Killing five officers and wounding nine others. President obama played his nowfamiliar role of mourner in chief this week, calling on americans of all races to come together, as the people of dallas have done. How deep are americas divisions, and how can they be repaired . That is what we want to talk about this week, on quadriga, with three guests who are following the events there very closely. It is a pleasure to welcome erik kirschbaum. He is a new york native and longtime germany correspondent, currently working with the l. A. Times. He says, the United States feels like a powder keg, with deep political, economic, social, and racial divisions, threatening to erupt into a bigger explosion. And it is a pleasure to welcome Rieke Havertz. She is a Senior Editor at zeitonline, and she has also reported from the u. S. For a daily newspaper. She says, American Society has failed to address the issue of racism for years. President obama has to ask himself if he has been too defensive in making this his agenda. And finally, a pleasure to have karen taylor on the show. She is an activist with the initiative for blacks in germany. She says, more black people will be killed, as long as racism is rooted structurally and institutionally in our society, and that applies to the United States as well as to germany. Karen taylor, what is your reaction when you see a video like the ones that showed the killings last week, and are you convinced that in fact, we are seeing an increasing frequency of such incidents . Karen definitely, definitely. My first reaction was anger, and of course, sadness, because people died. But im not surprised. Im not surprised by this development, because we have seen strtructural denying and te structural negotiation of racism in the United States, but not only in the United States. As well as in germany, as i just pointed out. I think as long as this structural problem isnt tackled,d, we will see more e pe die. Melinda erik kirschbaum, a similar question to you. Would you say that there are more such incidents now, than in the past . Racial violence in the u. S. Is of course, by no means of recent origin. But do you think we are seeing more such Police Shootings, or are we simply seeing more reporting through the ubiquity of cell phones . Erik well, it feels like there is more Police Shootings of black people taking place right now, but it probably is more of just a coincidence that more people filming these things, that people are all over the place with cell phones. It is still a horrible trend, and a scary trend when you think about how incidences, lesser incidenceses, led to enormous racial unrest in the 1960s and the 1990s. 50 or 60 people being killed all the time at these kind of racial unrests, and yet, nothing of that scale has happened yet. It is a bit scary, it t is a dangerous situation, and the United States is a powder keg right now. , speakingieke havertz of powder kegs, one could see in the video of the shooting that took face in minnesota place in minnesota, a very tense police officer. Very very on edge. Can we really be sure these are incidents of endemic and latent racism as opposed to simply, fearful, overburdened, badly trained policice . Rieke to your question, a lot of answers are in different areas. I think there is racism, and there are numbers that show why police are m more likely to kill africanamericans or use violence against african from. Ans, state to state it differs. In chicago, you can be trained for 12 weeks, and then you arara rorookie on the streetets with a gun. There is a third issue. That is the amount of guns out there in the country. I dont even blame Police Officers to be very afraid, that they are being attacked at any arete, because there approximately 300 million guns out there in this country, so you cannot be sure. But of course, the issue of racism needs to be addressed. Melinda karen taylor, you said in your Opening Statement that racism has deep structural roots both in the u. S. And in germany. Yet, if you look at the statistics on shootings, last year in germany, seven people were killed by police. This year in the u. S. , it is already over 500. Even accounting differences in the populations, that is a staggering discrepancy. Isnt as much about guns, and some kind of pervasive culture of violence, as it is about racism . Karen i think it is about both. It is both in the u. S. Outright racism in germany. If you look at the statistics, Police Violence attacks more black people than white people compared to the population. I think that the issue. The issue here is not wanting to face the structural discrimination within the police, because of fear of offending them, because of the fear of pushing them away from the issue, rather than to work with them. The offenders in this case he come the victims become the victims. S, we call them out as racist they feel hurt and offended. That is a huge issue. Melinda erik, structural violence within Police Forces has been a topic in the Justice Department under president obama. They have done a number of civil rights investigations of Police Apartments department, concncluding that a number of tm have entrenched d structural problems. Is that making any difference . We are not seeing the problem of eight. Erik no, but every city is different. The Dallas Police department is exemplary for working with the different minority communities. Dallas, ironically, was where this horrible incident happened. But there is a lot of racism in the police depepartment in a lot of cities in america. As you mentioned, the police are not really trained that well. The average training is 21 weeks. In germany, it is three years. In germany, there is a lot more trainining that police get in lawenforcement. In the United States, they are pretty much thrown out on the streets. The police also have a secondary job of traffic control. In germany, theres a whole agency making sure cars are running to order. In the United States, the police by trying to earn money stopping people. If they see a black person driving a white neighborhood, they are more likely to find something wrong with the car to raise money for the community. All these things come together in an explosive situation. One more part in that situation, is that the police in america, they were such a sacred thing. They were untouchable and heroes. Everyone was saving themselves from being blamed. No one was ever to blame for anything and they are a tightknit community. ,that needs to change. They need to be made responsible. Studies show that black and white americans now have entirely different views of the police. I saw a statistic doing research thathe program, that shows 80 of white ameriricans say the Police Service americans well, whereas the majority of