Transcripts For LINKTV Democracy Now 20160303

Clinics. Democracy now was in washington, d. C. , where thousands gathered outside the Supreme Court. I think quite simply the question before the court was whether or not a steak and regulate abortion rights out of existence and still have roe have any meaning at all. What is the point if you have no fundamental way to access it . Amy then to the libyan gamble. The New York Times publishes a major twopart expose on how Hillary Clinton as secretary of state pushed president obama to begin bombing libya five years ago this month. We did not put a single boot on the ground and gaddafi was deposed. The libyans turned out for one of the most successful, fairest elections that any arab country has had. They elected moderate leaders. Amy today libya is a failed state and a terrorist haven. How much should Hillary Clinton be blamed for the crisis . We will speak scott shane of the New York Times. All that and more, coming up. Welcome to democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. In the latest attempt by the republican establishment to derail Donald Trumps president ial run, former Massachusetts Governor and Onetime Republican president ial nominee mitt romney is giving a speech today at the university of utah in Salt Lake City in which he is calling trump a phony and a fraud. In his prepared remarks, romney writes about trumps his promises are as worthless as a degree from trump university. Hes playing the American Public for suckers. Donald trump has won 319 delegates so far, nearly 100 more delegates than any other candidate. This comes as quite a republican president ial candidates will face off at a debate in detroit, michigan, tonight after neurosurgeon ben carson said in he would not participate in tonights debate and that he does not see a political path forward. Carson has failed to win a single states primary or caucus. Speaking tuesday in baltimore, dr. Carson gave his diagnosis of the political system rotten to the core. As ive had an opportunity to study our system, it has become a little bit discouraging seeing all of the relationships that exist there. It is rotten. It is run to the core. On both sides, democrats and republicans. The Political Class and their , which includes much of the media, you know, they dont like it when someone challenges their authority. Amy meanwhile on the democratic side, former secretary of state Hillary Clinton and vermont senator Bernie Sanders are slated to debate in flint, michigan, on sunday night. This comes as the Justice Department has granted immunity to the former state Department Staffer who set up clintons private email server in her home amid an ongoing criminal , investigation into clintons possible mishandling of classified information. Meanwhile, in flint, new details have emerged about the ongoing water contamination crisis. Newly obtained documents show when the state of michigan loaned flint 7 million in april 2015 in order to ease the citys deficit so it could exit emergency management, a condition of the loan prohibited flint from returning to the detroit system without state approval. This condition was imposed despite the fact that governor rick snyders office was, by this time, well aware about the problems with the quality of flints drinng water, which among other things was contaminated with lead. On wednesday, Michigan House minority leader tim greimel and the toledo blade newspaper both called on snyder to resign. Many flint activists have also called for his arrest. Members of the Congressional Black Caucus and the congressional progressive caucus are traveling to flint, michigan, to host a speak out on friday for residents affected by the ongoing crisis. The European Union has proposed a plan to distribute more than 700 million of humanitarian aid within its own borders, as the continent attempts to respond to the needs of refugees fleeing wars in north africa and the middle east. This comes as 30,000 refugees are stnded in eece becse countries further along the balkan route have closed their borders. Meanwhile, in calais, france, police have continued to dismantle parts of the countrys largest refugee camp, known as the jungle. Refugees say the police have been destroying peoples homes and are threatening to destroy community centers, such as Distribution Centers and kitchens, even though a court ruling last week prohibits authorities from dismantling public spaces. At least a dozen refugees have launched a Hunger Strike to protest the ongoing eviction. Five of them have sewn their lips shut in protest. An iraqi refugee named sarwar spoke out. I am planning to go to u. K. , but the border is closed. I cannot live in the jungle anymore because they will not leave me alone. They destroyed my shelter. I dont want to risk my life. Amy in new york city, arguments have begun in a federal appeals case in which the haitian victims are seeking to hold the United Nations responsible for a cholera epidemic that killed more than 9000 people following more than 9000 people. The u. N. Peacekeepers are accused of negligently bringing cholera to the island during the 2010loyment in haitian earthquake. But the United Nations is arguing it has immunity under a 1946 convention, and its lawyers did not attend wednesdays hearing. Meanwhile, in a london courtroom, nigerian communities from the niger delta have brought a lawsuit against energy giant Royal Dutch Shell over repeated spills from shells oil pipelines. The spills have devastated the local farming and fishing industry and have contaminated the drinking water. The nigerian communities are seeking to force shell to pay cleanup costs. It is the