Andnating the headlines global politics. Our question is, women and equality . , progress or backlash . To discuss that question im joined with three women who i know all have strong views about the subject. ,eginning witith Anna Sauerbrey she says in the age of populism, fefeminism faces new challenges and the struggle is far from over. Also with this is meera jamal, a freelance journalist from pakistan and editor of journalist and a salt newsletter. She says womens rights are basic human rights, and its about time that women be treated as equal humans. And oh warm welcome to karen taylor, and active activist in germany. She believe its not just donald that, putin, and erdogan are blocking quality for all women. Welcome to you all. Lets begin with Anna Sauerbrey. International womens day has been celebrated for 100 years now. Why is it Still Necessary . Anna i think the answer is quite easy, as long as there is no equality between women and men, we need International Womens day and we need feminism and we need to find more equality so we can have it some day and hopefully not too far in the near future. You haveera jamal written a pollen for International Womens day and i thought it was very interesting in the point, you said every inan still remains shackled thorny chains. I suppose the question is, or all women, in your view, shackled and unfree . Meera yes, to a certain extent. The family system and Society Still puts us in a place where we have to watch out and be careful and stay in our place. Otherwise we wont the accepted. Peter tell us about your family. I know you were forced to leave pakistan because you were so committed to womens rights issues. Meera the moment i started writing in the newspaper, my focus was on womens rights. My mother had been working on womens rights herself. I thought it was not a major issue until i went into the field and saw how women were treated outside my home. Raped, girls being minors were being raped. So these issues about womens equality is a leading issue. The basic rights for women even in the Islamic State are not being provided over there. So that was my major can learn. When you see that it is so tragic and harrowing to see all that and witness that, and that made me write about womens right. Peter karen taylor, do you feel shackled . Karen i believe that the struggle for womens rights, as my colleagues just pointed out, structuralhave this sexism in our society. There is violence against women, but which is seen as a regular state. This struggle we have the men toibility to towards show in which movement, which point they have to move toward the struggle for women. There are both sides of the struggle, on the one hand we have women who are struggling and on the other hand we have men who are ignoring this problem. Peter will will talk about the men in a little bit. We clearly have to. Paradox, itcult seems to me as a man, were talking about using the term women being shackled, feeling unfree in the contemporary world. I remember a couple of years ago Hillary Clinton came out and said something interesting. I remember my daughter sort of nodding and saying that is true. Hillary clinton said there has never been a better time to be a woman in the world. It is paradoxical. Would you like to comment on that . I totally agree. We look at the past and we see how far the women struggle has come. I agree that the moment is now to acknowledge the struggle, but to also see that we have to go farther. So combining the past and the future, i guess we have the chance to really fight for equality. Past,st looking at the but also looking at the different groups are engaged in the struggle nowadays. Its not just only, were not just talking about white feminism movement, were talking about black women is him and islam it and is a. These of the different kinds of groups being kept out of this discussion who now feel empowered enough to actually call themselves feminists. Meera i would like to disagree when it comes to pakistan. Things were much better before. We had an agricultural system and women used to work there. Now the islam nation has overcome everything and religion is deciding for you what you have to do, on what your role as in society as a woman, which was not the case earlier on. So it is difficult. Agree, i think it is a western perspective. For me as a woman in germany, i would not want to live in germany at any other time then today. Even myrs generation, mothers generation didnt have as much freedom as i have today. When we look at other countries, you mentioned pakistan. We could also say iran. Street,is not a oneway but we see backlash in other countries, particularly islamic countries s but we d did in you, poland, we see it in europe, poland, and partially in the United States. Weve already mentioned there has been a much talked about shift in the global agenda towards what you might call strongman or macho politics. We would like to get some impressions now before talk about that, focusing on the onted United States, russia, and on turkey. In the u. S. , last year an old video came back to hot donald trump. When you are a star, they let you do it. Whatever you want. After his inauguration, a series of huge political rallies known as womens marches were held to protest the new president s political agenda. , president erdogan has urged women to have at least three children. He says that those who dont are deficient and incomplete. Erdogans government often crackdown on protesters. These women were demonstrating against domestic violence. More than 20 of them were arrested. , Vladimir Putin doesnt care much for protesters, either. These women in moscow were demonstrating against the mystic violence, and to keep a protest legal, they had to stand 50 meters