blacks see the service as fair to that. Bad. Words, for many americans, it appears the American Dream is not working for them. Announcer and the u. S. Last year, five times as many black men were shot and killed as white men, by police. Africanamericans make up about 12 of the countrys population, but more than one third of all jail and prison inmates. Despite the gains made in civil rights over the last six decades, many blacks cannot find jobs. The Unemployment Rate for African Americans is more than double the rate for whites. Who earn a College Degree are almost twice as likely to be out o work ththan their white counterparts. And africanamericans still have a shorter Life Expectancy than whites, a little over 75 years for blacks and 79 for whites,. Does the American Dream apply only to white people . E . Melinda karen taylor, that was a snapshot of a moment in time, comparing blacks to whites. But what if we look over time at whether things are changing for the better or the worst . When you look at young africanamericans today, would you say ththeir lives, in t terf trent discrimination, in terms of racism in terms of opportunity, are better or worse than their parents, . And their chances are definitely better than in the past, no question. I think we can all agree on that. But if we compare black to white, or two other minorities in the u. S. , or other parts of the world, this structural injustice has not changed compared to the other groups. That is something which has been pointed out by the United Nations for example, which claims that black people or people of african descent, are most targeted, and the most Vulnerable Group within a minority in different places in the world. People from african countries, people are obliged to enforce or ensure that racism has been tackled. I think definitely there is an improvement there, but injustice compared other groups is still there. Melinda but the u. S. Has an africanamerican president , and a a black American Family can sy to their children, you can be president. And ththey can mean it. Kareren that is definitely a ft that empowers black people everywhere, but he has a percent that person cannot change the system. He can only be a symbol. He can enforce lawmaking as well, but he cannot be the fact that changes the whole society. Melinda i want to go back to obamas role in a moment, but erik, we are coming up on the president ial nominating convention. You keep telling us the situation is explosive. In ohio, the state that will be hosting the Republican Convention next week, open carrying of guns is actually permitted. That grououps, inincluding a newly reconstitutd black panther group, say they best definitely plan to protest. Do you think we can see outright racial violence in the context of the convention . Erik considering donald trump s campaign has had those overtones from the beginning, there will be racial tensions. Over here in germany, it is hard to imagine a convention with a big party a and everyone willlle allowed to carry guns,. When im in the United States, i am always freaked out when i hear people are carrying guns. As you mentioned, there are 300 million guns in the country. It is a really dangerous situation. , youda Rieke Havertz covered some of the primaries. Undoubtedly, like other journalists, you have been astonished to see the rise of trump. Many people say he reflects the increasing divisions of identity politics in the u. S. Do you think that is right . Rieke i would agree to some basis isecause his making the division in the country greater, and he is not the one who talks to a lot of groups of people. He is not someone who talks about diversity. He is someone who plays with the anger of a lot of angry, white, middleclass, lower middle class, middle aged men, mostly because frustrated, they feel, as a lot of other people, the American Dream no longer works for them. There is no longer the one job you keep, the house you buy, the car you can keep, and sending kids to college. They are thinking trump will bring that back. Ofappeals to that group people. Of course, he appeals to them saying, i can bring that back for you. Of course, they are angry at every other person whom i take that away. Erik and he appeals to the angry white man who has lost income for the last decade or so, but he forgets that blacks has lost have lost twice as much. Other minorities are doing a lot worse than the white middle class. Trump does not have any effort at all to integrate minorities. Rieke absolutely. Also, the Republican Party is part of the problem. It is so easasy to say trump is the worst, and he is, probably. But the gop is very good about being racist against president obama, very ideologically against him for the past eight years. They took their part in fueling the anger, and they need t to think about whatat they need to change. It is still very much more likekely for a young africanamerican man to be shot on the street than to be president of the United States. Melinda karen taylor, there was a lot of discussion in the aftermath of the dallas shootings of Police Officers, about whether black lives matter, the movement that has evolved, particularly among young, black African Americans, to try to reclaim their own city, whether that is making things worse or better in terms of creating this atmosphere of identity politics. What do you think . Karen i think the Civil Rights Movement is in part a movement because, on the one hand, it shows as a group that black people face rasul discrimination Racial Discrimination which leads to the deaths of hundreds of blacks,. Making a group, all this information, putting it out there for all these people to see, and for people not to be able to ignore what is happening. They try to side, find a dialogue with president obama, for example, which happened yesterday. It is not just an anger movement, or a movement that just wants to be out of the streets, but also to come up with new solutions. Erik there is a lot of anger though, with likewise matter, and civil disobedience. The Texas Governor wayne black lives matter for the dallas shooting blamed black lives matter for the dallas shooting. It is not simply people. There is civil disobedience. There is a recent poll that came out and for the movement melinda it is interesting. Something like 37 of whites s y black lives s matter can make a difference, whereaeas a vast majority of blacks think it can make a different. Rieke right. The movement, i think it is good it is existing, because it shows something is wrong and t they nd to address racism in American Society but t i think, it is vey important for them to be smart about their next move, and to be not erik violent. Karen but on the other hand, the media has to be a part as well. It is a nonviolent