second time in five years shell has been sued in london over oil spills in the niger delta. The white house is reportedly vetting federal appellate judge jane kelly as a potential nomination for the Supreme Court, following the death of Justice Antonin Scalia. Kelly was a longtime public defender in iowa before being appointed to the United States court of appeals for the eighth circuit. If confirmed, kelly would become the first public defender on the Supreme Court. Republicans have said they will not consider any Supreme Court nominations by president obama. But democrats believe kellys nomination could pressure judiciary cherry Judiciary Committee Charles Grassley to reconsider this position, because kelly is a prominent i would jurist. Grassley is up for reelection this year. In montgomery, alabama, white Police Officer aaron smith has been arrested for the killing of unarmed African American man gregory gunn. On february 25, the 58yearold grocer was walking home to the house he shares with his mother when the 23yearold white officer shot him several times, killing him. Following the shooting, Montgomery Police chief Ernest Finley told local newspapers that gregory gunn had been holding some form of a weapon. It was later identified as a retractable painters stick. The shooting sparked days of protests and accusations of racial profiling. On wednesday, officer smith was arrested and charged with murder. In oklahoma, the former ceo of Chesapeake Energy has died only , one day after he was indicted on charges of conspiring to fix bids for oil and gas leases. Aubrey mcclendon died wednesday morning after his car crashed into an overpass wall at top speed and burst into flames. Paco balderrama of the Oklahoma City Police Department says mcclendon pretty much drove straight into the wall. The former ceo had made billions off the controversial gas extraction process hydraulic fracturing, known as fracking. He was accused of violating antitrust laws by orchestrating a scheme between two oil and Gas Companies not to bid against each other for leases in oklahoma. And in india, celebrations broke out on University Campuses in delhi after a Court Granted bail to a student leader imprisoned under a colonialera sedition law. Student Union President Kanhaiya Kumar was arrested on february 12 after a Student Group held an evt markinthe anniversary of the 2013 execution of afzal guru, who was convicted of a 2001 attack on the parliament. Kumars arrest has sparked freedom of speech protests across india. On wednesday, a Public Prosecutor announced kumar would be released on bail. Today, the Honorable Court has announced the order there by saying bail has been granted to. He accused amy and those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. Nermeen welcome to all of our listeners and viewers from around the country and around the world. The Supreme Court heard oral arguments wednesday in the most significant Abortion Case in a generation. Abortion providers in texas, led by whole Womans Health, have challenged provisions of a sweeping antichoice law passed by the Texas State Legislature in 2013 despite a peoples filibuster and an 11hour stand by texas state senator wendy davis. The provisions at stake force Abortion Clinics to meet the standards of hospitalstyle Surgery Centers and require providers to obtain admitting privileges at a nearby hospital a task many cant achieve, in part due to antichoice sentiment. Similar laws have passed in multiple other states. Already, with the law partially in place, about half of the more than 40 Abortion Clinics in texas have closed. If the law comes into full effect, the second largest state in the u. S. Could be left with just nine or 10 clinics. Amy with the death of Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia less than three weeks ago, the Supreme Court has only eight justices, making it unlikely the case would set a National Precedent restricting abortion, and opening the way for a fourfour tie. Such a tie could leave in place a Lower Court Ruling largely upholding the texas law, potentially impacting other states in the same Appeals Court circuit mississippi, which has just one Abortion Clinic, and louisiana, where a similar admitting privileges law threatens to close all but one clinic in the state. The stakes were high wednesday when attorney Stephanie Toti stood before the Supreme Court to represent the texas abortion providers. It was her First Time Ever arguing a case at the Supreme Court. After the arguments, she addressed reporters outside. Texas Abortion Clinic have a documented history of safety that goes back for decades. Theres absolutely no evidence of any substandard provider in texas. Those clinics are subject to rigorous scrutiny by state officials. They are inspected at least once a year and often more than that. And the evidence in the record shows that those inspections demonstrate of these clinics have been operating safely. And further the loggins texas regular leaders that told they would need to shut down substandard provider, the state department of health to come in could come in at any time and issue a clinic Closure Order is it really believed that these clinics were not safe. It had the authority under existing laws to shut them down. These laws have nothing to do with safety. These laws are simply about stopping women from accessing their constitutionally protected right to abortion. Amy Stephanie Toti, who argued the Supreme Court case whole Womans Health v. Hellerstedt, speaking outside the Supreme Court wednesday. Well as the arguments went on inside, a few thousand people packed onto the sidewalk outside the Supreme Court. At the