apart. Bubut are alall these protests really doing any good . Karen taylor, Vladimir Putin, erdogan, and donald trump, what do the three have in common for you, if anything . All of them are patriotic, and they are racist. If you look at feminism and you look at these three president s, wilson have to talk about the intersection hourly of feminism, the fight against racism and classism. Show three topics combined how people can be discriminated against, and looking at the struggle separately, doesnt advance either the women or other minorities. Peter what do you say about all that, anna . Anna i admit i was skepticals to see this parallel between the womensainst racism and rights. When i thought about it a little more, often what we look at it means to fight inequality, its exactly the same things that can be done. Itsraising awareness, putting up quotas, its affirmativeaction programs. So i guess ive sort of changed my mind a little bit and i do think it is pretty much the same. Inequality is the same, no matter who it is applied to. Peter coming from a pakistani perspective on that . Pretty much the same. In pakistan, a lot of things have changed on paper. The womens quota has been increased in the parliament. There is 33 person representation that they have in the parliament. But on the ground level, nothing changes. Influentialose people who make it to the parliament. Its only those influential women who have the right, but not the common woman. So it remains the same. The struggle remains in the problems have increased, in my understanding. Peter weve heard the word feminism. Is it seen these days as a useful tool, or is it a problematic thing . The local people i meet, its taken as a derogatory term more than a positive thing. Im not fighting for anything else but m my rights, so what is wrong with that . That is all feminism is about, fighting for youour rights as a human being, as an individual. As equally as the other man standing right next to me. If im equally qualified and eat early talented, why shouldnt i get the job the same as that man standing next to me . Its linked to the rather onesided view on the minutes of. From a german perspective, i consider myself that ive changed looking about who i am, and if i believe i am a feminist as i now see that the struggle several groupst of women. It has combined and has linked several minorities. Its very important to us to look at that perspective. You at the top of the show, you said feminism and some instances has been a onesided Rights Version of feminism. Tell us more about that. It has been for me in the past. We have in germany this very outspoken feminist. Peter its sort of the icon of feminism in germany. Its very controversial. Karen one of her perspectives tofeminism when its linked islam, for example, is that women who wear the headscarf are not emancipated, that they are per se under this pressure of religion, of a male world. I would rather see their liberty and their freedom and the right to choose whether to wear the headscarf or not, but this does not even come up within her discussion or her opinion. I believe only looking at feminism at this rather i would call it a wide struggle of women, to deprive other women of their right to fight in the right to call themselves feminists as well. Peter is feminism part of the problem, or part of the solution . I think rising populists have done a good job of making feminism the problem. Bit of truth is a it that. Feminism has allowed them to do so, and this has to do with the problem you were describing, that there is more of an elite feminism, at least in germany and the western world, that has had a very loud voice in the has discussnd things in germany like should we use the male and female version if we talk about the professor at the university. We have more gender equal language. Is a problem for women who already work in universities and it does not address women who try to raise three children on a parttime job alone. So feminism has had the wrong priorities. Im not saying that language is it has beent, but too high up on the agenda of feminism and has allowed rising another way tod attack. Karen it was disconnected from other problems in society. Example, from the class problems within society. That is why the special elite was able to dominate a narrative of feminism and forget about the the regular woman who is also fighting in the workplace, and her family. If shes trying to look for an apartment, shes not just a woman, but also of color, for example, in germany. Meera we are way too different in pakistan. Six women are kidnapped every day, for women are raped every day. Women,e is any voice for that would be a credit for us. Is sadly, the islamization covering everything for us. If you speak about human rights, its not acceptable. As soooon as you Start Talking about womens rights, it becomes a religious problem. I dont know where it comes from and why it should be like that, but that is what were dealing with. Peter that is an acute observation. Disparitiesh great of wealth and poverty. Germany, of course, is one of the most prosperous and possibly one of the most progressive countries in the world. But here there is still a Glass Ceiling that keeps women from entering the higher echelons of politics or business in large numbers. Lets look at some facts and figures. German chancellor chancellor Angela Merkel is considered the worlds most powerful woman. Just about half of her cabinet is made up of women. The defense mentors defense minister has one of the top jobs. Women playing Important Role in the armed first armed forces. 