Elites, government using warfare to prop up their regimes and an effective relief progrgrams are feedining a vicioious cycle thas proving extremely difficult to break. To talk about why this famine is so extreme, white aid programs are coming up short, and what can be done to turn this around, i am joined in the studio by Kiflemariam Gebrewold cofounder of africa works, and a blogger. He says what we truly need is a europeanafrican relations and how we can complement each other. The eurocentric notion of helping africa is not a part of that. Also, with us, Kiflemariam Gebrewold. He has worked for different ngos and the development sector. Last year, he came back from where he where human worked for 10 years. He believes that developmental programs are useless and until today, no country has been developed through development aid. Also with us is Dagmar Dehmer, an editor at the newspaper,. Agesspiegel she says the famine Warning System works well but the aid system only begins to work when we start seeing pictures of starving children. Welcome, everyone for being here today. Welcome to the show. First, i would like to start with our climate correspondent, Dagmar Dehmer, on the scope of the crisis. How bad is it . Two years ago, experts are coming. Why the panicked response now . Dagmar that action happens all the time. We knew, in time, it would come. We knew more or less how it would play out in east africa. It is of course not the first time. It is always like that. There aree warnings. Everybody knows about it. Aid organizations are already warning, but no one is really listing until the pressure is there. Youn Kiflemariam Gebrewold have just returned from ethiopia. What happened . Why every are we hearing about this only now . Kiflemariam we have a very good early Warning System, since 1995, but we do not have an early response. Equippednments are not to respond quickly. They have toim show first the small African Child with a big belly in order to get funds mobilized, otherwise, people wont give them. What week need is to take the governments to task to mobilize their own resources. After a certain degree, the Ethiopian Government has done so, otherwise the situation would be worse. Brian in your opinion, why are we fighting about this so late . Jorg from my perspective, the problem with the european notion of developing africa has been entirely the wrong approach. When we were talking about helping and eating, we in fact perverted the morally good idea of assisting and supporting one another and turning it into a billiondollar industry which has no impact. Situationlk about the on the ground, there is no impact. We have to come to understand that, as europeans, we cannot apply twodimensional, so to speak, ideas of good governments or democracy, and solve a tree ridimeonal t problem. Nsional brian you are jumping the gun a bit. You are saying that we have false expectations in terms of the situation on the ground. Jorg that is correct. Brian do you agree with that . Kiflemariam yes. The notion for the last 65 years is we develop you. Nobody said, how can we develop these nations by their own resources. How can we mobilize their own capacities and abilities and how can we enter into a relationship that is looking i die and not eye to eye and not one side is the sender and one side is the giver. Brian you have established that the system right now is broken different reasons. Your ideas are shared by a man who is part of the old ethiopian elite. He just published a book about the vicious circle of poverty and migration. All of these issues come together. Poverty, famine, warfare. He says that the governments of africa, and here as well, they are failing to make sure the relief gets to the right programs and the right people. Lets hear what he has to say. In my opinion, one of the main reasons for african migration is poor government. An estimated 2 billion of economic aid has flowed into africa over the last 40 years. From all over the world. Blog, during that time, the lives of average africans have not changed much at all. That is simply absurd. And, the governments are responsible for it. The politicians treat this aid money like it is their own private fortune. What is particularly upspsetting is the a african dictators, and some of them have been in power for 30 or 40 years, are taking advantage of funds that have been provided d by european taxpayers. Kiflemariam gebrewold lets come back to you on this. You are just back from ethiopia. The prince is from that country. Is he right . Isnt that corrupt . Kiflemariam if you consider it on the african skate, we have ample evidence now that the number of foreign aid moneys have been dwindling and going through the e wrong hands. Simply because, so far, the funds were relatively hard to get. Proposal, and they get some sort of money. Also, for the western world, it was a large way of making your political mark by giving aid. Happen,e, for this to if corruption is happening, we know the latest, since the panama papers, that system thections with two sides one e that is corrupt and the oe that takes over money, the financial institutions. Brian well get to that in a second. You have done a lot of reporting and east africa, does your research corroborate what we just heard . Dagmar in part, of course. A state like the german state can only deal with another state. There you are exactly at the center of these corrupt elites. It is obvious. Brian you have to work with them. Dagmar you have to work with them. You cannot work around them. Someannot treat them like relatives you dont want to deal with. You cannot work in a country if you do not deal with the if you are estate. Of course you can do it on other levels, but that becomes worse and worse because the african governments are not stupid. They know what is going gone. If you try to help Civil Society organize itself, this is a