center of the crush was an antichoice rally, surrounded on three sides by prochoice demonstrators. Speaking on both sides tried to drown each other out. The supporters of whole Womans Health chanted stop the sham, a reference to what they say is a false claim the texas abortion regulations are aimed at protecting Womens Health. Many supporters wore bright purple, the official color of whole Womans Health. Well, democracy now was there at the Supreme Court wednesday. The journey began early, as democracy now s Amy Littlefield got ready to board a bus in new york. Today the Supreme Court a certain the most important abortion rights case in almost 25 years. We are here in front of the center for reproductive rights in new york cit, E Organization that is arguing the case before the Supreme Court today. It is about 3 45 in the morning. It is dark and raining. We are about to get on a bus with a bunch of activists who are headed down to d. C. To rally in front of the Supreme Court and show their support for abortion rights. Lets get on the bus. What is your name and what are you doing on this us at 4 00 in the morning . My name is monica. I am a woman. I am an obstetrician gynecologist and also in abortion provider. I am here because i support womens ability to self determine and decide when and if they want to have a family. It is a privilege to do the work that i do. It is a privilege to take care of the women i interact with. Theres really no more important place to be today than on this bus. About four hours later, were still on the bus and everyone is getting ready to rally. What we do . Stand up, fight back. We have arrived during washington, d. C. We are off the bus and heading over to the Supreme Court. Sham p the [cheers] are you on fire today . My name is sonia renee taylor, i am a performance poet, activist, and in an apologetic woman who has had an abortion. Let me say that again, i am an unapologetic woman who is had an abortion. 20yearold College Sophomore putting myself through school when i got pregnant. I reject the narrative that there must be some externally decided good enough reason for any of us to access safe am a legal, professional, compassionate abortion care and services. Owe the texas legislature, in touch with your mongers, or even the Supreme Court of the United States any explanation as to why i had an abortion. Corporate Vice President at whole Womans Health, the lead late in the Abortion Case. I am so thankful for so long, we felt as provider so alone. Here, bear be witness as we bring our case to the Supreme Court, is unbelievable. Thank you. Thank you. As a hispanic immigrant from latin america, i know what is like not to have access to safe, legal abortion care. In an environment where womens voices matter, this is why this work is so important for me on both a professional and personal level. I have also witnessed firsthand how laws can force clinics to shut down. I think about the woman on the phone who begged me to see her after our clinic was shut down by this law. I still remember the desperation in her voice when she said, please, please, just see me. I want tell anyone. Please. And not having that logical answer to her because there is no logic he hide it. I am from washington, d. C. Our generation has spent a lot of time thinking that progress is beingmade and it taken from us. If we dont stand up now, we are not going to have a choice. There are a lot of women here that did this work in the 1970s i think my generation thinks it is old news. And now were slowly seeing an erosion of our rights were it is harder to fight if they take it these by piece. It is done to the where it has gotten harder to fight if they take it piece by piece. Why are you here today . 1970s, 1980s, when i had to worry about my reproductive health, i was able to do so. I dont think it is right for people with a lot of money to build a flight are different state to get an abortion it is all about access. I had access, these girl should have access. I cannot believe were still fighting this. My name is dr. Imre schein and i am an abortion provider. I performed my first abortion as a routine procedure in 1980. During my internship at new yorks bellevue hospital. Professors, my mentors remembered wards filled with injured and infected women in the many women who died before abortion was legal and available. We must not forget their stories or their lives and we must remember, women will seek abortion even when it is illegal. Abortion is medical, not political. Abortion is medical, not political my name is brenda perl and i am an activist. Im an africanamerican and i am a woman. Im a student from ohio. I am here to share my story. In the summer of 2014, i became pregnant. I was planning to continue my studies that fall. Having a baby at that time in my life would have the real my plans and goals. I had just enough money for books with not a cent more. Front had a life path in become a path i longed to follow. For that reason, i chose to have an abortion. It was one of the hardest decisions i ever made, but in the end, it was a decision to determine the fate of my life. The state of ohio makes it very difficult for women to access safe, legal abortion. First, you have to schedule an appointment to receive statemandated information misleading information meant to discourage you from having the abortion that is your constitutional right. They also make you have an ultrasound, even after you probably already had an ultrasound. It was painful to feel as pressured to listen to the heartbeat. Then you have to wait 24 hours to come back and the procedure is self. The biggest obstacle was paying for the abortion. In extreme cases coming up to pay for yourself. Im sharing my story with you today to raise my voice about the protection of safe, legal abortion. Also about truth. Free will. Healing. And freedom. Thank you. Amy ohio student brenda pearl speaking outside the Supreme Court when we come back, well wednesday. Hear from proand antichoice sites also the Supreme Court as , the justices heard the most important case on abortion in a generation. Back in a minute. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. Nermeen we return to democracy now producer Amy Littlefield outside the Supreme Court on wednesday. As the court heard arguments in the most significant Abortion Case in a generation, both sides of the abortion debate rallied outside. We are here on the border between the prochoice and the antichoice sides, right outside the Supreme Court. On one side are the prochoice activists. This site are the antichoice activist. And the president of students for life. Why are you here today . We want to show the justices this is a prolife generation, the story majority of americans agree with our site, agree with the common safety regulations in hb two. Issa research recently that seven in 10 people are on the prochoice side. What makes you say that you have more people on your side . You look at the polling and you ask people on the issues, we have the majority. We dont use labels, prolife, prochoice. I dont want to be labeled. I dont even understand what the labels mean. When you ask people, under what circumstances should abortion be legal, were winning all day long. What are you doing here today at the Supreme Court . We are praying, number one, that the court is going to uphold the texas law hb2 and testifying to the fact that women die inside Abortion Clinics. Commonsense regulation. I want to see abortionended today, but this is common sense regulation that is when a make sure that women are given the best and most Proper Health care. [inaudible] yes, because abortion is simply cannot or will not rise to the level of being a normal position. You dont come out of medical school by and large and say, i want to become an abortionist. You sink to the level of being an abortionist. It is so common sense to see these people completely angry is they are off their rocker. It sounds like you might agree with one thing on the prochoice side, that these laws are ultimately threatening to and perhaps aimed at ending abortion, right . I will do anything safe, legal, and moral to end the child killing. You know what that does . It saves womens lives and babies lives. These women are chanting to kill more babies. I find that disgusting. Theou been criticized in past for some of your tactics. Some people have gone so far as to call you a domestic terrorist and say you call for the murder of abortion providers. Is that true . It is ridiculous. If any of that were true, i would not be a list and here. Inone more question, one three women will have an abortion by age 45. What happens to those women and abortion becomes what abortion becomes an accessible in the United States . Imagine is, they have a beautiful baby. I am from austin, texas. We are here on the border between the prochoice and antichoice side, and there is a sign someone is putting behind you. In itself it is problematic because that is a liberal baby literal they be that is three months old. That doesnt make any sense. Youre talking about the picture on the sign. Do you have a response . She said what is on your sign is not a fetus, it is a baby. Bywe do not discriminate age, location or looks. We love babies. Every child has to be cared for a matter where theyre located. That is why we love. That wasnt the argument, but, ok. The argument is that theyre talking about aborting fetuses. Fetuses are not babies. Babies are born. That is the definition of a baby. [indiscernible] do you have a response to that . This is a female. We left emails. We protect females whether they are in the womb or not. We do not believe promiscuous sex gives you a right to kill. You can have as much promiscuous sex as you want, but we dont kill. Thank you for giving me the right to have i did not know you controlled my body. Thank you for that. I saw myself pregnant in july of 2015. And while it was an unplanned pregnancy, it was a very wanted pregnancy. I wanted to have my baby. You know what i did . I do it women are supposed to do, we go get prenatal care. And i start getting prenatal care for my baby. But soon after i started getting the prenatal care, the doctors thought something was wrong with the fetus. Son receiveks, my hisdiagnosis that meant brain did not fully develop. My son had half a brain. By doctor told me i had two choices. I could continue to carry the pregnancy or i could terminate the pregnancy because it was 100 compatible with life. I live in austin. And i say, you know what . Doc, can we take care of this right now . The doctor said, no, unfortunately because of the texas laws, get to go to planned parenthood or another provider. What, was i emotionally destroyed. Was i mentally distraught. I broke down crying. I did not know what to do, and i also found out that it was a multiple day process that i would have to go through. Knowing that my baby was 100 not viable. Eventually, i flew to florida. I flew to orlando him at the next day i flew to orlando the next day. I could not wait another day. And had i not had the resources, i dont know if i would be here talking to you today. Parker,up, dr. Willie who provides abortions in the south and it looks like he is wearing a purple hat with an emblem of a golden uterus. I flew in from jackson, mississippi. I saw people, women