Though, in i italy, where Prime Minister matteo renzi has resigned, after losing a referendum on constitutional reform. The driving force behind his defeat was the populist fivestar movement of beppe grillo. Well, in spite of their setback in austria, are europeans antiestablishment parties unstoppable, or can the political mainstream launch counteroffensive to contain them . To talk about that, im very happy to be joined by the austrian journalist ewald konig. He writes for a number of publications, including germanys die zeit. He says, the eu wont be able to easily resist the populists, but it will have to live with them, and become much more convincing. Also with us today, alan posener, an an anglogerman author, and regular commentator for the newspaper die welt. He says, europe suffers from modernization fatigue, and that explains the vote in italy, and the rise of the populists, but it also strengthens centrists like Angela Merkel in germany. We also have dw journalist federica baggio. She is from italy, and has been out talking to young voters there. She says, renzi lost this most important ally in the fight for change young voters. But because those young voters gave in to the populists, they have now lost the chance to make the country better. Thanks, all of you, for being here today. Federica, lets start with you. Are we seeing in italy right now a new youth revolution, a new youth rebellion . Federica i think thats a good way of putting it. Besides the size of the loss that matteo renzi had on sunday, i think what was most striking was seeing so many young voters say no. Its almost 70 of young italians voted no. You would expect young people to be at the forefront when it comes to promoting reforms and change. I think we were expecting more of a brexitlike scenario here. Instead, they were definitely in denial, so something there went extremely wrong. Brian what were the two big issues for youth voters . Was it migration, was it the eurozone, was it both . Federica i think the Biggest Issue i would put it this way. There has been a revolution in this referendum from young voters. But not so much against the content of the referendum. The content of the proposal is constitutional reform. But more against the current government. I would say more against matteo renzi and his persona. Brian ok. So you are saying it is wrapped up with the person matteo renzi. Federica yes. Thats it. Brian ok. Ewald konig, what is your take . Is it all about the person renzi, or the issues . The complex issues facing italy . Ewald i think it was a very big mistake to combine the result of the referendum with a personal political future of this politician. Many politicians in the past has have madede this mistake, and he should have learned his lessons, but i could imagine that one day he will have his comeback. Brian ok. So you think it also has to do with renzi, and a political mistake, not so much as personality. Lets hear from the people in italy, and what they said about a referendum that saw a large majority, about 70 , say no to calls for change to the constitution. The fact that the no campaign won says an important signal. People have had enough of budget cuts, and enough of the neoliberal policies of renzis government and those who came before him. We won, and thats great. Things cant continue as they are. The italian people canant taket anymore. They want to change, and they got it. If the politicians dont understand this, we will make them understand it. So far, the government has ruined us, like with the pension reforms. Its awful. For young people, its a disaster. Lets hope things get better. Brian we will make them understand, as we have just heard from that man. The anger there, very palpable. When you look at italy today, and see whats happening there, what do you think . We have this image of italy as a core eu state. Is it anymore . Alan its never been true of all of italy anyway. The south, sicily, has never really been part of that core europe. Also, since the beginning of austerity, youth unemployment has soared, which explains part of the no vote. One thing is, i did not think this was a vote against europe against reforms. It was a vote against a political attempt to secure an automatic majority for the party that got most votes. In other words, to strengthen the position of rome. I think people dont want that. Brian they objected to it. Alan they objected to that. I think i can understand why. If we imagine the same thing in germany, one gets 30 of the vote, so the automatic 50 goes to the other, would we want that . I, for one, would vote no. Even if mrs. Merkel would say to me, this is the only way we can change our country. I would say, if that is the only way, then we wont change it, rather than go that way. Its not democratic. I think the italians voted wisely, actually. Brian if they voted so wisely sorry, i need to jump in with ewald here, you were saying you agree with alan, it was kind of a technical problem, and renzi should not have linked it to his personality. Still, he misread the public. Why . How did he misread the public he represents . Ewald well, maybe he misunderstood the fears of some people, if there is a popular stick head of governmenent, then it should be better if the senate has more power, and has more influence. It could be dangerous in the future. Brian federica, what do you think . Federica i think he made a mistake. When he realized he would not have the support, it was too late. I think that it was a huge mistake to link the faith of a reform that i think would have changed our system for the better. There is a problem with our system at the moment. It is so complex. This is something that we all had knowledge in italy. We are all asking for change, young people in the first place. Here, they voted against the change, because of the context. It goes back to unemployment. It is definitely a huge problem. Almost 37 of young people in italy have no jobs. Theres a lot of people that are on the verge of poverty. This is also topics that we dont discuss enough. I think a lot of people felt put aside in the public discussion. They didnt feel cared for. Brian a followup, if people want change so much and the young voters you have, been talking to, the 68 of them who voted against