30 of those on Advisory Boards must go to women. But they are struggling to make it onto executive orders. Among the top 200 german businesses, only 8 of board positions are held by women. And women in germany still arent about 20 less than men do area many women worked only parttime or they are fulltime parents. Many of these women may face poverty when they are older. So is gender equality in germany just a myth . Ask that question, and i would like to ask, how come in a progressive country like germany, why are women still lagging behind men . I think they are, yes . Its a piece of history we are dragging behind us like a huge stone. Inequality between men and women peoplen in germany until stepped up and work for progressive ideas and for more equality. Much psychology still in it and so much structural problems, you cannot expect to get rid of it in two or three generations, but when i look at the politics, weve seen in the field of family and equality politics in the last decade, there has been a lot of things that have been done and i think we are progressing on the right cap and Everybody Knows its not perfect yet, but we are going the right way. What we have to worry about is when we look at poland, turkey, countries like pakistan, thats what we really have to worry about. Peter you all three live in germany. What do you expect from german men and other men living in germany . From my perspective, it was a welcome change. Coming country where there is Sexual Harassment on the streets, coming here where i can walk out on the street in the middle of the night without fearing anything, that was pretty liberating for me. Perspective,hat im not to that level where i can compare that very well because i still challenge myself with the change from time to time. Only have the german perspective and i would not agree that women are safe on the street, especially at night. I wouldnt say that women dont fear for their safety when they go around. Fromw it t must bee different pakistan. I cannot deny that. But i guess just putting the general point on women dont have to fear violence at all in germany would deny that problem there is still the thinking where women believe they can grab women on the street. It has happened to me and its happened to my friends in germany. I think it is more the problem of not seeing, and that is what i would like to address towards the men living in germany, to actually see that staring at a woman, grabbing a woman, that is harassment and thats the kind of situation men have to not just look at the situation and pass by, but interfere and try to maybe protect women in these situations. Anna i would like them to be more courageous in taking responsibility in the family. They might sail would really like to stay home for six months or 10 months to care for a baby, of losingre afraid face with the employer. Its very different depending on what brand you are working in. Its not that great in journalism, but i know that another economic branches it is still a great problem and i would just hope that more men step up and do what they want to to takeave the courage up this role that they want to live, and they would help us and it would help them. We dont have that much time left but i want to point to one other aspect of the the debate that i find quite interesting. A quote from the president of the United Nations foundation. She said women can hold themselves back. We hold ourselves to a different standard, often a higher standard than men. We think we have to do things perfectly. We think we have to have all the qualifications. Does that ring a bell for you ladies . I think so. We have to prove ourselves. When you pushed against the wall you have to move quick and be fast enough to get away with it. So we have to be smarter and asked her. Only the women believing that the system making the women believe that they have to overcome men in any way. All groups, women and men, have to overcome the structural sexism. Peter the women have to be better than better . Is this something you know from your own successful rise in journalism . Not from my own experience. I have not run into those classic glass walls. Colleagues other that it is the same way. I find it a little difficult to say women hold themselves back. Because there is a trap in that. The womend, its not that hold themselves back, its the structures and what theyve been taught that holds them back. You always have to look at it very carefully. Peter weve been talking about equality for women. Where is the balance . Is there more progress at the moment or is the backlash weighing too heavy . I think its both. In certain societies you see progress, but in others it is coming farther. So it is both at the same time. Karen i would agree that women are now challenged more to actually stand up for their rights. You see this development in the u. S. , poland, in turkey am a but also germany and pakistan. Theess the progress and backlash is there, but we are challenged more. Challenge that was being thrown down for you was be bolder. Anna im hopeful that in the western world, there are enough strong women, enough women to new wavend conquer the of antifeminist movement in the United States and poland and here in europe. Peter we will have to leave it there on those wise words. Thank you very much today, all three of you. Come back next week. Od night from quadriga cheers. , . Ghqxnxnxnxccxqqaxua anchor hello and welcome tofokus on europe. One of the stories we arebringing you today takes a close look at the wave of politicalprotest sweeping across romania. The Eastern European countrysgovernment has tried to reverse the fight against corruption. In response, tens of thousands of romanians have braved thefreezing cold and taken to te streets. It is about the principle. We do not want to be ruled by thieves anymore, says thiswoman. Anchor more on this is comingup later in the program