at the last clinic in mississippi. Yesterday i saw a woman from louisiana now that state will only have one claim because of recent just one clinic because of recent changes in the law. She came to jackson because it was the closest to her. I told her i would be here today and she told me she worked in an er as a Health Minister later and they were seen women with complications from doityourself medications on the internet. When i told her i was going to be here she said, you make sure you tell them of their what is happening down here. So im keeping my word to her. Merica, we have a problem but dont worry, theres a doctor in the house. [cheers] because today im going to diagnose that problem and im going to make some treatment recommendations. I spent the last 25 years of my career figuring out the problems of Womens Health. So when i put my medical hat on this is not my medical hat and i look at Womens Health in this country, it seems to me that we have an epidemic of invasive political conservati tis. What is that . It is where the bodies of reproductive age women in this country are being invaded by species of conservative politics where politicians are in place of making rules about things they dont know anything about. So here are these two dueling rallies. Dr. Willie parker was speaking as a prochoice rally just several yards away from the Supreme Court, House Speaker paul ryan suddenly emerged from the Court Building and addressed the rally. We are the Prolife Movement and we are here and we are here to stand up for the unborn and the rule of law. Our final speaker at this rally to close us out today, when you start a lawsuit, it takes a brave person to step forward. Im so proud to now introduce the ceo of whole Womans Health. Just look at all of you. Many of you took off work, got on buses from all across the country. You arranged childcare and some of us have even brought our kids along. And you have come here in the cold to stand united for abortion access. Thank you for making the journey. But heres the sad part. However far you traveled, however tough it was, for most of you, coming here today was nothing compared to what a woman in texas goes through to get an abortion. I dream of a world where no one comes into my clinics thinking that the only person they know who has had an abortion. Thinking that they are the only christian that has had an abortion. Thinking that the only good mother who is had an abortion. We stand in opposition to hb2 and any law like it that shuts down clinics, forces women to delay care, and creates obstacles to abortion. That we also stand for something. We stand here to affirm that women are good. [cheers] we stand to affirm that women are moral and kind. [cheers] to affirm that when a woman has decided to end pregnancy, we can witness her dreams and aspirations and affirm that she is put on this earth to see them out and act on her own gifts. For is the world we stand and that is the world we will create together. Thank you. [cheers] amy president and ceo of whole Womans Health, the lead plaintiff in the most significant Abortion Case in the generation, speaking outside the Supreme Court wednesday as the court heard arguments in the case. A special thanks to democracy now any littlefield. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. During wednesdays arguments the three women on the , Supreme Court led the criticism of the texas abortion restrictions. Ruth Bader Ginsburg questioned texas argument that the restrictions dont create an undue burden because some women can travel to a clinic across state lines in new mexico where the same restrictions are not in place. Thats odd that you point to the new mexico facility, ginsburg said. If your argument is right, then new mexico is not an available way out for texas, because texas says to protect our women, we need these things. But send them off to new mexico, and thats perfectly all right. Amy joining us now is Jessica Mason pieklo, senior legal analyst and Vice President of law and the courts at rh reality check. Shes coauthor of, crow after roe how separate but equal has become the new standard in Womens Health and how we can change that. Welcome to democracy now the significance of what to lace yesterday in the Supreme Court and these arguments, the questioning by the Supreme Court justices, jessica . Yes. The questions are very significant. I think we see that the president ial elections matter, the female justices were all over the attorneys from texas in terms of their purported reasons for supporting the law as a health and safety regulation when it clearly, from those justices perspectives at least, was not rising to that level. Nermeen could you explain what the potential outcomes are given the eightmember Supreme Court at the moment . Sure. We have a couple of different options. As you mentioned in your introduction, one is the possibility of a 44 time. Should the justices split 44, that would likely leave in place the fifth Circuit Decision that has allowed most of these regulations to go to take effect. Should the court tie 44, there is a probable theres a good chance that will probably try to rehear the case in the following term when hopefully they will have all nine justices. That is one option. If Justice Kennedy could decide to side with the liberal justices and there are some questions in the argument that suggested he was at least considering that, in which case the fifth Circuit Decision would be overturned or there is the possibility of them kicking it back down to the fifth circuit with specific questions and saying, we would like some more evident sherry evidentiary factfinding on the Surgery