the referendum, why were they not willing to accept a technical change to the way they are governed to make change easier . Why did they reject that . Federica that is where i think the big controversy is here. I think the big mistake of renzi was to put his political career aside sidebyside with the outcome of this referendum, and put them both at stake. I think people took the chance of this note to vote against him, against the government that they are unhappy with. Something . Say there has been a perversion of the word reform in the last 1020 years in europe, and elsewhere. Reform used to mean empoweringng people. Used to being mean giving rights to women, giving rights to young people, extending the voting age downward from 21 to 18. Extending the way workers can contribute. Nowadays, when people hear reform they automatically think, it means my pension is going to get cut, my wage is going to get cut, unions dont have any more say in the matter, and in the case of italy, the government will be able to govern through , and the rights of the regions will be cut. Brian putting the reform aside, that is the case quite often, isnt it . Ewald, hasnt alan identified something that once reform meant something, now it means pain . Reform is synonymous for Austerity Program today. People are afraid of this. Alan they should have found another word for it. Use reform for what it is originally meant for, making things better. Then say, what we are doing now is not reforming any system, we are creating pain, because we want to do down the line whatever. Because the word has been so misused, people are just saying reform . No, no. It means 40 youth unemployment increase, 30 in italy and so on. 40 youth unemployment in greece, and 30 in italy and so on. Brian one things migration, europeans not taking any of the froman migrants, migrants north africa and the middle east in large numbers. Is this result the mistake of italys european partners, of brussels . Isnt it something that europe could have prevented by helping italy more with the migration crisis . They failedure that in solving this problem. Made able even to make the distribution of refugees in different european countries. It is also a failure of germany. In september last year, when hundreds of thousands of refugees who were welcomed more didess, chancellor merkel not consult even the most important partners in the European Union. She just let them come in without a telephone e call with paris, or the Eastern European countries. Whyefore, they do not see they should participate in this distribution program, and they are against it. And a failureke, from brussels, and it was not the best way of handlingng the problem in berlin. Brian federica, you are shaking your head. Do you agree . Federica i agree with the fact that it was definitely an issue and contributed to the result we saw on sunday. It also contributed and that was not just recently, within , because we years have been talking about the fivestar movement that theres another movement in italy, the Northern League. They were basically at zero. I want to join brian jump in and remind brian i want to remind the viewers who the Northern League is. It is a far right organization. Federica yes. They are basically dead, up to a couple of years, ago and has now reached almost 15 . Their traditional argument and the traditional message has always been this controversial division between the north and the south, the independence of the lombardi region. Now, they really pick up on this topic, of migration and that is what made them strong again. They have a very strong and disruptive message. Brian polling 15 nationally. Federica a bit less, but they went from 3 i think two years ago, to almost 13 or 14 now with a new leader. He has his own way of communicating, and it is effective. It is something i see, because i come from one of the cities. It is a bit of a stronghold of the Northern League in northern italy, near milan. I can see that. I can see how many people are joining in. I can see people i know sidebyside with him. Brian are we going to see new elections next year in 2017, or do we have to wait for the scheduled elections in 2018 . As thea as much fivestar movement and Northern League are pushing up the elections, because they are at i really dont think we are going to see elections as early as february or january next year as they are suggesting. The president of the republic is completely against it. Something in place at the moment. It is being examined by the constitutional court. Until the end of january, we will not have an electoral law. There is no context. That we are going to see the next elections actually in 2018, when they were originally planned. Brian but grillo would like to see them earlier. Does that worry you, to see a former comedian and entertainer shoe to the top, galvanize the public . Because he is an entertainer, Ronald Reagan was an actor. William shakespeare was an actor. Why shouldnt an actor be a great literary figure and great politician . The problem about fivestar movement is they want to take italy out of europe, which would lead to the collapse of the common currency. You can welcome that, but i dont. I think it would lead to incredible economic disruption, especially in italy. Ppe grillorry that be is a comedian. My best friends are comedian. S. But you have to worry about a party that honestly thinks it can win by retreating from the eurozone. German finance minister has also been playing down the vote in italy. He doesnt seem too concerned about it. Lets hear what he has to say. N needs argently government that can function eventually effectively. I hope they can continue the reform program, despite the fact that the italian people did not accept these constitutional reforms. There is no reason to Start Talking about euro crisis, and theres absolutely no reasasonor anyone to start predicting one. Brian ok, we are back with our guests. Ewald, what do you think . Will italy returned to the lira . Ewald i cannot believe they would return to the lira. They must ask themselves in what position with the European Union be, and the eurozone be, without the European Union, with it be better . Would it be better . I ththink this is the target of populists. In fact, they dont want