Transcripts For LINKTV Democracy Now 20141219

New york becomes the first state in the nation to ban the controversial drilling practice due to health concerns. The potential risks are too great. In fact, they are not even fully known. Relying upon the limited data publicly available to answer the health risks would be negligent on my part. I have identified Significant Health risks in the current data. Could Push Administration that Bush Administration officials be tried . They are being accused of war crimes. A man was held in afghanistan as a at a secret cia prison. And the a blindfold door was closed. I was hit from all sides. I was humiliated. All of that and more coming up. Welcome to this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. Top u. S. General in charge of forces fighting the Islamic State in iraq and syria says it would take a minimum of three years to reach a turning point against the group. Speaking to reporters, the Lieutenant General james terry refuse to give a more specific timeline. Inthe first strikes were august. This is december. What is that . Four months. I think we have made significant progress in halting the offensive that i talked about, the ability for them to continue to expand in terms of terrain and geography out there. I think what we must do, especially inside of iraq, is to continue to build the capabilities and were talking a minimum of three years. The Obama Administration approved orders for hundreds of u. S. Troops to deploy to iraq as part of a mission to train and advise iraqi troops. Kurdish forces in iraq say they really they have recaptured territory, freeing hundreds of minorities that have been trapapped there. And calledve thousands of Kurdish Forces backed by u. S. Strikes. People killed by the Islamic State have been found in a mass grave. The londonopposition group syrian observatory for human rights say the dead are a member of a tribe that resisted the Islamic State. U. S. Military leaders say three top figures from the Islamic State have been killed by u. S. Airstrikes including a military chief. The news comes as the whistleblowing website wikileaks has published an internal cia document that reveals the agencies doubts about the effectiveness of such killings. The document from 2009 describes the positive and negative impacts of assassinating highend value targets. It warns that it could strengthen and armed groups bond with the population and radicalize an insurgent groups remaining leaders. Reportks notes after the was prepared, u. S. Drone killings rose to an alltime high. Nigeria, militants believed to be from boko haram have killed more than 30 people and about 200 in an attack on a northeastern village. The visit the village is near where boko haram seized more than 200 school schoolgirls. New york backed an attempt to from the Islamic State. The attorneyealed was negotiating for release using jihadi contacts, but the plan fell apart when jordan arrested a leading cleric who played a key role. Islamic state announced his execution last month. Pakistani jets and Ground Forces have killed 67 accused paigrants near the shower shawar and pakistan has revived the Death Penalty for terrorist related cases ending a sixyear moratorium. Thousands of convicted terrorists face execution, some of them within days. Authorities in new jersey say they hope the historic warming of ties between the United States and cuba will help them capture a former black panther. They view any changes as an opportunity to bring her back to the United States to finish her sentence for the murder of a state trooper in 1973. She was convicted of being of killing the officer after being pulled over. She has said she was shot by police with both arms in the air and again from the back. She was sentenced to life in andon but managed to escape flee to cuba where she has lived since 1984. Federal prosecutors are suing new york city over the treatment of teenagers jailed at rikers island. The move follows a report that found a deepseated history of violence. Earlier this week, mayor delivered a News Conference announcing the end of solitary confinement for 16yearolds and 17 euros, but federal Officials Say the reforms are not coming fast enough, noting that 18yearold inll face prolonged periods jail. The columbia columbia has cefused an agreement with far rebels, rejecting conditions including verification of the troops. The men from the other side are not angels. They are Difficult People that sent us a christmas gifts, a unilateral and indefinite ceasefire that we received is a good gift. What we receive is like a flower. When we open the gifts, there is a stem full of thorns. What were going to do is remove and will be left with the rose. Has declared temporary ceasefires around the holidays in the past. President obama announced a new measure that allows him to employ sanctions against venezuelan officials. Measures also signed a allowing new sanctions against russia, but says he does not plan to impose them yet. The Obama Administration has announced a new interpretation protectsl law that transgender workers from discrimination, expanding protections from the Civil Rights Act of 1964, allowing the Justice Department to sue states and local governments if they violate the rights of transgender employees. President obama signed a new measure blocking taxpayer funded Social Security payments to suspected nazi war criminals. Rapidlyure passed through Congress Following an investigation that found the United States has spent billions of dollars on benefits for suspected nazis and the payments continued under a legal loophole through which nazis were persuaded to leave the United States in return for keeping benefits. Obama administration has confirmed that will veto a u. N. Resolution to end the occupation of pakistan of palestinian territories by 2017. We have seen the draft. It is not something we would support, and we think others feel the same and are calling for further consultation. Palestinians understand that. You mightve seen president abbas speak to this earlier today. They said they support consultations and are not pushing for a vote on this now. Oil giant chevron has halted plans to drill for oil in the arctic. They said they would suspend Oil Exploration indefinitely citing uncertainty. Greenpeace says the move is a further proof that the technical challenges of drilling in icy waters where is still is all but bevitable pushes costs to too high in with volatile oil prices. The Newmont Mining corporation has been if he did in court as part of a yearlong battle to keep her land. They sought to evict her as part of a massive open pit gold mine process project. She and her relatives were sentenced to three years in prison after the company sees them of occupying land. Been filedawsuit