Centers. If that happens, i was suspect the court leaves in place the order that is currently preventing the law from taking effect as widely as it would should they decide to uphold the fifth circuit completely. Amy jessica, how will this case affect other cases before the Supreme Court, on mississippi and louisiana . Louisiana has a case before the court that can close all but one clinic. Yes, so the state of louisianas response to the Supreme Court was due yesterday. There is an emergency petition because similar to texas, the fifth circuit decided to overturn a District Court order blocking these provisions in louisiana and say they should take effect while the appeals process takes place. That is important because as we have seen an texas, it is very difficult to reopen clinics once they close at which is exactly the point of these kinds of laws. The Supreme Court has to decide what it is when you do with louisiana. Meanwhile, mississippi. The Supreme Court is still sitting on a case, jackson v. Currier, challenging similar restrictions and if they go into effect, would close the states only clinic. In that case, the fifth circuit ruled the mississippi law should not take effect because of that very fact that it was designed to close the only clinic. So the fifth circuit has made a mass of the law in its own area mess of the law and its own area. The seventh circuit blocked a similar measure in wisconsin. One of the reasons the Supreme Court is going to have to eventually, if not in this case in the next one, decide this issue is because we have in this country right now a patchwork of laws and access for women. Some women can access Abortion Clinics and care when they needed, and many, many cannot. Amy Jessica Mason pieklo, thank you for being with us senior , legal analyst and Vice President of law and the courts at rh reality check. Shes coauthor of, crow after roe how separate but equal has become the new standard in Womens Health and how we can change that. Coming up, the libyan gamble. New york times has just published a twopart expose on how Hillary Clinton pushed president obama to begin bombing libya five years ago this week. We will speak with a reporter scott shane. Stay with us. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman with nermeen shaikh. Nermeen five years ago this month, the United States and allied nations began bombing libya Striking Forces loyal to , libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi. The Obama Administration said the strikes were needed to enforce a nofly zone and to protect libyan protesters who took to the streets as part of the arab spring. Inside the Obama Administration there was a deep division over , whether the United States should intervene militarily. One of the most hawkish members of obamas cabinet was then secretary of state Hillary Clinton. The New York Times has just published two major pieces looking at clintons role puing for e bombinof libya. E speciareport ititled, t libya gamble. A momen we wille joined scott sne, one the reports coahors, bufirst, video package produced by the New York Times. Hillary clintons role in the military intervention that ousted Muammar Gaddafi in libya is getting new scrutiny as she runs for president. The u. S. Relationship with libya has long been complicated. Colonel gaddafi who ruled from hunting 59 to 2011 was an eccentric dictator link to terrorism. When he gave up his Nuclear Program a decade ago and provided information about al qaeda, he became an ally of sorts. 2009 when mrs. Clinton was secretary of state, she welcomed one of colonel gaddafis sense to washington. Deeply value the relationship between the United States and libya. Two years later when colonel gaddafi threatened to crush the arab spring in libya, she helped persuade president obama to join other countries and bombing his forces to prevent a feared massacre. This operation is already saved many lives, but the danger is far from over. The military campaign ended up ousting colonel gaddafi and secretary clinton was welcomed to libya on a victory tour. A few days later, colonel gaddafi was killed the opposition fighters. We came, we saw, he died. The new western backed government proved incapable of uniting libya. In the end, the strong man stepped led to chaos. When four americans were killed by terrorists in benghazi in 2012, it revealed just how bad things had gotten. Colonel gaddafis huge arsenal of weapons as shown up in the hands of terrorists in places like gaza, syria, nigeria, and mali. Hundreds of thousands of migrants have fled on boats. Many have drowned. The power vacuum has allowed isis to build its most dangerous outpost on the libyan coast. Today, just 300 miles from europe am a libya is a field state. Meanwhile back at home, mrs. Clinton has struggled to defend the decision to intervene. Im not giving up on libya and i dont think anybody should. Were mistakes made . Theres always a retrospective. I know we offered a lot of help and i know it was difficult for the libyans to accept help. Amy that video by the New York Times accompanies a major twopart series on Hillary Clinton, titled the libya gamble written by jo becker and scott shane. Scott shane joins us now from washington, d. C. He is also author of a new book objective troy a terrorist, a , president , and the rise of the drone. It is about the First American to liberally killed in a drone strike, anwar alawlaki. The book just won the 2016 Lionel Gelber prize. Welcome to democracy now lets start with this twopart series. Clinton spar power and the dictators fall. Talk about Hillary Clinton as secretary of state and how she led the charge or what she advised