political power which might go against him, or, in some cases, her. Of course, they dont want that to continue. They make ngo laws that make it impopossible to help such Civil Society movements to grow. Brian jorg, you have been in east africa. To bringany is devoted the African Diaspora back to africa. Perversity brain drain. Is the system broken . Jorg first of all, the system is functioning in its own matter. There are those who have gotten around to live in that system. We are not talking about the same state structure that we have here. For is the m message i have europeans. We have to come to accept the fact that for society, any society, to grow and prosper, it needs organic growth of state structures. It needs an adherence, societal conviction, so to speak, a culture of accountability at responsibility. Brian those are huge goals. Jorg huge goals. I know this will take generations, but we have never given it a chance. All we have done is patronize the continent with the notion that it needs to be developed. Language is powerful. Who am i to judge who is developed or not developed in the case of having no money or no status, when you look at use africa or uganda, uganda is the best example. Were talking about oil resources. The country is rich, we just all have state structures. That is the problem. You can only give this a chance if you allowed the young ones, and i think the dias print plays a role in this, to contribute to the rebuilding of those structures. Brian it is all about giving people the opportunity to contribute. Jorg it is about us and letting go. Brian of what . Jorg are patronizing attitude. Brbrian what should it be replaced by . Jorg small and Mediumsized Enterprises from european continent or the north american continent. Anyone from manufacturers to medical kit aid supplies to logistic companies. Anyone who can create a job on the ground can automatically create another two or three jobs either in the informal or formal sector. Brian we just heard there is incredible corruption in these areas. Inherent problem in creating this reality on the ground . Dagmar in east africa, and that is what i want to talk about, you have a situation that, even in kenya, which is the most developed of those, you have no real strong institutions. You do not have a judicial system which is working like the system we are used to in europe. You have a j judicial system whe you have to convict this guy because of whatever. It can always happen. If you have institutions that are circling around the president , you always have the problem that when the president changes, he will throw out. Verybody with some experience then, you have the same situation all again. We, only in part, can help that. That has to develop on itself. Brian Kiflemariam Gebrewold is your view and vision of what can happen, naive . In practical . Is it too visionary . Kiflemariam i think the mobilization of the resources of these countries is a central point. We have been working on a cargo cultural principle. It does not work that way. There is no nation. I want to emphasize. Development has to come from inside. That means, when you take the aample of kenya, we have thousand Million Dollars in nairobis. E these why are they not mobilizing . Are a donationbased approach. What we need is a development approach. That means to mobilize the resources and take the people of the country to task. Brian in kenya alone . Kiflemariam kenya alone. If you take south sudan, i think that is the most glaring and current example where a state is destroyed the economy of the country just for the sake of staying in power. We are not ready. The diplomats and the german ambassador in kenya, he is not ready to say who the culprits are. Naming and shaming. That would be one approach. Issue that is a central in the catastrophe unfolding. Have we as journalists failed . I am getting that impression. Have we fallen down on this . Dagmar of course we have failed. Payingnot really correspondence on the ground. That is where it starts. We have the same issues as our government has. Brian let me jump in. We need more paid african correspondence in english and german getting the word back to us what is realllly happeningng . Dagmar exactly. Not been, africa has seen as such an important continent. We pay for a correspondent in washington, but not for one in nairobi. Of course, without the xrays, we have a big problem understanding the structures. If you are there once in a while, you have no idea what is going gone. Brian i want to jump in that dw has made a real commitment. We have reporters on the ground. It is something new. We are certainly proud of that. Jorg, what do you think of this . How do we get a real assessment of what is happening so britain if i what are the broken areas and how to fix them . Jorg an assessment as such is maybe not even possible. I want to go even further than what you said. I believe we are dealing with a structural problem since the beginning of the 1960s, whether independent surge of the african states. Europeans have not really managed to grasp her fully understand the african continent. I know thahat is a very devastating statement, but i truly believe that. With theas to deal fact that we dont understand its polarity, diversity, dynamics, let alone its size. I always encourage people to googled the true size of africa map which was published a few years ago by the economist. It sucks up north america, europe, and parts of asia. We come in and tried to transfer our wellintentioned ideas of good government, democracy, and we have not really made an impact on the ground. Brian does democracy have a role . What im hearing is democracy is not something that can play a role in helping africa. Kiflemariam i think we should stick to democracy. We dont know a much better system of control, checks and balances, then democracy. A number of african governments, and