The targets of u. S. Bombing campaigns. The refugees have come to try to make passage through the channel tunnel to england. U. S. Is just increasing the war. Actually, u. S. Dont want to finish the war. Its their game. Its the game of george w. Bush, obama, and other all the european union. They dont want to finish. Amy who also speak with french journalist Nicolas Henin. He was held for 10 months. The problem is that with all these bombings because everybody at the moment is bombing syria all of these bombings have a terrible side effect. And basically, we westerners, but not only westerners, also the russians, also the regime are pushing the Syrian People into the hands of isis. Amy all that and more coming up. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. We turn now to two of the biggest stories of 2015, war and europes worst refugee crisis since world war ii. More than 1 million refugees have come to europe this year, three to four times as many as 2014. Almost 3700 died or went missing on their way to europe. The United Nations has appealed for 20 billion in additional aid, saying that at present funding levels the u. N. Is not able to provide even the very minimum in core protection and lifesaving assistance. U. N. Officials cited the wars in syria, afghanistan, iraq, yemen , and south sudan as one of the major reasons there are nearly 60 Million People forcibly displaced worldwide. The largest single displaced community are syrians, with 4 million refugees forced outside syrias borders by the ongoing conflict. In democracy now traveled to december, the calais refugee camp, the largest refugee camp in france. It is about two hours north of paris. 6000 to 7000 people are living there, camped out in makeshift tents. Their goal is to reach britain. Night people set out along the highway to the channel tunnel, where they attempt to cross into britain by jumping on top of or inside trucks or lorries. A few days earlier before we arrived, a sudanese man named joseph was killed when he was run over by a car on the highway. While we were at the calais refugee camp, residents were protesting in the freezing cold, protesting the police had not stopped the driver. People held signs reading, we are humans, not dogs and do survivors of war not have the right to live in peace . Right next to the refugee camp is this overpass, and weve heard that a young sudanese man was killed, hit by a car, and the car didnt stop. And the people are angry because the police didnt arrest the driver. Theyre holding up signs in arabic and english that say, our destiny here is unknown, today, joseph. Tomorrow, who . Where is the u. N. In this . Europe, do you hear our call from calais . Our destiny here is unknown. Can you tell me your name and what youre doing here . My name is majd. Im from syria. Im here, like everyone. Im a refugee, escaped from the war. Yes, from two days ago, it was there was a refugee on the highway, and some people here on the highway killed him. This is a murder. Amy did they run him over . Yes, they run him over on the highway. Yes. It is not the first time. But its the first time he its the first one he is dead, yeah. We have another ones in the hospital. And there is a lot of violence here. The treatment of the police, the treatment of the truck drivers, its not good at all. Yes. Amy and so, what does your sign say . Yes, it say, today, joseph. Tomorrow, who . Maybe me, maybe someone from my country, from my friends, from my family here. Amy where was joseph from . Joseph is from sudan. Amy and where are you from . Syria. Amy and when did you come here . Two months ago. Amy and why are you here . Im here to go to the u. K. , yes. Amy to . The u. K. , united to the united kingdom. Amy yes. Yes. Amy and where did you live in syria . In damascus. Amy and why did you leave . I escaped from the war. I dont want to be to die. This war is not my war. Yes, everyone is fighting in my country, yes. So i escaped from the war. I dont want to be dead for nothing. Amy how old are you . 21. Amy are you a student . No, no. I was working, yes. Amy and what was happening in damascus . In damascus, now its just the assad regime there. Theyre taking all the young people, the young boys, to the war. They must go to the army. Yes, there is no no one there is civilians, yes. Amy and you said everyone is attacking your country. Who . Yes. Who . Everyone. Russia and america and iran everyone. Amy and so, what do you want to do . I just want to live in peace and be like any human again. Yes, to have a family, to be safe. Yes, thats just it. Amy is ur family back in syria . Yes, yes. I have just three two sisters and one brother, small brother. Amy they stayed. Yes, and my father and mother are there. Amy and what did your parents think about you leaving . They just want me to be safe, yeah. They sent me out. Amy do you think the