president obama in libya. Ago, thereve years was a question about what to do as gaddafis forces approached benghazi. Europeans in the arab league were calling for action. No one really knew what the outcome would be, but there was certainly a very serious threat to a large number of civilians in benghazi. The u. S. Was still involved in two big wars. The sort of heavyweights in the Obama Administration were against getting involved robert gates the defensive protect him and joe biden the Vice President , tom donnellan, the National Security advisor. And secretary clinton had been meeting with representatives of britain, france, and the arab countries. And she sort of essentially called in from paris and then from cairo. She ended up tipping the balance and essentially convincing president obama, who later described this as 5149 decision , to join the other countries in the coalition to bomb gaddafis forces. Nermeen who are clinton has argued in her defense it is still too early to tell what the effects of the intervention have been. And that perhaps accounts for why she is pushing for more military involvement in syria. But obama on the other hand, as you point out in your piece, says the libya experience has made him question each military intervention by asking, should we intervene militarily . Do we have an answer for the day after . Scott shane, can you lay out what you explain happened in libya the day after, as it were . Well, you know, for a few months, it looked like things might go reasonably well. There was some attention to restoring libyas oil industry. And the optimism was based in part on the idea that this is a relatively small country populationwise, about 6 million people. It did not have the sunnishia split that you see in many muslim countries. It had plenty of money from oil to rebuild. Briefly, there was this sort of moment of optimism and secretary clinton made her visit. Her people were actually thinking this would be perhaps a centerpiece of her record as secretary of state. But what happened was the militias that had participated in the fight against gaddafi, you know, essentially aligned with different tribes in andnt cities different cities. It proved impossible for most of these mostly western educated, somewhat detached opposition leaders to pull the country together and eventually, is sort of dissolve into civil war. We justthat piece heard, the tape that caught Hillary Clinton saying, we came, we saw, he died explain. Well, you know, in some ways, i think she would see that as unfair. She was giving a series of tv interviews and that was in a break between interviews. The reporter for the next take was just sitting down in the chair. An aide handed her a blackberry with the news that had the first reports i could offer you might be dead. That was her sort of i think she would say, you know, exaggerated humorous reaction. Think, theure, i fact that she had become very involved in this effort that first sort of began as protecting civilians and sort of evolved into overthrowing gaddafi. To was eager to see an end what had become a surprisingly drawn out affair, given the fact that this very Large Alliance of nato and arab countries were on the rebels side. I think she was relieved and pleased that gaddafis role was over and he was no one around to make trouble. Amy during the democratic president ial debate in New Hampshire last year, Martha Raddatz questioned Hillary Clinton about her support for the 2011 invasion of libya, which toppled Muammar Gaddafi. Secretary clinton, i want to circle back to something that your opponents here have brought up. Ibya is falling apart the country is a haven for isis and jihadist with an estimated 2000 isis fighters there today. He advocated for that 2011 intervention and called it smart power at its best and yet even president obama said the u. S. Should have done more to fill the leadership vacuum left behind. How much responsibility do you bear for the chaos that followed the election . First, lets remember why we became part of a coalition to stop kadhafi from committing massacres against his people. To United States was asked support the europeans and the air partners that we had and we did a lot of Due Diligence about whether we should or not and eventually coming yes, i recommended and the president decided that we would support the action to protect civilians on the ground and that led to the overthrow of gaddafi. I think what libya then did by having a full, free election, which elected moderates, was an indication of their crying need and desire to get on the right path. Now the whole region has been rendered unstable. In part because of the aftermath of the air of spring, inart beuse of theery effeive outrch and propagandizing that isis and other terrorist groups do. Senator sanders . It is relatively easy for powerful nation like america to overthrow a dictator, but it is very hard to predict the unintended consequences in the turmoil and the instability that follows after you overthrow the dictator. So i think secretary clinton and i have a fundamental disagreement will stop im not quite the fan of regime change that i believe she is. Amy im not quite the fan a regime change that she is, says Bernie Sanders in that debate with Hillary Clinton in New Hampshire. Scott shane, from iraq her vote for the war in iraq which led to regime change, to libya, talk about the goal of Hillary Clinton and whether that was even different from the goal of president obama, who she does rapper self around now in all of her president ial campaigning. I think what we found is there is a subtle but distinct difference between president obama and secretary