Excuse to crackdown on political opponents. Hes also threatening to pull out of the refugee transfer deal he made with e. U. Leaders. The e. U. Parliament appears to have had enough. It is recommending a freeze on membership talks with turkey. Can the refugee deal and e. U. Turkish relations be rescued, or is turkey getting ready to say so long . That is what we want to talk about today on quadriga with three people following the situation closely. It is a pleasure to welcome gokcen beyinli, a journalist from turkey and academic currently working with oxford university. She says turkey has been a part of europe for centuries. It belongs to the e. U. , not erdogan. Germanru is a turkish businessman and founder of the Party Alliance of german democrats. He says turkey is no longer obedient to europe. Relations will inevitably continue. And it is a pleasure to welcome michael thurmann. He right he writes about International Politics for die zeit and he says the turkish government is fighting a war not only against terrorists, that against ordinary citizens. The e. U. Has to address these problems without burning bridges. Gokcen beyinli, the e. U. Parliaments resolution was nonbinding. Ultimately it is the commission and the Member States that have to decide whether to continue talks with turkey. All of you are basically saying those accession talks should continue, but lets be honest. Turkey, in its present state of repression and human rights violations, has no conceivable path to membership. Isnt it time to face reality . To i think we have turkey inot equal to erdogan. Turkey is a big country with various voices. If the e. U. Just regard erdogan as the right partner of turkey, then of course the accession talks should come to an end. But there are different voices that regard e. U. As important contribution for turkeys future, so i think those things should be taken account. Thurmann, youel said in your Opening Statement that the e. U. Does need to address regression in turkey. Membership was long thought of as a kind of caret that would encourage turkey to moderate its behavior, to democratize, but the fact is, given what were seeing, there appears to be very little leverage at all that that you can wield over turkey. Phase, in the initial when there were reforms in turkey, the e. U. Didnt quite react properly to that. Back to 10 years takenhe e. U. Should have turkey by their word, but they did not. , ass a bit late today president erdogan has turned on a different path, but i still think that the e. U. Membership negotiation does not really to go directlyer into membership, but rather to keep ways open to talk, because we have no other forum to talk about burning issues. I think, when you talk, you should talk straight, open, and address the problems turkey is facing. Melinda remzi aru, can turkey afford to ignore pressure from europe, given the fact that europe is turkeys biggest trading partner . Remzi turkey cannot afford to ignore europe. Like any other country, cannot afford to ignore partners. There are very natural ties to europe that will be for the next decade and centuries, because 5 Million People of turkish origin live in europe. To ignore and cut ties the europe would say to cut ties to all these people. Europe and turkey sit in the same boat. If you try to destabilize turkey or if turkey tries to destabilize or ignore europe, it will be the same boat. For both sides, if they want or not, they are there will always be a need to cooperate. On which level is another question. This has to be figured out. But right now, i think i agree with mr. Thurmann. It is time to be more honest, and also to realize that turkey is a vigilant democracy, so there has been things in turkey that the reaction might be , theeaction, but remember reunification in germany nobody was killed, no tanks were on the street, hundreds of thousands of people also in my family, im married to a german woman, and my fatherinlaw was pulled out of the army and my motherinlaw was put out of her job. Nobody died. Similar n was not it was actually worse than in germany. Now you see in turkey, hundreds of people have died. Countrysituation, in a with neighbors like this, with civil wars and destabilization, it is, i think, normal that a country would react like this. Furthermore, the president of turkey is elected by a majority, so we have nobody else to talk to. Melinda let us take a look shortly at what you refer to as the vigilant democracy. First i would like to ask both of you to tell me what you are hearing from people in turkey in regard to their reaction to the e. U. Parliaments recommendation not to continue accession and the degree to which people in turkey still want to be e. U. Members. Gokcen i think that a lot of people still in turkey believe that e. U. Membership is a very important step for turkeys future and many people still believe that, despite erdogans authoritarian policies or threats to the e. U. , the relationship should continue. Then e. U. Would push turkey in a more authoritarian rule, or to middle east, so i think turkey should stay part of europe. Melinda remzi aru, would you agree . When you talk to people in turkey, are you hearing disappointment or are you hearing them say, if they dont want us, we dont need them . Remzi if useful to people in turkey 5, 6, 7 years ago, 70 were in favor of the European Union. Now 70 to 80 are against it. European union is just one of the possibilities to Work Together and communicate together. Businessman and i think the case is brought by , not bymen politicians. It is time to be more honest on both sides, to have also the relations and to see the effect in both countries. For instance, one small example, im founder of a partner in germany. My social media accounts were closed in germany. All were closed. Nobody knows. Turkey is very honest. If something happens, the president says, it was me to say to do this. In germany, it is very difficult to find