russian, syrian, french, British Bombing of syria will save it . No, no, no, its not a solution. You cant protect someone by killing someone else. You know . They cant stop the bombs here when they bomb in syria. Yes, its not a solution. Amy what is the solution . The solution is not giving the weapons to everyone. Theyre giving the weapons to the free army, to the assad regime, to isis. They just give weapons and money, and just they let them fight in my country. Just stop the weapons. Amy now, britain just voted. The u. K. Just voted to bomb syria as well. You want to try to get into britain. Britain or the u. S. A. The governments or the people . Who votes . Who voted . Im asking. The government, who i mean,. I will go to the u. K. To live with the civilians. I am not going to their government, yes. Amy majd has just taken us to the house that him and his friends have built out of you made it out of wood . Wood, yes. Amy and plastic . Plastic and some blankets. Amy how many of you sleep in here . Three. Amy three of you. Yes, two on the floor and one in the bed, if you can call it a bed. Amy and talk about what when you were in syria, where you lived with your family, what you did, what your parents do. We have a building, whole building. My family was in the upstairs and they have a factory. Yes, a paint factory. Amy a paint factory, yes. Paint factory, yes. It was bombed from five years ago. I was living a good life cars and houses and the parties and everything. Yeah, we lost everything right now. Amy im surprised you can still smile. Yeah, i have to. If i dont smile, it will be the end of my life. Amy i see on your phone you have a picture of your family. Can you show me . Yes, this is my family, my small brother and my father and my sister daughter i dont know how to call it. Amy how many months or years do people stay here . Most of them about there is no specific time or something. Some people, one week. Some people, one year. Yeah. Amy and is it legal . Will the police come and take you out of it, this house or this tent . I told you, there is no specific thing to do with the police. Its not legal, but they cant take us out. Yes, its complicated. They call it a jungle. Yes, its where the animals live. They treat us like animals. Amy does the u. N. Know that youre here, that this refugee camp is here . I think we are invisible to the u. N. Here. We didnt see anyone from them. And we didnt have any help and anything from them. Yeah, i saw them in greece and other countries, but here, there is no one. They dont see us. I dont know. They dont care, maybe. Yes. Amy were just back from majds tent, where he lives with two other men. And were now on the street of, well, makeshift restaurants. Theres a barbershop. This is the kabul cafe. And right here, as were going in, is a map of the whole camp. Lets go inside. Weve come to the back of the kabul cafe its very warm here in this back room to speak with the owner. Can you tell us your name . Yeah. My name is sikandar. Amy and can you talk to us about when you got to this camp . Yeah. Its about more than six months. Amy and where did you come from . Im from afghanistan. Amy where in afghanistan . Nuristan, but i grew up in kabul. Amy and why did you leave afghanistan . Because of war. Because of americans politics. Because of the england politics. Because they come to my country, use the bombs, the weapons. In my country, we dont have any weapons. So these weapons is using in afghanistan, if the terrorists using, if the americans using, if anyone using, just use it in my country. So there is war in my country, and i am here. Amy we just saw a protest about a death of a young man named joseph, a sudanese man who was killed on the highway, on the overpass above. Do you know about that . Yeah, i know. Amy what happened . Its happened every day. Its not just this one time, you know . Its happened every day, every week. And one month before in one month, nine people died here in calais. Amy why are you willing to risk all of this . Because if the people like me, they have problems in their countries, like me. If i have a problem in my country, i have to go forward, you know . I dont have to go back. If i go back, im 100 , i die. But for this, i can risk. I say, ok, maybe 50 , i go. So some people i think people are thinking like this if i go back, i will die, and i have a very bad life. Its better to try, 50 maybe i will go there and i will arrive there, and i will have a normal life. Amy president obama said the war is ending in afghanistan. Do you see it ending . Until americans in afghanistan, it will be not ending. Never. Amy the map of this camp, its like a map of the world or a part of the world. Yeah. Amy its a map of where refugees are from. Most of these countries have been bombed by the United States. I really didnt think about it. The map of the jungle is looking like the map of the world. Amy syria, afghanistan, iraq, sudan. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Its true. I didnt think about it, but, yeah, its true. Amy were walking through the refugee camp, just outside of calais. As we walk, some people just pass us, some people stop and look. And occasionally people stop to talk. But weve been warned over and over that people dont want their faces shown. Theyre afraid. Theyre afraid of being targeted here, and theyre afraid their families will be targeted at home. Its very cold and overcast. Its just rained, so its very muddy. And it looks like its going to be raining again. Do you want to say your name . My name is sidiq husain khil, and i am from afghanistan. Amy when did you come here . I am here since 4. 5 months. Amy and why did you come here . I want to go to u. K. , because in afghanistan, you better know, the situation are very bad. And america comes there. They want to finish alqaeda and terrorism, but they are unsuccessful in that. Instead of that, to finish the terrorism, they increased the war in afghanistan. And the people are in a very bad situation. Its all because of america. Amy where do you come from in afghanistan . I come from kunar. Amy what is it like . Was it destroyed . Was it bombed . Yeah, kunar was totally destroyed. And a big group of americans were there. There was a big base. And still, kunar is under bombing, from even from pakistani side. All areas of kunar is. Each day and every day, the pakistan is bombing on kunar. And at that time, was also american were bombing there, because from the past the people of kunar are all like you know, they are religious people, all of them, like that are the this is the main center of taliban. Amy why do you think theyre bombing . Because they say these people are taliban, they are terrorists, americans are bombing there. And pakistan is also bombing there. Pakistan think that the taliban are hiding here. And they were thinking that osama is also there and the hezbe islami leader, gulbuddin hekmatyar, is also there. Thats why kunar is mostly under attack. Amy were there drone strikes in kunar . Yes, there were drone attacks. Amy and what effect do they have . Did you know People Killed . Theyre always killing innocent people. Theyre bombing on the civilians, on the villages. In fact, they were not taliban. Many times they kill civilians there. Amy and how does that make people feel . They make people unhappy, disappointed, from both sides from government and from the from the whole world, from america, from all the people. Amy alqaeda, daesh, do you think it increased since 2001 . Since 2001, yeah, because, you know, if they are bombing on civilians america or the nato or all these groups if they are bombing on civilians, civilians become very angry, and they join the group of taliban. Thats why if they are killing one person or 10 person, 100 of them are joining the group of taliban. They dont support the government, because government cannot help them. Amy so are you saying the bombing increased terrorism . Yes. The war is not the solution for finishing terrorism. They have to talk face by face. What is their demand, you know . Look to the syria. The whole world is bombing daesh, but they are increasing. They cant do anything. Amy when did you actually leave afghanistan . I left afghanistan in i think in august. I dont know. Five, six months ago. Amy and how did you make your way out . Its a big story. Its very difficult. You know, everyone knows. I come to iran. Then after that, i come to turkey. After that, i come to bulgaria. Amy do you drive . Do you walk . Do you we sometimes we were in buses, sometimes we were walking in the mountains when we were crossing the borders. Amy so from bulgaria to where . From bulgaria to serbistan. Amy to . To serbia. Amy and then . Then to hungary. Amy and then . Then to austria. Amy and then . And then, you know, to italia, france. And now im here. Amy its a very, very long trip. Its a yeah, of course, its a very long trip. Its not that easy just to buy the ticket of airplane and go to the airport, sit in the plane and come directly here. We were just illegally crossing the borders, and that is very difficult, a very difficult task. We lost many of our friends. They lost their they passed away, they lost their lives. And some of the people, theyre not with us now. Nermeen and your family . Is your family with you here . No, my family is not here. Amy where is your family . Theyre in afghanistan. Nermeen so what do you think the u. S. Should be doing now . I told you, you know, u. S. Is just increasing the war. Actually, u. S. Dont want to finish the war. Its their game. Its the game of george w. Bush, obama and all the european , union. They dont want to finish that. Amy why . Because its on the behind, there are their profits, their benefits. They