Can we still adapt . Hello from berlin and a warm welcome to this weeks to the point. Im javier aguas and im joined by our guests in the studio this week that id like to introduce claudia kemp is the head of Energy Transportation and environment at the German Institute week that id like to introduce claudia kemp is the for economic research. Matthew karnik is a journalist and correspondent with politico here in berlin. And mein m is the head of migration and diversity at germanys Heinrich Foundation to with politico here in berlin. And mein m is the all of you. Welcome. Thank you for taking your time for being with us today. And claudia, id like to start with you in this very complex, uh, but a topic that different differently also, um, hits everyone. Everyone is talking about, uh, the heat waves, storms, hurricanes in the topic that different differently also, um, hits everyone. Everyone is summer here in europe. And yet some say this is just the regular weather phenomenon. What has changed, what is different now, what is different is that we have more just the regular weather phenomenon. What has changed, what is weather extremes. That means the fires that we see the droughts and also sometimes extreme rainfalls, which could also bring i mean, some kind of extreme um cases in all of the world and this has been changed. Its not only weather, its Climate Change and that means that we are on a global level of 1. 11 degrees celsius. And if it reaches more, then we see even more and extreme weather events all over the globe. Now, this seems like something that is getting more extreme. Um and some are shocked and id like to ask you, this is maybe a little bit newer in the Northern Hemisphere, but the so called global south has seen it a long time ago. So are we only giving this level of coverage because its dark skies in new york city and extreme temperatures in rome . Thats definitely true. I mean, um there have been always cycles of drought in many countries in africa and uh cycles of floods rising sea levels et cetera in many asian countries. So we had it in the history. But now the um the um the amount of Climate Change has been changing, the the the lifestyle of people dramatically, people are heavily under pressure because they have been losing their livestock, they have been losing their farms. So locus over flooded areas, et cetera. So the implication of Climate Change is massive in other countries so still we are affected by it, but we are still in a privileged coco i would say. So the so still we are affected by it, but we are effects in other hemispheres in the southern hemisphere, in asia in africa, in latin america is massive. So i think effects in other hemispheres in the southern hemisphere, in asia we need to shift the perspective as well. Matthew you come from the us state of arizona that has been particularly hit uh in the last few days. What are you hearing from people back home . Well, it, its always hot there to be fair at this time of year its always uh well above 100 f in, in the forties, celsius. Whats changed now is that you have really long periods of really extreme heat. And so youre looking at 45 to 48 degrees over weeks and its, its really something i think that, you know, people start to feel in their bones in a way that they dont normally my, my mother has a dog that she like to take walking, for example. But now the, the sidewalks are too hot to, uh, to take the dog out so she had to put little boots on the dog are too hot to, uh, to take the dog out unfortunately, i think he ate some of the boots to find another solution. But, uh, it, it is really, its gotten to the point where, even at night where, because its a desert there, it normally would cool at night its no longer really falling, you know, that much at night. The temperature. So, its, its really something that uh is is hitting everybody who lives who lives in that night. The temperature. So, its, its really something that uh region. Everybody is feeling it. And yet discussions about climate are always difficult and to a certain extent, abstract, nobody can really predict exactly what is going to happen tomorrow or in a month. But a simple look at the can really predict exactly what is going to happen tomorrow disasters of the last few weeks already shows that evidence of the Destructive Force of Climate Change is hard to disasters of the last few weeks already shows that evidence ignore. The us is being hit particularly hard by extreme heat waves in the west and south of the country there are record temperatures of up to 46 degrees celsius the National Weather service warned of an extremely dangerous heat wave with no cooler temperatures in sight for millions of people. China and Southern Europe are also suffering under record high temperatures. Heat waves are prompting health warnings. Tourist sites are closing due to extreme weather worldwide. Its the hottest june on record. Extreme drought increases the danger of new fires worldwide. In canada, wildfires have been out of control for, of smoke have even reached europe. Months of drought and no rainy seasons in many regions of south america for, of smoke have even reached europe. Months of drought and africa, there is no water and no food which for, of smoke have even reached europe. Months of drought makes them inhabitable torrential rain and slides into the, the country. Dozens of people have lost their lives and large parts city day. Well, thats of course, the question. Its hard to stay optimistic when we see images like that claudia as a researcher though, will it get worse . Unfortunately yes, because we see from all we know from Climate Science that shows that the emissions that has been already in the atmosphere will bring more extreme events like this in the future. And this is what we cannot, i mean, stop anymore, this will happen for sure. But what we can do is to