to come back to the lira, i cannot imagine. Brian federica, what is your sense from talking to people . Federica i think people want much more concrete things at the moment. They want better work conditions. They want unemployment rates to go dowown. Thats what they want. That is what they are talking about. That is what they are frustrated about. The lira debate, it is pointed but it is not at the top of peoples minds at the moment. Brian ok. The populists that we have been talking about across europe, not only in italy, are sensing victory right now. They have the win in italy, they have major gains elsewhere. Has been out rallying their bases, stirring up emotions that are already peaking with the fivestar movement. It is a debate that requires, toughd of emotions, debate and her decisions p lets look at what some of europes populist leaders have been saying. We begin with beppe grillo. We have to take our scepter and smack them in the face with it. Our no vote is not political, it is the vote of every individual. It is an existential no, and a socicial no. Ashamed whennot feel we say we are proud to be austrians. Ofthe eu is making a mess virtually everything. First we have the eurozone, then the common asylum policy, compounded usually by Angela Merkel. This is our nation. This is our state. This is our country. And we will take this country back, bit by bit. The type of rhetoric we just saw their failed to convince austrian voters in the election over the weekend to put in the lead. Why did it fail in austria, when it did not in italy . They failed in this election, but nearly half of the voters voted for him. Is not a federal president , he might be once one of the federal chancellors, the far right, but not the right extremist party, but a rightwing populist party. He could be the next head of government. They did not fail so much. Maybe it was an advantage for ofm not to have the position the president , but the more important position of the federal chancellor in the future. Ok, so the far right has lost the skirmish, but the battle continues, so to speak. An, do you see the far right being strengthened going out of this election result in austria . Alan no, not strengthened by the result. They lost the election, but i agree with what ewald just said. They are coming back. You heard from all the clips, there are two elements. One is democracy. The people feel disenfranchised, and they say the way we get back our vote is by taking control of our country. They have a point, because historically, the nationstate and democracy have on hand in hand. Gone handinhand. We still dont have institutions that work on a european levevelo give people the idea that they are controlling their destiny. The euro is totally abstract. The decisions made thereby mr. Draghi or whoever are controlled nowhere. Ideaan understand this will take back our country. It wont work, because the world is different. Maybe they will just have to experience that. Brian the world is different, but what hasnt changed is the need for a debate. In austria, the people and gogovernment institutions decidd to bring the far right in the fold to debate them, talk to them, include them in the discourse, something not happening in germany right now. Is there something, a lesson, that austria can get to germany in terms of how to deal with the far right . Ewald i think it is a mistake to copyy them. It is a mistake to emulate them. Austria has many experiences have a generation agogo, in 2000 when the conservative party had a collision with this fpo. Otherwise, the socalled grand coalitionn decades,e had for would get weweaker and weaker, d the fpo would get more powerful. Andas necessary to make it, to show if they are able to make a political strategy. So when the eu had the socalled sanctions against austria, it was very bad. It still is damage in the image of the eu, and the austrians. Brian do you think the far right should be pulled into the debate in germany . Alan they already are. They are defining the debate. Look at the last party conference, they decided on a ban of the burqa. Brian but the individuals are not included in the debate, they are not welcome. Alan well, it is a matter of time. They will get, what, 20 , in the next election . If they are still around in four years, there will be a collision, but it wont be the end of the world. Brian lets look to the future. In spring there are elections in france, and the netherlands. There are elections in germany. Our people in italy worried about populist gains in places like france and hololland . Fedederica yes. They look inward. It was quite a funny coincidence that the referendum and austrian election happened on the same day. I think a lot of people in italy were like, relieved when they saw that result in austria. Alan i think many austrians ewald i think many austrians were quite happy that renzi had to resign. Alan that is interesting. The thing is in europe, we are interested in interior politics of other countries. This is something populism will not roll back. The fact that austria , italy, greece, interests us in germany in a way it never would have done 10 or 20 years ago. The populace are not populists are not going to be a will to do away with that. Ewald and they cannot hurt the socalled elite when they are always told dont vote for the far right. Demonstrationsw and protests can hurt. Brian we have more votes coming up it we will see how that will go to a lot to talk about. I would like to thank our guests for being here today. Federica baggio from italy, dw correspondent, thank you. From german newspapers, working here in berlin. And of course, alan posener, thank you for your comments. Thank you for being with us today here on quadriga. We look forward to your visit the next time around. Until then, goodbye. 8uxua . o . ]o7o7ovov . d this week on global 3000, we head to kyrgyzstan to the largest Walnut Forest in the world. But, changes to this unique area are posing challenges for locals. We go to singapore where foreign Domestic Workers suffer frequent illtreatment at the hands of their employers. And life is tough for Migrant Workers in qatar, too. Loneliness, homesickness is it really worth it . The world is a global village. Goods and data move seamlessly between countries