out. Nobody will take responsibility. My bike accounts are closed. Im not crying and going to turkey and saying, germany is so bad. Melinda what is your interpretation of why that happened . Remzi i think this party that i opened is addressing mainly people with immigration background, and there is a potential of 20 to 25 of the votes in germany, and right now we have a big oppression, and theres a big problem in germany. Im not running to say, put me in germany. I tried to solve the problems here. I think this is something that has to be solved by the people. I think it is not helpful for turkey and europe if people come from other countries and try to get help in europe. It is very similar situations. Melinda michael thurmann, repression of freedom of speech . Michael i appreciate very much that you are not running to turkey to seek help. I think you have opportunities to seek help in germany, and to work your way through the institutions. If you compare that to turkey, or if you were in a similar situation in turkey, i think things would have been much harder for you. Im not guessing. Friends. Couple they are jailed at the moment. They do not know what for. Are huge there problems. If you are jailed or persecuted in some way, to get to talk to anybody who is responsible for that and you know theres an emergency law in turkey now which allows authorities to do which which is not is very much unlike in france, a , very much anything unlike in france, and i think the opposite model to what is happening in germany. Melinda lets come back to that in one moment. I would like to take a quick look at some of the events and measures that have been taken under that emergency law. In fact the events and measures that led the e. U. Parliament to conclude that accession talks should be put on ice. Mass arrests of journalists, teachers, and judges. Most of those detained have been accused of supporting terrorism. Thee who protest against arrests often end up in jail themselves. Innocent people are jailed every day. Weve had enough of this. Human Rights Groups have accused turkish authorities of systematically abusing detainees. Camille was arrested and tortured for days. He was accused of supporting the pkk, a kurdish separatist group. Playtime waits to our weightss they tied to our testicles. Im still so sore down there that it hurts when i go to the toilet. The charges were later dropped and he was released. These repressive measures have created a climate of fear. Can turkey remain a viable partner for the e. U. . Melinda gokcen beyinli, what are you hearing from friends and family in turkey about how grave and widespread this repression is and whether it is justified because turkey needs to be vigilant . Gokcen it depends on with whom you talk. Supporters, it is more all right, i think. Everything is going in the right direction because these people who are arrested or put in jail have ties with terrorism. But those are accusations. People wait in jail for days, months, to hear accusations. Those who are not supporters of erdogan are very critical and are very worried. They are afraid for their future. Insist that the e. U. Should not cut talks with turkey. It must give positive support from the european side to those that are not supporters of erdogan. Melinda remzi aru, you said turkey needs to be vigilant in the face of terrorism, in the face of attacks by the pkk, and of course against those who perpetrated the coup. But the fact is, thousands of people were arrested, detained, in very short order after the coup attempt. So many that it seems quite implausible to think that all of them were linked to the coup. Do you truly say that all these arrests, that mistreatment in prison, is justified . These are accusations, first of all, the mistreatment. Nobody knows. You have to see the documents and followup. It is accusation. To you have to control this first. You have to put it in the right relation. In germany, there was a hot autumn in the 70s. In a timeframe of 10 years, 30 people died. Tens of thousands were put out of jobs. Thousands were jailed. Day,rkey, in one single hundreds were killed, were overrun by tanks, were shot by planes, and furthermore, to the situation, some people who did the coup fled to europe, and europe said, you can get a silent. Um. Get asyli at the same time, europe does not want people from syria to come. The pkk, which has killed thousands of people, makes parties in celebration of the founding of the pkk and goes into parliament. In this situation, where you nstablizing from europe, you have to put this into context. Melinda does europe have too little understanding of the degree to which turkey feels threatened . We are hearing a comparison to the time of the red brigade in germany. Are we perhaps too blind of the degree to which turkey is the stabilized by the immense threat around it . Michael i think sometimes we do not have the right understanding of whats going on in turkey. Sometimes we tend to, for example, to focus too strongly on president erdogan. The german media sometimes are in a frenzy about every word he said. Relax ande would be, see what actually materializes after he says something. If we go into comparisons, i think it is a futile exercise to compare things. Think at the moment we are seeing two different planets there, simply because turkey is unique. It is unique in its beauty and in the huge troubles it is in and has brought itself. Also discount the comparison between the r. A. F. And what is going on in turkey today, because theres been a coup first, which then resulted into a witchhunt. The question is, how do we get out of this situation, that actually the problems of terror in turkey are being addressed, while political opponents remain untouched, and the democratic system of turkey remains intact, and not severely damaged by a witchhunt which is going on at the moment . Remzi i agree with you. There is a big problem in turkey in terms of