bring the emissions down, the global Greenhouse Gas emissions coming from fossil fuel burning down to a level that the most severe impacts can be can be lightened. So to say, and that can be stopped, not stopped but limited to a certain extent. And that is what we have to do. But unfortunately, we stopped, not stopped but limited to a certain extent. And see only this is only the beginning and we will see much worse impacts in the future. Why is it so difficult to bring people on board though . Matthew, people see the images, they hear that the solutions are there do you think maybe people think that its not gonna hit them personally . I i think thats 11 aspect of it and the other aspect is that people dont want to give things up if you have uh a nice suv, for example, and you live in the United States and you like driving that car. Uh if you have a big air conditioner um cooling your, you know, 10,000 and you like driving that car. Uh if you have square meter house, those are things people are, are want to give up. I mean, im exaggerating with these examples but um i think that thats part of it because you know, i think ultimately to resolve these problems is going to mean that were going to have to change the way we live. And i think that reality has has not hit enough people in the wealthier countries around the world, including the United States and including much of europe. Still, i would argue a lot of people on earth have to give things up because they have no choice. But here we have a choice and we can still drive which is electric driven, for example, or the air conditioning coming from renewable energy, electricity might be an alternative. So here in the rich countries, we have Technological Solutions which we, which are there, but we have to implement until the fossil fuel lobby is very strong in trying to extend their, their Business Models as long as they can. But we have solutions which we can change but you mentioned an important point. Some people have no they can. But we have solutions which we can change choice in some countries. People actually have to leave where they live in order to find another place that is habitable, that seems to move some people here in europe the fear of the climate migration, which is a real threat. Do you think that could lead to more Climate Action ultimately . Well, thats the other uh scenario, the other threat. Perhaps migration is something also which is which people also feel as a threat in north america in europe so what we are discussing here are we feeling what are the effects of Climate Change for us . So how do we convince people . How do we bring more consensus thats the one thing, the other thing is we have to act urgently in other areas of the world because for them, its not something in the future, it is to act urgently in other areas of the world because already the reality. So there is a huge pressure actually as a human being or as a mankind, we have to be extremely vigilant and also find an urgent solution because people are already losing their existence. So thats the other reality while we are here still struggling to give up some of our privilege. So how do we uh manage our privilege . So we are talking about management of privilege here while others are already struggling to survive. So these are two narratives we have uh in this global debate. But how do you make that case . Matthew, no politician will stand up and say, hey, we will have less Economic Growth. Uh you will have less privileges, but were gonna be more sustainable. How does that work . Well i think what has to happen is whats happening now to, to really get peoples attention about the dire situation that were in, uh, globally because until you get temperatures like what were seeing in rome or like what were seeing in, in greece now, for example, or in, in in, in the us and parts, people just arent paying attention. There was a massive flood last year, for example in pakistan, thousands of people were killed. I mean, this was, you know, sort of a biblical proportions, this flood i dont think that anybody in europe, you know, is is talking about that anymore or has any sort of you know, real knowledge of what the consequences of, of that flood were, although they were, they were epic and i, i think it really has to hit home here before people, you know, really start taking it seriously. And before that is transferred into actual policy of the kinds of things that uh claudia is talking about. Uh the before that is transferred into actual policy of the kinds there are potential solutions, were not there yet. Um you know, germany, for example, is tryrying to shift to renewabe energy has made a lot of progress on that front but is still burning coal. For example, china is still opening new coal fired power plants, for example, which is incredible when you think about where we are. So i think, you know, it needs to really hit home in these countries and for people to feel it personally before were going to see genuine change. When we talk about making an economic case as well, we know that there are potentials but people dont seem to get it that actually doing Climate Action can bring more wealth. Yeah. And are potentials but people dont seem to get it that it could because if you look at the Solutions Like are potentials but people dont seem to get it that an electric car, for example, of course, its now more expensive than a conventional car but this is changing soon and then the people have a choice or also electricity coming from renewables. If if you have a solar panel on your roof, it brings cheap electricity, but you have to pay for the solar panel. So, but this all brings Economic Growth and this all brings economic chances and this is where we are, the solutions are there. But we have also to face that the fossil fuel industry wants to extend their Business Models as long as, as we