others, are trying to if democracy as does not work for africa. It works for africa given that those in power are playing by the rules. I think that is a fundamental thing. Blending it with traditional african checks and balances, and the role of the elders, african checks and balanceces tt we h have not discovered which have been completely thrown out of the system, that is a thing that i think we need to do. That you were saying ethnic divisions have been used, especially in south sudan, to keep people in power, and weapons are a key part of that. Can you expand on that . How weapons and ammunition are playing a role right now. Kiflemariam the case in south sudan is showing us what happened when 6051 african countries became independent. You had a brutal and long 40 to fight. The government is in place, but does not want to share with the ethnic ors of the political spectrum. They are using the war. The famine ist not a byproduct of the war i in south sudan. It is the goal itself. How does it happen . A number of arms have been delivered their. The shelf life of the ak47 has 2530 years. What they need now is ammunition. Brian who is providing ammunition . Kiflemariam different countries. China, belarus. There are e speculations that se come from belgium. Which you can do the weapons with ammunition, you can do anything. . Rian Dagmar Dehmer dagmar the politics behind it arare seldom understood or even taken into notion. No one is really interested in which political faction is heading which political faction. In europe, you get the impression or in the german public, you get the impression it might be the right guys, and if they kill each other, why potter bother . Brian what do you say as far as europeing interests in and east africa, beyond the famine. The problelems that lead up to , ones . Human once . Jorg what i like to do is bring up stories of daily life, bring some normality into the european norm narrative about africa. Revealing all these years is a never ending tell of catastrophe. I have a very exciting story to tell about a friend whos sister leaderming an opposition in uganda. She is in fact what i am talking about. She represents a Younger Generation is trying to remind the president , who has been in power for 30 years, with really nothing to show, of his promises during his campaign. Part of that was handing out sanitary pads for girls. She is using social media, and using it in a very provocative manner timber to remind that they are in charge of what they so clearly seek as their rights. We have to trust the young generation. They have a feeling that there is a big gap between them and the older ones. Brian what would be your message to the Younger Generation to help them move their nations, the regions forward, despite the famine and the problems we have been talking about . Kiflemariam i just returned ys back. Ya a few da we know that in kenya there is a system which is to transfer money by mobile. It was designed and implement it, now, exported to kenya. The young people have done that. I think there are a number of sectors where that creativity has to come up and of course, to fight for a room for space. Operating space. Civil society operating space. That is something that is lacking in africa. The young ones are taking up in terms of social media. In termsew dimension of promoting ideas without necessarily running on the streets. Brian briefly if you could, we are wrapping things up, do you see the young as the hope for east africa . Dagmar absololutely. It is not always the big factory that brings development, but the young that are growing and can maybe become big event. If they understand that, they take a lesson from german development. Brian what do you think in terms of the jasper returning spora ds breath dia returning home . Jorg they play a bigger role. There are 3 million academics from africa living in europe. Survey showed that half of them would be returning home if they had the opportunity, a career perspective in their country. That is what we are trying to tackle here. If those people came back, they would have a great impact on the ground. They are coming back with telik, expertise, and it could really change and shape their societies. Brian is this the best way forward . Kiflemariam i think so. I agree that the diaspora has a huge potential. There are vast numbers, usually well organized, theyey have knowledge and expertise. I do know that some of them are spoilers. That is probably a minority. They are intervening into their societies and trying to change things while sitting in new york or berlin. Diaspora, sothedi i know what i and talking about. I do not think we have seriously votes,them into the trying to organizing them, and how can they be an interface betweeeen where e they live, industrial light countries, and africa. I think this potential has not been exploited. Brian it has been a pleasure to be with all the putative, identify not only the problem, but some ways forward. And, some possible solutions as well to the famine in east africa. I would like to think my guests today. Jorg kleis, Kiflemariam Gebrewold, Longtime Development aid worker, and Dagmar Dehmer, journalist at the berlinbased tagesspiegel. Take you for joining us as well. We would like to hear from you on the comment section, drop us an even, or twitter. I look forward to seeing you again here at quadriga. Global 3000 travels to south africa this week, where onlyly w cheetahs remain in the wild. Now, dogs are to ensure their survival. In greece, we go to a refugee camp whose residents find a new purpose in life by doing things themselves. But first, we head for thailands beaches. In the past few years, theyve been discovered by chinese tourists. Tourism is one of the most Important Industries worldwide the number of people who travel every year, has risen from 25 million in 1950, to over 1. 2 billion today