movement. Have never called for guns, or for violence. The dallas shooting i would not put it in the same group, as the black lives matter. , who an individual definitely overstepped, or did the wrong thing here, causing this amount of death. But he is not part of the black lives matter group, for one. And they have never claimed him to be part of it on the other side. They communicated in a very peaceful way, yes, civil disobedience, but not with violence. It is up to the movement. Melinda as you mentioned, president obama met with black lives matter and throughout his, both terms in office, Race Relations have been a test for him. Interestingly enough, things looked very different when obama came to office. At that time, majority of americans were optimistic about Race Relations, and some even talked about a postracial america. Last week, again, obama found himself back in the role of mourner in chief. He went to dallas last week and called on americans to try and find unity amongst themselves. Many americans found themselves asking, to what avail . Announcer in this, the last year of his presidency, barack tried often try to calm and increasing frustration. President obama we must reject such despair. I am here to insist that we are not as divided as we seem, and i know that because i know america. Announcer but the president knows that for many americans, words are not enough. In the wake of the recent shootings of young black men, many in afroamerican communities a across the country are demanding president obama take a clear stand. When obama first took office in january 20 2009, he represented hope and change for lots of black americans, but many now feel that the president has let them down. Has obama done enough to fight racism, and improve the lives of African Americans . Erik, are you disappointed . Would you say obama could and should have done more . Im disappointed that america is probably more racist now ththan it was eight years a. I was one of the optimists who thought this would be a new era. It has been sad to see there seems to be a lot more racism in america than i thought and, it is only getting worse. But i think obama has tried very hard. I think he has done everything he can to combat racism, and i think he has done the right things. Melinda karen taylor, obama had the entire Republic CongressRepublican Congress against him from the beginning. He had overtly racist statements made by a number of representatives in both houses of congress. Decisive andn more more confrontational on race issues, isnt it possible he could have been making the divisions worse instead of better . Karen first, i would not agree that the u. S. Is more racist now than it has been eight years ago. For me, imtion, disappointed as well that he didnt make the positions, or was not that clear in how he talks abouout Racial Discrimination. But i get that in the system, where somebody who has pointed out that the racist becomes the victim, it is very difficult for him to not offend the majority, or to push the majority away. I get that he was in this dilemma, of how do i stand and make my point clear . Because he has definitely faced discrimination as a black person. Even from his personal standpoint, he could have made a change by just pointing out what he has faced, and what he is still facing. Melinda but in fact, Rieke Havertz, didnt he do that . He talked about in a speech, i have been batman,n, when i cross i haveeet, thats when been batman, when across the street, people get into their cars, or they clutched their purse. I am that man, who has to talk about the potential for violence, as a son. He has done that have talking, and 20 investigations with the Justice Department. In your Opening Statement, you said he could have done a great deal more. Are you sure, and the Political Climate . Rieke it has been a very big dilemma. He had his moments, he gave great speeches. He had to give them because ofof the violence andnd incidences. He walked across the bridge in selma, saying this is remembering 50 years of civil rights. Of course, he had his moments. But i think he was very eager black appear as a president. He wanted to be the president of the United States. I think he should be just that, but the past eight years show that maybe some occasions, he should havave been more a black president. Erik but very early, he was critical of boston policemen who beat up a black guy, and he was attacked by that by the whole country. He did the right thing, he had a beer with the policeman, and the black guy. Melinda and the blackck man was actually a harvard professor. He was tried to get into his own house. Erik it led to a a big discussn in the u. S. Obama realizes he does not want to exacerbate racial tensions, and ever since then he has tried to heal the wounds,. Melinda because we are very close to the end of the show lets talk briefly about how to heal the wounds,. Motto,ted states, the out of the many, one. Certainly, that is not what we are seeing. What has to happen, how can we change the situation . Done i think obama has the right thing by saying we need to communicate more. That is a huge issue. We are talking about people who are afraid of things that dont exist, because of their biased thinking. Of course, we need to get everybody at the table and talk about the issues, and address the issues, and not just push them away and say, we are doing our part, why arent you . I think that is an important first step. There are a lot of answers to that question. I think we need to talk more. I think you need to change policy. We need to change social injustice that still exist. Do better for educational equality for all people in American Society. I think we need to have stricter gun laws to decrease the number of guns so that Police Officers, are better trained in the future, and are not afraid to walk in front of a house, because they are afraid they might get shot. We just need to address diversity. Chicago, for insnstance, there s not one neighborhood where it is truly diverse. They all live in different neighborhoods. Lets create a neighborhood that is diverse and have a beer. Erik the Election Results can be very important. If the parties that are racist are clobbered, it can be a strong signal for reuniting the United States. Melinda thank you very much to all of you for being with us. Thank you to all of you for tuning in. See you soon. 8uxun . nnwc [applause] Tom Goldtooth this is my home. This is our home right there. Its the mother earth. Everything around here has life, has spirit. Theres spirit to the trees, the ground, these plants, even this air and the wind, the wind that blows. [applause] oh. [speaking native language] hello, all my relations. [speaking native language] [speaking native language]