have also to face that the fossil fuel industry long as they can and they do everything to extend it. But as soon as we have solutions which are cheap and also affordable for the people, they will, they will use it. Im pretty sure. But what do you cheap and also affordable for the people, they will, they make of this tendency to say there are Technological Solutions you dont have to do anything, we will take care of it. Well, we need both. I mean, we need regulation where the companies, i mean have to pay higher co two prices or have to change their Business Models because they are forced to do so. On the other hand, we need solutions also for the people and the people can do itself a lot. If they, for example install a solar panel on the roof, they are part of the solutions. And here we have solutions. But uh right now, uh especially, especially in the industry, countries, we have a lot of choices but in many other countries of the world not. And here we need Global Solutions which is really important. I think if just i may add, not only the ethical, the moral issue, but i think the economic incentives are also very important that theres a lot to win by, by shifting, by having this transformation. If we see into the electric vehicle industry, um a lot to win by, by shifting, by having this apparently, pressure was necessary to shift the perspective of those uh companies or industries which were well established. So of course, they had the know how of course they had the technologies but sometimes pressure but also um political move is also very important in order to motivate also other companies and also well established companies to make a transformation so i think we need both, you know, like debating talking, but on the other side, putting some economic incentives into the whole transformation, you mentioned that a political move can be very important pressure as well. The fact is this battle cant be won without the two biggest emitters of Greenhouse Gasses. Were talking about the us and china despite delicate relations, representatives of both countries met to talk about urgently needed measures. Currently, the world is facing a daunting challenge of climate response. It is necessary for china the United States and indeed all the countries in the world to strengthen coordination, build consensus and speed up action we also have to read the two largest emitters of Greenhouse Gasses and so the imperative of our two countries coming together and working and showing the rest of the world how we can operate and begin to address this coming together and working and showing the rest of the the urgency it requires. So weve seen leaders of the us and china seemingly working together. What can they actually do . Well, they can do a lot because combined, i think they account for about 40 or so of, of global emissions. And uh you know, china, in particular, if think they account for about 40 or so of, of you look at the, the co2 chart of china since 1990 or even since 2000, it looks like a hockey stick, its gone, you know, really, really uh surged upward um the United States is still the, the, the largest emitter per capita. Um but at least its not rising co2 emissions havent, havent risen recently. And thats, i think mainly because the us has switched to gas, natural gas and, and, and moved away from coal. But because these two countries are interdependent economically, i think that the negotiations between them could really sort of take the world in in the rightht direction because if you look at other countries in europe and germany, for example, accounts for only 2 of of global co two emissions. So whatever germany does might set a good example, but its not really going to move the needle further. So you need these two countries, you need the us and china in lockstep here to really take measures that are going to bring emissions down. And unfortunately, because there have been tensions between the two countries over the past few years, youve seen emissions down. And unfortunately, because there have been tensions between that effort go a little bit off the rails. And china, for example, has started to use more coal because thats what they have at home. They dont have have other sources of energy really. So they revert to using coal. And i think it needs, you need this negotiation and trust between the two countries in order to move this process forward and then the rest of the world and trust between the two countries in order to move is watching mcconnon and maybe other countries think why do we have to implement measures against Climate Change if these two are responsible for so much percentage of it . Yeah i mean this debate, we had this the last 30 40 years. Why do we pay the price for others emissions . You know, its at the cost of our development so how can we catch up to the development of the north, the global north and so on . So we have all discussion and yet we dont have any other alternative than really to, you know, like to push for a new agenda, a new um uh uh ecological uh transformation, et et cetera. So maybe we need to jump over this uh ambition to make development at the cost of uh the environment. So, i mean, it is an ethical debate that many the glo global cells says also its also our right to develop. Uh but then, you know, it is an urgent issue because people in the global cells are dying, they are losing their um uh uh existence and also their livestock and uh their homes global cells are dying, they are losing their um uh so every year, around 20 Million People are leaving their homes because of the drought, 20 Million People within the countries, then next to the neighboring countries and some are even shifting to another continent. So this is the reality right now and maybe by the end of this century it may be up to 1 billion people who will be on the move. So yes, the global south has the