are selling their weapons and using in the islamic countries. This is the big point. How much they spend there . If they spend 100, theyre getting from there 1,000. They dont care about the people who are dying there. Amy president obama said theyre wrapping up the war in afghanistan. Do you feel like the u. S. Is ending the war in afghanistan . What do you mean, sorry, by wrapping . Amy ending the war. Ending. No, never he will end the war. Never he will end the war. Amy can you be safe in afghanistan . I dont think so. If i was safe there i dont like to live here in these tents. And i dont like these, the high buildings, the beautiful countries. My country is my country. But, you know, i was not safe there. Amy did things change here after the november 13 attacks in paris . Yes. But, you know, its everywhere, everywhere the police are checking. The security is very strong. And, yes, its totally changed nowadays. Before it was good. The border was also good. Nowadays, its very strong security. Amy did they come here after the attacks . Yes. Each night, they are coming here. Amy so even though the u. K. And the United States bombed your country, you would like to go live there . Yes, both are the same for us. America, u. K. , france all the European Countries are the same for us because they are bombing our countries and they destroyed our countries. But their countries are ok and good. Amy we then went to another area where there were, well, sort of small campers that people had donated for families. We met a woman who had been a teacher in kabul, afghanistan, before she fled with her four children. She and her 12yearold daughter described their journey. We had to travel by bus, by car, by horse, by train, until here, by boat, all. Amy can you tell me how you got from afghanistan to france . From i will let my daughter tell you. Amy so how did you get from afghanistan here to calais . At first we go to nimruz province of afghanistan. Then we go we went to pakistan. Then we walked to saravan, balochistan. Then iranshahr, kerman, shiraz, tehran, tehran, kurdistan, and, we were at the turkey and iran. Then we start walking in mountains. Then we went to turkish turkiye, then, then istanbul, izmir. Then we arrived to sea. And then amy you took a boat . Yeah, we took a boat. Then amy was that scary . Yeah. Yeah, all of us scared from the boat. At first, when i saw that boat, i dont know about this boat. When i saw that they after that, they said, you come. I called all my children and told and i start to cry. Oh, i bought death by money. I spent all my money to buy them death, for all of you. Yeah. Amy to buy . To buy the death. Amy to buy death for all of you. For all of you. And i start crying. Amy and you made it. And then where did you land . In greece. Amy in greece. Yeah. Amy in greece. And then where did you go from greece . Then we went to macedonia, serbia. Amy macedonia. Yeah. Amy serbia. Croatia. And amy croatia. Croatia. Autriche. Amy oh, austria. Hungary. Ah, hungary, then autriche. Amy oh, hungary, then austria. Yeah. Amy this is quite a geography lesson that you lived. That was dur and her 12yearold daughter. After we left their camper, just as we were heading out of the camp, a young man ran after us. He said he wanted to tell us his story. My name is najibullah. I am from afghanistan, kabul. And i was working with the u. S. Marines back in helmand province, musaqara. And amy when . It was 2011, yeah. Amy what were you doing . I was interpreter with the u. S. Marines, yeah. And we were in a fop, Forward Operation base. And then, yeah. Amy and how long did you work . I was working with them seven years seven months, yeah. Amy and then, also for a u. S. Contractor . And before that, yeah, i was also working in a construction company, in Creative International company. They were running a project by the name of crowded house. That project was from the dod side for they were creating culverts, bridges and retaining walls for the people of daykundi province, yeah. Amy and so did you apply for immigration to the United States . Yeah, i applied for a special immigration visa, but they because i was working just for seven months, the u. S. Government refused to give me visa because they said, you just worked for seven months, not one year. And i sent a letter from the Creative International company that i as evidence that i worked with them also. So if we put all together, it becomes more than one year. But still they said, thats not a kind of evidence. You should send us a hr letter from the international company. Amy sort of on letterhead from Creative International. Yeah. So they said but that letter which i had, that was from the from those people who was working with us from the dod side. And those numbers and emails were just, you know, local from afghanistan. And by the from the day they left