clinton on the question of sort of activism and interventionism abroad. In a situation like libya, there are no good choices. It is certain the conceivable if she kept the other way tipped the other way and if the europeans and others had not gotten involved, perhaps gaddafi would have slaughtered a whole lot of citizens and we would be posing different question started today. President obama is not surprisingly very shaped by the iraqi experience, which he is had to cope with the still ongoing aftermath of the decision to invade in 2003 come all these years later. She, of course, has been a ernment longer and i think her aides say she was also influenced by genocide in rwanda, which taught her the cost of inaction in a situation like that, and by the experience in the balkans, which is sort of cut both ways but i think she through the lesson that intervention could prevent even larger massacres and do some good as imperfect as the outcome was there. So they kind of look back to these different historical expenses and draw different conclusions. Nermeen you report in your piece that shortly after the air Campaign Began in 2011, there was the possibility of a 72 hour ceasefire, potentially leading to a negotiated exit for gaddafi. Why was that offer not taken seriously by the American Military . Well, there was a whole array of attempts to come up with some sort of soft exit for gaddafi, perhaps he would stay in libya, perhaps you would go elsewhere, but i think the bottom line was that the americans and the airpeans and the other countries that were involved in this, all basically felt that kadhafi, who was basically a megalomaniac who have been in office for 40 years and sort of saw him as the savior of his country, just would not, when push came to shove, be willing to cede power. And they felt any kind of ceasefire he would use just to kind of regroup his forces and extend the filing. Whether that was two or not, history will judge. Amy in the issue of this being a failed state right now and clintons responsibility here, as president obama, but she was secretary of state who was advising him, meeting with people on the ground, making her suggestions on pushing forward with war . Yeah, i mean, one reason we did that series is intervention, when, how, whether to intervene in other countries, particularly muslim countries, remains sort of a pressing questions for american president s. And that she is running for the presidency, this is perhaps a revealing case study of how she comes out in these situations. But there are there is no good example of intervention or nonintervention in these countries since the arab spring and before that. I mean, you have a rack where we spent years iraq, where we spent years occupying with a very tragic outcome. You have libya, where we intervened but did not occupy and pretty much state out of it afterwards, not a good outcome. And yes syria, where we really not intervened, not occupied, and you had this terrible civil war with huge casualties. In washington are questioning whether there is any right answer in these extremely complicated countries in the middle east. Nermeen given the spread of isis and libya, your rp some of obamas top National Security aides are now pushing for a second American Military intervention in libya. Yeah, i mean, one of the ironies here is give almost come full circle but instead of targeting could off he and his forces, the u. S. Could off the and his forces, the u. S. Is targeting isis and in the debate by the raddatz uses the number 2000 isis fighters, now up to 5000 or 6000. On the coast of libya, they have formed the most important outpost for the Islamic State outside syria in iraq and the europeans and the americans are very worried about it. There was actually an airstrike on an isis camp in western libya where there were tunisians responsible for some attacks in tunisia. And now theyre looking at possible attacks on the major isis stronghold in libya, which is on the coast. Your piece, you talk about the memo afterwards that highlights Hillary Rodham put, herhrc as it is role, talking about her leadership, ownership, stewardship of this countrys libya policy from start to finish with an eye to the president ial campaign. Can you talk about this, as you put it, this brag sheet . That memo was written in 2011 when gaddafi had fallen and, you know, it looked like they were holding this up as sort of an alternative to the george w. Bush invasion of iraq, a coalition in which the u. S. Was not even the leader and organizer really and it was a very Broad Coalition of nations that had intervened. They saw this as what she referred to as smart power. They really thought this might be something they would hold up as a very successful part of her record as she ran for president. As we have seen, that did not happen. You dont hear them raise the subject of libya on the campaign trail. Amy scott shane, were going to do part two of our conversation after the show about your new book, objective troy a terrorist, a president , and the rise of the drone. Scott shane, National Security reporter for New York Times. We will link to this major expose you did on Hillary Clintons role in the libya gamble. That does it for the show. Never late breaking news, hundreds the hundred has beens organizer assassinated. She was one of the leading organizers for indigenous land rights in honduras. [caption laura today on the Laura Flanders show. Alexa pirates were the first people to create democratic constitutions. , the directorlay of the league of intrapaneurs and the director of the human Agency Collective is here. And in a while, pamela brown will be stepping in. But