right to develop but also the responsibility uh to be part of this transformation. Maybe if you cannot trust the big powerful countries, solutions can also come from a local level. The majority of the worlds population lives in cities. Climate change is particularly noticeable here, especially in the form of extreme heat and rising sea levels. New ideas cities. Climate change is particularly noticeable here, especially in the are needed to ensure that metropolises do not soon become uninhabitable. The sea has already engulfed most of the beach are needed to ensure that metropolises do not soon become the egyptian city of alexandria could be in ruins soon this concrete wall is supposed to protect the citys more than 5 million inhabitants from rising sea levels. In the netherlands, floating houses are being used to adapt to the rising water levels. Heat is stored in asphalt and concrete to combat this green spaces. This skyscraper in singapore is supposed to cool itself. A total of 25,000 square meters of vegetation helps the facade to be seven degrees temperature also these light colors effect the indian industrial metropolis, puna relies on parks and expanding bike paths, water to cool down like the shower in tokyo. How can we best protect ourselves against Climate Change . Claudia . When you see those solutions . Do you think thats the right way . Thats where we need to, its an important way because most of the emissions are coming from cities. But also we need to adapt and this is why we need cooling spaces we need other, i mean buildings like we are doing right now that they offer more, cooling, more water for the people. And here we have both on the one hand and solutions to protect climate by getting the emissions down, but also the solutions for helping people to adapt and to, to live in a way. And right now a lot of cities do not offer it in enough for in many ways, especially if we are looking in germany, i mean, the big cities have are not facing it right now and we need to change. But yet that also costs money costs a lot of money and um money and uh Raw Materials are very scarce when we talk about, for example, vegetation water, this is something which is very, very limited, especially in the global south where for example, water has been always uh extremely expensive raw material. And in the future, it would be even more, maybe we would have the next conflicts around water so this is a troubling issue. So how do we uh manage the transformation, especially by, by having new green cities . So how can we adapt other um architectural uh designs which may help us . So i think this is a very good beginning, but i think the mankind has been always dealing also with such climates in various regions of the world. So i think there is more knowledge in this world if we are ready and open to learn from each other and adopt other um City Building measures. Yeah, when you hear all of this matthew, do you think um that maybe the fact that its now hitting it hard in the Northern Hemisphere can actually be in a way very carefully, a positive thing because it shifts change more quickly. Well, i certainly hope so. I and i think we are, you know, seeing people, you know, concentrate more on, on, on these issues. Now, were sitting here having this discussion and i, i do think know, concentrate more on, on, on these issues. Now, were again that people here need to really feel it firsthand in order to sort of spur them into action. Um because, you know, as, as weve heard its, its, its been a reality in, in the global south, uh, for for some time and if you follow the news regularly on any given day, i mean, were feeling it right now in europe, but on any given day at any time of year theres going to be, you know, a cyclone or some sort of extreme weather event often and most often in africa or uh asia and, and people here tend not to, to really pay attention. So i think, you know, it is also an opportunity and the question is, you know, for business in wealthy countries, how are they going to take advantage of this . As, as we heard, the car industry, particularly in europe, particularly in are they going to take advantage of this . As, as germany was very slow to recognize this opportunity to adapt are they going to take advantage of this . As, as to this change and theyre still trying to catch up but youve seen other Companies Come out be it tesla or byd in china, a big electric car maker. Um you know, take advantage of that and, and be very successful. So i think we shouldnt just focus on, on you know, take advantage of that and, and be very the positive when having these discussions because there are opportunities there as well. We have time for a very quick the positive when having these discussions because there are opportunities last round of yes, no questions. Is there room to be optimistic in all of this . Well, i i mean i, im very pessimistic but right now, but there is room for optimism, i think because we have a lot of solutions and we are here the privileged one and can change it. What do you say . Is there room to be . I i trust uh the mankind to be even more um to, to improve the situation but also inventive. On the other side, we need to learn more from the perspective of the other. So its an extremely urgent issue because people are really suffering right now and we are trying to manage our privilege. So i think people will learn from those uh perspectives is one last we are trying to manage our privilege. So i think word from. Uh well, i would be uh maybe a little bitit more pessimistic in the short term. Uh a bit more optimistic in, in the long term, we will definitely stay with that to all of you. Thank you very much for watching. Remember that you can also watch our program on our youtube channel. Thats dw news. Just look forward to the point. Im a to all three of you. Thank you very much for being here and