afghanistan, those numbers emails doesnt work. And what i am trying to say, that working with the u. S. Government, it doesnt matter. You work just one day or a year or two years or for four years, it doesnt matter to the taliban. As long as you work with them just one hour, youre condemned to death. So thats what happened to me. I was condemned to death. And i am asking the u. S. Government why they refuse me to to give me a visa. And thats why im here. Thats why i am here, im facing this difficulty. Amy just a few of the thousands of afghans now stranded in the refugee camp, about two hours north of paris by train as they risk their lives to reach britain. Double, and in some places triple rows of barbed wire , fences were built recently, securing both the entrance to the chunnel thats the channel tunnel and the tractortrailer staging area for trucks bound for the u. K. All trucks entering the tunnel are also subjected to infrared scanning, looking for body heat, for stowaways. Just months ago, it was common for scores of people to transit the tunnel nightly, hidden in trucks or on the highspeed train. Now its almost impossible. Its 14 years into the u. S. War in afghanistan. President obama had pledged to withdraw the majority of the thousands of u. S. Troops deployed to afghanistan by the end of 2015. But in october, he reversed course and instead indefinitely , extended the longest war in u. S. History. There are nearly 60 Million People forcibly displaced worldwide, the largest number since world war ii. Special thanks to democracy now s laura gottesdiener, nermeen shaikh, hany massoud and denis moynihan. When we come back from break, we speak with a french journalist isil for morey than 10 months. Stay with us. [music break] amy borders by m. I. A. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. While democracy now was in france for the u. N. Climate summit, i interviewed french journalist Nicolas Henin. He was held hostage by the selfproclaimed Islamic State inside syria for 10 months, spending much of that time locked up in a dungeon. He was held alongside u. S. Journalists james foley and steven sotloff, who were later beheaded. Their deaths were videotaped and aired across the world. While he was held hostage, Nicolas Henin also briefly met american aid worker Kayla Mueller, who also died in captivity, possibly from a u. S. Led coalition airstrike. Nicolas henin was released in april 2014 along with three other french journalists. I began by asking nicolas if airstrikes are the answer to combating the Islamic State. Airstrikes in syria, the way they are done, are a mistake. Im not saying that our countries should deprive themselves from any military option. No. The military action should remain in the panel of the strategy. It should be kept as one way to counter terrorism. But the point is that in a counterterrorism strategy, the military shall remain a very little part of the overall strategy, because, eventually, what kind of fight are we fighting . Thats a fight for propaganda. So, basically, the side that will the party that will win this war is not the party that will fight harder or have the most expensive or newest weaponry or the bravest fighters. It will be the party that will manage to have the people on its side. And the problem is that with all these bombings because everybody at the moment is bombing syria all of these bombings have a terrible side effect. And basically, we westerners, but not only westerners, also the russians, also the regime are pushing the Syrian People into the hands of isis. We are working for them. We are recruiting for them. So im not saying, no, absolutely, for any strike, but strikes should remain minimal because we should keep in mind what are the consequences and the side effects of them. Amy you have called them, these strikes, a trap. Yes, very much. And i called them, especially in the french environment because just two months ago, president hollande, the french president , advocated for the strikes, and he announced to my fellow countrymen that these strikes were aiming at securing our country, at making it safer, because he said its better to fight the terrorists of isis there in syria so that we dont have to fight them here at home. And what is the consequence . We have seen with the paris attacks, that these strikes probably contributed to designate us, the french people, even further as a target for isis. So these strikes were counterproductive. Amy so what is the answer, nicolas . The answer is to engage the people, to address especially their cry for their desperate call for freedom, democracy and, first of all, on a very short term, security. Over the last 4. 