i think its normal, and people now think its kind of a natural expression of male aggression or male sexuality pch so, i just think there are so many components to our go on. Our legal system has really but buttresses what she said. If you look at the evolution of rape laws, it wasnt that long ago where, you know, a womans private sex life was completely open to be scrutinized in court. It was also not long ago that it was legally impossible for a woman to be raped by her husband. Absolutely. Those laws are still being changed week by week, those laws are being overturned. And if you look globally, you have countries in peru, if the rapist asks for the victims hand in marriage, hes absolved himself because hes given her back her dignity. Just one example. One of the things i think is striking about this case and these cases is the presence of the publicness of social media combined. So, like, teenagers drinking is not a new phenomenon. It has been going on for a long time. Sexual predatory behavior by young men towards young women is also not new. Right. Which is not to excuse in any way, but it is not new. Part of what makes this so combustible is the presence of social media, the fact that in this case, we think that there was an iphone video. The fact from the stauben en steubenville case, there was an iphone video. How do you understand the way that social media, the way that the publicness of an average teenager changes, like, how people in your generation are thinking about each other and sex . Right. I think especially with this, like, overpresence of social media and where were always being told our mistakes are permanent, the things that we do online can carry offline. I think thats one thing thats so ludicrous about this case is that should be used to the advantage of the victim, and the people fighting for her. If there was a permanent mistake made by the rapists in the video, that should be something thats taken advantage of, so yeah that is a great point, right . That, like, the mistake you make of posing in some photo is permanent, but the mistake you made of allegedly committing a Sexual Assault and having it recorded, that somehow ends up expunged. Right. And i also think it proves how literally, actually or how literal we take rape seriously, right . So that people can record evidence that can be used against them in the court of law and do it so willingly and so carelessly and then circulate it to the point where her brother can see it. So, i think if we actually took rape if rapists understood that they could actually be prosecuted for it, they could go to jail for it, if there were actual punishments consistently meteed out to rapests there is clearly no fear of rekrimsion. I wanted to get the statistic as we know them. Its a hard thing to quantify, its something thats underreported, incidents of rape, Sexual Assaults. This is just incidents from the department of justice, 243,800 Sexual Assaults in 2011. That is far below the estimate you gave, based on a survey methodology. My question is, is it Getting Better or worse . It feels sometimes like its getting worse, but then i wonder if its just because were hearing about more cases. I think were hearing about more cases and i do think that there are i think that one of the slow ways in which contemporary feminist conversation is making progress is that we are having conversations like this. The slut walks movement, which i was critical of, i think has done a lot to advance the conversation. Young feminists, young women talking about their experiences, perhaps social media bringing it to the attention, cases like steubenville, now maryville. The conversation where at least cultivating a new awareness at the fact that it happens, i dont think its making the behavior better. I think the behavior is consistent. There is also a very public and present voice to say, going to the house of older boys and drinking does not mean that you deserve what you get afterwards or that there is nothing, that there are no recriminations, that all the rules for consent go outlook the window
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