democracy, but it is not the problem of the ruling party. It is the problem that theres no opposition. If you look at the opposition, hdp, whenok at the they had 14 , i was the first one to go to their center in istanbul and congratulate them. It was a beautiful atmosphere. They had a lot of support. Sometimes you have to be a good politician. He has charisma, but hes not a good politician. In this moment, it was a big opportunity to say the pkk is a terror organization. It would have left 2 of the falcons and maybe 10 to 15 from other parties would have gone. This would have been a very good approach, but he did not do this. Michael but still no reason to jail him. Remzi we dont know what happened exactly. There are accusations. If some people from the Parliament Transport weapons or go to funerals of terrorists who have committed suicide attacks, then you have to have at least the question mark. If Something Like this would happen in germany or the United States or wherever, the reactions would be much different. Michael simply because the laws do not accept to detain people for such a long time. The leader of a legitimate political party. Hes not the leader of the kurdish pkk movement. Thes the leader of the hdp, kurdish political party. He has been chosen by 15 of the countrys people. To be their representative. We know what happened after the election in june. All those bombings and things. It was a very, very difficult time period for. Time period for turkey. It has become such a Strong Coalition to blame the opposition parties, to blame that they are weak. There is a strong opposition in cant, but the opposition do anything. So state of emergency is strong in the country. What can the opposition do . Melinda let me take a step back. I would like to look once more threat tont erdogans break off the refugee deal he has made with the e. U. Lets take a brief look at the statement he made last week. When 50,000 migrants turned what areece, we said, we going to do if turkey opens its borders . If you go any further, those border crossings will be opened. Thurmann, would you expect president erdogan to make good on that threat . Michael not for the time being. He uses it as a constant threat to rally support at home and he needs it for the referendum next year. I think he wont tear of anything. Should he tear it up next year, i think the European Union would prepare. The sea between italy and greece is much larger than between the greek islands and turkey. I see it as na empty threat an empty threat. Melinda you are telling us we wouldnt return to the kind of mass migration we saw in 2015. Gokcen beyinli, does that give the e. U. Some leeway to perhaps take some distance from this . You called for essentially for europe to make a distinction between erdogan and turkey. But how do you do this . Erdogan is on the way to complete control of his country. You have to deal with erdogan if you want to deal with turkey. Gokcen of course, he is the leader of the country. He was the chosen prime minister. Now he wants to have all the powers as the president. But if you only concentrate, as you said, on discourse on his speeches, that would weaken turkeys position with regard to e. U. Erdogan said, for instance, that the Turkish Military entered syrian land because they wanted to bring down the assad government. Today. Ched he said, no, we entered syrian terroristear the organizations. Erdogan says something and then the other day, he says another thing. He takes a different perspective on the subject matter. Not to pushes him hard cut the talks and to continue the negotiations, then i think erdogan will change also. Melinda do you think that is right, remzi aru, and there is there a Different Forum in which talks should occur . Perhaps giving up on the idea of full membership, but saying privileged partnership, something a little more realistic . Remzi i dont know what the name of this could be or should to 80 of the people in turkey are against e. U. Membership because they dont think europe is honest and they dont think the values europe is always trying to market are true. Melinda what is the solution . What is the positive, constructive way forward for both sides . Remzi let me just finish this one sentence. I dont think erdogan is threatening anybody. Germany,history of where you had east germany, where people could not go out of the country, i think it is not ok that turkey would develop to east germany and try to bring people away from leaving the country. If they want to leave, they leave. Erdogan is only remembering that , but tot possible socialize the cost on turkey. Melinda what is your solution . If you could advise the e. U. Right now remzi advice for the e. U. Would be, try to Work Together with the people who know the region, who have been there for hundreds of years, for nearly 1000 years, and dont try to solve the problems around this on your own way by supporting the pkk, by supporting strange people, because this will destabilize turkey and a destabilized turkey, even to germans who dont like turks, i see you have to stabilize it. 20 million will come. Melinda are we likely to see increasing divergence . Will things get worse before they get better . Michael i see this increasing divergence before the referendum. My hope is that after erdogan has got his presidency, then the new constitution, he will relax a bit. Melinda thank you very much to all of you for being with us today. Thanks to all of you out there for tuning in. See you soon. A1u nxxxxxxxx÷o÷o÷o÷o÷m÷m÷m damien hello and welcome to another edition of focus on europe. Im damien mcguinness. Im really pleased you could join us today. Refugees and migrants are changing the face of europe. Some think of problems when they think of immigration. But today well be looking at how Asylum Seekers are also enriching local communities. Including in some very unexpected ways such as on the pitch. Cricket isnt often a sporyou play here in germany