5 years, Syrian People have been massacred at the pace of 200 people per day. Thats even higher than the death toll of the paris attack. This is something we have to address first because these 200 People Killed every day are the reason for the the primary reason for the success of isis. Amy talk about what happened to you in june of 2013. Bad, bad memory. I mean, i its i was just taken, and i amy where were you . I was in raqqa, so one of the well, the syrian capital city of the Islamic State. And i was reporting. That was my fifth trip to syria since the beginning of the revolution. And they have taken me. I tried to escape on the third day, so of course they were not happy. And ive been moved and moved and moved. And also some people have been moved with me, and eventually, we found out, being two dozen westerners hostages together, journalists or aid workers. Amy why did you open your book with james foley . James was the first to be murdered, and that was a trauma, a personal trauma to me, but also a trauma for the world. And this is why i open my book with him because the aim of the Islamic State by murdering him was to open a trap wide open and under our feet. They wanted to impose their agenda on us. They wanted to stone us, that we are so much shocked that we stop acting rationally. Because, you know, amy, there is something very specific with a terror action. The success, the completion of a terrorist attack, does not depend on its perpetrators, but it depends on its victims. The beautiful example for that is the aftermath of 9 11. I mean, how did the Bush Administration react after 9 11 . We had the invasion of afghanistan and iraq, that later became the birthplace of the Islamic State. We had guantanamo, extraordinary rendition and the patriot act. I mean, one must be totally stupid to believe that we punished Osama Bin Laden and alqaeda, invading iraq and afghanistan. And even the opposite the real success on 9 11, this is not the collapse of the twin towers. The real success of 9 11, this is the invasion of afghanistan and iraq. And this was not made by the terrorists. This success is only due to the victim. The americans were victims of the terrorists, but they offered to their aggressors their success. And this is something that we shall always keep in mind every time we are hit by a major terrorist attack what want our aggressor us to do . What would you like me to do, and how shall i react to displease him . Amy isil hostage, french journalist Nicolas Henin. , well be back with him in a minute. [music break] amy this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. As we return to our conversation with french journalist, isil hostage Nicolas Henin. , he was held hostage in syria by the selfproclaimed Islamic State for 10 months. I asked him about u. S. Journalist james foley, who was beheaded in august 2014, four months after henin was released. When james foley was beheaded, how did you find out . Where was he beheaded . Well, it was i recognized the place because these were valleys where i ran when i escaped. I actually ran very close from this place on the night i escaped at the very beginning of my captivity, so i recognized the landscape. And i was, of course, very much shocked, because i did not believe that that would happen. , was still maybe a bit naive but we filled ourselves with hope, with desperate hope, during these months of captivity. We had to hope because if you stop hoping, then you have no reason to survive. So that was maybe a bit naive to believe that, yes, for some of us, it may be a bit more difficult than for others, but that we would eventually, all of us, make it out. And his murder was the evidence that that wasnt true and that actually some of us, some of our group, would not make it out. Amy how did you ultimately get freed, nicolas . Well, i believe that there has been negotiations for that. I dont know the terms of the negotiation. I dont know what i have been exchanged for. The only thing i know is what the french authorities, what president hollande told me that the french government did not pay any money. So i dont know anything else. Amy so what happened after 10 months . You were held, and then tell us about the day you were freed. Well, it was a bit strange. I mean, i was we were moved to a different jail, away from the group. We had to speak on the day before we were said, well, you will be freed. So and we had to speak for the first time with Kayla Mueller for five minutes. And amy what do you mean, you had to speak to kayla . She they brought us to her cell. So we had five minutes of exchange because, obviously, they wanted us to report that she was with us and alive. And amy what did you say to kayla . What was your conversation . Well, she explained a bit what she had been through. Amy what did she say . She said that she she was looking extremely brave. I mean, she was incredibly courageous. She, at that time i dont believe that she , had been mishandled yet. Apparently she has been , afterwards. Amy raped and abused. Maybe. But she spent several months in isolation, and she but she was impressive. She had a beautiful inner strength. I mean, she was strong inside. She obviously had been through some tough moments, but she managed very well to overcome them. I was just impressed. She was looking beautiful. She was strong. She was i mean, to the point that jihadi john believed that she converted to islam. And she said, oh, i just want to correct you, i did not convert. And, i mean, no one would dare to contradict him, but she did. That was not aggressive. She was just like, no, please let me correct you, i did not convert. And she was just like that, very calm, but very decided. And she even spoke to us a few words of french, because her french was actually quite good. And she yeah, she was really impressive. Amy and who were you released with . With we were four french journalists together, and we have been released together. And they just, after some days in a transit place, drove us to the Turkish Border and then delivered us to the turkish military. Amy were there other women held there . Yes, there were a few women, but they were in a separate cell. Amy and did you know who they were . Yes. Amy who were they . I cannot say, because these cases are under blackout. Amy blackout because . Because of their will and the will of their employer and families. Amy we just came from calais, about two hours north of paris. There were thousands and thousands of refugees there. Talk about the largest explosion of refugees since world war ii and how the west is dealing with them. Well, this huge flow of refugees is a major recruiting argument for populist Political Parties across europe. And thats another trap, because actually, this refugee crisis was a major blow to the Islamic State and to its propaganda. Because what does the Islamic State propaganda rely on . First, they say western society is not suitable for a muslim to live in. A muslim should immigrate to a muslim land, and preferably to the caliphate, because this caliphate that we are establishing is the dream land for all muslims. And the other aspect the other key point of isis propaganda is based on the fact that westerners marginalize muslim, that there is racism and hatred. And basically, what have we witnessed last summer . First, hundreds of thousands of muslims fleeing this dream land of syria. Its like its just like if you had loads of jews fleeing israel just a couple of years after the state of israel is established. I mean, thats a it contradicts all of the speech the state is based on and contracts itself on. And not only that, so they leave this land of sham, that is dream land for isis, to immigrate to lands of unbelievers. And on top of that, they are welcomed with open arms by the western societies, who and by many people in europe who say, well, you are our brothers, and we will protect you. And that was so much a blow that i believe that one of the reasons behind the paris attack was to disrupt this and to stop, to make us close our doors to the refugees because, actually, welcoming refugees is not a Terror Threat to us, to our countries. Its like a vaccine to protect us from terrorism. Because the more interactions we have between societies, between communities, the less there will be tensions. I mean, the Islamic State believes in a global confrontation. What they want eventually is civil war in our countries, or at least, large unrest. And in the middle east, a largescale war. This is what they look for. This is what they struggle for. So we have to kill their narrative and actually to welcome refugees, totally destroy their narrative. And if you kill their narrative, its even more efficient than if you drop some bombs and kill some of their fighters. Amy marine le pen, the farright National Front party here in france, has just surged in the election yesterday. Now, these are regional elections. She her base is calais. What does this mean . Well, she actually benefits a lot from the recent events. Of course, one of the reasons for this surge is the high Unemployment Rate that we have in france and the economic crisis that is continuing. But she benefited a lot from, first, the refugee crisis, with a surge also in xenophobia. And she is very much islamophobic and she plays with that. And the second event was the paris attack. She played with the fear of the people. Amy can you talk about the rise of the National Front and the rise of isis . Well, its surprising to see the parallel somehow and some kind of shared interest between isis and the National Front. It can sound a bit provocative to say it like that, but the point is that definitely the paris attack, just a few weeks before the first round of these elections that have seen the surge of the National Front, are well, these events are probably related, just like this surge is probably also related to the refugee crisis and because marine le pen, just like all of the populist leaders across europe, played a lot with the fear of the people following this refugee crisis. They pretended that this influx of refugees threatened our identity, that it would jeopardize our security. This is totally stupid. I mean, you know, in france, we will welcome this year between 20,000 to 26,000 refugees. We are a country of almost 70 million inhabitants. I was in sweden last week. They have 9 million inhabitants. They will welcome 190,000 refugees this year alone. I mean, and they are not afraid for their identity. They are not afraid for their security. They are just well, they are just concerned, well, with the accommodation of all these people and more much more logistical and practical concerns and issues. But they i mean, we could welcome even more refugees than we are welcoming. And actually, welcoming refugees is a beautiful way to fight the Islamic State. Amy because . Because this kills their narrative, because all their narrative is based on the fact that they are building the holy land for muslims in their caliphate, selfproclaimed caliphate on one way, and its made also on the islamophobia. I heard, you know, during my time in captivity once a discussion between frenchspeaking jihadis, so probably french and or maybe of mix of french and belgian. And that discussion was about islamophobia in europe. And obviously, islamophobia was one of the main reasons for which they decided to join the Islamic State, because many of the people, the Islamic State fighters, go there and join the group in an attempt to kind of restore the muslim pride. Amy did you feel the jihadis were steeped in islam . Very little. And by the way, most of the jihadis i know, either that i met during my time in captivity or that i followed on the social media or exchanged with on the social media afterwards, are just new muslims. I mean, they either converted, or they are kind of bornagain muslim. So to be provocative, a good muslim will not become a jihadi. I did not meet any jihadi who had a religious childhood. And religion is always kind of a vaccine can you say . Amy vaccine. And religion seems to be always almost a vaccine against terrorism because a good religious people will never become a terrorist. Amy your message to the republican president ial candidates now, donald trump and others, who are saying the refugee flow must be cut off . Well, they are playing the game of isis. They are just playing it. So amy because . Because they welcoming refugees is kind of a vaccine against terrorism. Amy and why so many jihadists come from france . Thats a difficult question to answer. Maybe because of the proximity of the of syria. Its not difficult to travel from france to syria, from western europe to syria. And also its probably a problem of sociology. Its probably also the result of social problems that we can have in france. Its also probably, to some extent, the result of bad policies with indeed, some , marginalization of muslims. And there have been likely some failures as well from the security services. Amy what would you say to young europeans who want to join, who what to become jihadists . This is a very important message. Basically, isis will recruit you telling you jihad is cool, because, yes, its cool, if you have no life, no girlfriend, no job, no money, nothing in your home country, and isis promises you, what, adventure, engagement, a girl, a car, a weapon, power, money, whatever. So they all play like jihad is cool. Isis is a is scam because isis does not really fight assad, does not protect the muslims in syria, but kills, to wide extent, a number of muslims in syria. Isis is a disaster for the Syrian People. So for those who want to join isis, i tell them, i understand the reason for your rage, because, yes, there are many reasons actually to be unhappy about both your life in the west or both the situation in syria and these civilians being massacred in huge numbers. But isis will just make you make this crisis bigger. Amy french journalist Nicolas Henin who was held hostage by isil for 10 months. That does it for our show. Democracy now is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. Email your comments to outreach democracynow. Org or mail them to democracy now p. O. Box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now ] val hello, im val zavala, and im here at the California Science Center in front of a magnificent piece of historythe Space Shuttle endeavor. Youre about to see a film that will lift your spirits and put you in awe of what we here in Southern California are capable of accomplishing when we work together. Youre about to see a documentary that captures the three nights and three days in l. A. When divisions disappeared. Why . Because all eyes were on this. It appeared first overhead. It was designed to soar in outer