has in an area made famous by the shooting of africanamerican teenager michael brown. The School District is accused of using a process that dilutes the africanamerican vote. While more than three quarters of the district students are africanamerican, there is just one africanamerican on the school board. They seek a change that would allow School Board Members to reside in the district. Two states have sued colorado over its legalization of marijuana. Earlier this year colorado became the first state to allow recreational marijuana. The brass and oklahoma claim the opening has led to an influx in neighboring states. In australia, eight children has been found dead and a woman injured in mass stabbings. The bodies were found in the home in menorah. The gap between the rich and poor has reached a new high. Gulf report finds the between rich families and low and middle income families is the largest it has been since data collection. While affluent families became 2010 22013,om middleincome family stay the same while poor families got poorer. Those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. Gonzalez. M juan before we begin the first story, you had the exclusive yearand interview with new york mayor deblasio. You got the exclusive interview for the new york daily news. Yes, i have a series of articles today, including my column, and basically, what the mayor told me in a halfhour wasrview earlier this week what he saw as the major accomplishments of his first year, being the achievement of the universal prek program that theolled out, beginning Affordable Housing program that he expects will produce 200,000 units of Affordable Housing and a series of reforms he has had on related to Police Community relations. Obviously, it am a seems a contradiction given the protests over the eric garner case, and the killings that have occurred over the last few months. I asked him about that. Look, webasically said had instituted a series of reforms and put in a new Inspector General for the police department. We sharply reduced stop and frisk arrests by the police. We had ordered a sharp reduction of marijuana from the city. Then, the garner case occurred. Saw a man of new york killed before their very eyes. Enormous pain among the residents of the city. Reformsves the including the massive retraining of all Police Officers aimed at reducing violent incidents in everyday interaction between the police and the citizens, he believes the longterm effects inthis will be the change the effects with the police department. It remains to be seen if that will happen. He remains optimistic despite what has happened. He also voiced support for the ability of people to continue to protest and express you for the next viewpoints on these issues. The other thing is he had some strong words on other issues, especially on Charter Schools. He blasted Charter School fores several times several times in the past year closing down their schools in the middle of school days and taking their students and teachers on protest. He said they were using children as political pawns, and he was willing to work with Charter School advocates, but they had to have rules like making sure they were educating the same number of english language learners and special at kids, and his main commitment was to , and publiction schools, where most of the children of the city are educated. Do you sense a changed man . Well, in my column, i read about the interview, but in my column the point that i try to raise his ive been covering urban politics now for over 35 years, and the real shock of deblasio is that this is a politician who has in his first year begun to implement many of the promises that he made and that is unusual in and of itself, and he has actually moved forward on his program and created quite a bit of a ruckus, andcially among the wealthy the government of new york city. He has not backed down on most of his major issues. I think that is a pretty unusual situation for a politician. I want to turn for a minute to a clip of mayor to glasgow talking about his son dante. The protests around the lack of Police Accountability in the eric garner case, new york city mayor deblasio say he and his wife fear for their teenage son. We have had to talk to dante for years about the dangers he may face. A good, young man, a lawabiding young man who would never think to do anything wrong, yet because of a history that hangs over us the dangers he may face, we have had to literally train him, as families have all over this city for decades in how to take special care in any encounter he has with Police Officers who are there to protect him, and that painful sense of contradiction that our young people see first that the police are here to protect us and we honor that, and at the same time there is a history we have to overcome because for so many of our young people there is a fear and for so many of our families there is a fear. Dante became famous to all new yorkers when he did the ad a young africanamerican with an afro is talking about mayor,ing deblasio for and a lot of people thought it was just a kid on the street they were using for a campaign ad, and in the end he said i support him, and it is not just because he is my dad. One the things i got the mayor to do an interview is make a new years resolution, because he has become infamous for his public events, and he told me he would make a new years resolution to be more on time in 2015. See if he holds to that. Cover all continue to person who has been called one of the most progressive mayors of a major american city. When we come back, a major decision by the governor of new york, banning fracking then, we will look more at the cia Intelligence Report and about a new complaint that could lead could it lead to a trial for Bush Administration officials . Stay with us. [music break] mirah, gone are the days. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. New york has become the first state in the nation with major new york has become the first state in the nation with major natural gas deposits to ban the oil and gas drilling process known as fracking, citing potential risks to Public Health. Fracking involves blasting sand, water and toxic chemicals deep into shale rock to release oil and gas, a process which can poison Water Supplies and pollute the air. Following a twoyear study, acting new York Health Commissioner Howard Zucker said fracking was too risky. The potential risks are too great. In fact, they are not even fully known. Relying upon a limited data that answerently available to the Public Health risks would be negligent on my part. Ive identified significant of ehealth risks in the current data, and until the significant Public Health risks in the current data, and until they are relative to longterm analysis, perspective analysis, showing that the risk for impact on Public Health are avoidable or sufficiently low, i cannot support highend volume hydraulic fracking in the great state of new york. The decision to ban fracking was announced by new york governor andrew cuomo. Debate,is an emotional and i think it is a very factual presentation and persuasive on the facts. Do i believe the facts will trump all emotions . No. I am sure the people who disagree with this will continue to disagree with us. Antifracking activists welcomed the ban with celebrations across the state. Environmentalists have waged a fierce campaign to ban fracking in the state. The actor and longtime antifracking activist mark ruffalo posted a short video online after the ban was announced. New york state has passed a moratorium on hydraulic fracking governor,ou to the and the beautiful, dedicated people and the Antifracking Movement we used science, and her guts, their brains come and the hearts to make this day a reality. Activists note that infrastructure related to fracking remains in place in upstate new york. On tuesday 41 people were arrested for blocking the gates of a gas Storage Facility as part of a campaign against the texasbased company crestwood midstream. The group, we are seneca lake, has seen more than 130 arrests in a series of actions against the companys plans to expand methane gas storage at a lake which provides Drinking Water to 100,000 people. Well, among those at the protest was biologist, activist and author Sandra Steingraber, who joins us now from ithaca, new york. She cofounded both new yorkers against fracking and concerned Health Professionals of new york. Her books include living downstream and her latest, raising elijah protecting children in an age of environmental crisis. Also joining us from Cornell University is Tony Ingraffea is Professor Emeritus and weiss president ial Teaching Fellow at Cornell University. Hes also the president of physicians, scientists, and engineers for healthy energy, inc. We welcome you both to democracy now this is a major decision. Sandra, can you talk about how this happened . The governor announced it, but what was the pressure taught brought on the governor . That is a tale that could be told as an opera. We had the good fortune of having a member moratorium in place through the previous governor and i will let tony telling details on how that came to be, but because we push the pause button, it gave those of us in the Scientific Community a chance to look at the data and the research and what it showed, and we started with only a handful of studies. There were only six studies since 2008 when we had the first moratorium declared. Now there are 414 studies and counting. So, it was like we had pieces of a jigsaw puzzle. Ofn you only had a couple pieces and you try to see what the picture is, it is hard to see. We saw troubling signs. It was like trying to read the tea leaves. As more data can man more studies were done, we knew what the data look like. Pieces ofo put more the jigsaw puzzle and now we have 414 pieces assembled. Even though there are still parts of the picture we cannot see very well, what is obvious to us now is that fracking is not only harmful to our water andly and poisons our era, is beginning to show signs and indicators of making people sick, but also the problems associated with fracking are inherent to the engineering itself and cannot be mitigated in any regulatory framework. We could not see any signs that fracking had been done in a within word way or rules that would govern the safety of it so that people would not be harmed. Together, as well as a bunch of other scientists, we did not just take that information to regulatory agencies, although we did that, too, because they seemed deaf to the science, we started early on taking it directly to the citizenry. The idea that science and politics existing two separate boxes, i do not think so. Objectivity is one thing. We are really objective as scientists. Science is not neutral. It is not a monk that should be sequestered away in a monastery. Science is like a gladiator that should be in the public arena. Years,t a couple of every friday night in a Church Basement somewhere, a rotary club, a public library, a Junior High School gymnasium giving powerpoint presentations with whatever data we had to boost citizens in small towns across the state, and that began then, the Citizens Organization local band movements springing up, and at some point in 2011, 2012, we had so many different antifracking groups that we united them under the umbrella my Organization New York is against fracking. Branch and science startedame time, tony physician science engineers and we began to look at the same data set from a statistical point of view. We did the qualitative analysis, and brought that out to the people in reports. We sent it to our department of health commissioners. First dr. Shaw, now dr. Zucker. We sent it to the governor. We were constantly bringing data forward to inform the political process. On that coalition that was a part of it, and musicians and politicians play their own role in captivating the citizenry, uniting us come and making us feel like we were on a winning team. Sandra steingraber on this issue of your outreach, i remember talking to governor and asking weeks ago specifically about the fracking issue, and it was clear he was feeling enormous pressure. Wherey, the primary vote ofchout won huge numbers votes in the region targeted for fracture fracking, he was aware there was a major population opposed to fracking and that had to have some kind of impact on this decision of his health commissioner. Local municipalities were banning fracking in their own area. There were protests constantly where the governor went. Meanwhile, the rest of the country was increasingly turning to fracking, so this is a really unusual situation what is have been here in new york state. I want to be really clear and thanked the governor for listening to the science. Part of the pressure he was feeling was the pressure of science because we equipped the citizenry to bring the science, as citizens, to the government. Governor cuomo in the end said he would let science make the decision, and he sure did. From my perspective as a scientist in the public interest, for someone who spent a lot of years in the Public Health, where i see decisionmakers not interested in turning away from the science, heres a governor that embraced it. Today,gratitude to you Governor Cuomo. Amen. I want to turn to a clip from gas land part two familyplains how her health deteriorated. My daughter her rashes all over her face. She has a nosebleed. Bob has a nosebleed. Burning eyes. , i had a rash that covered my scalp and when through my entire body. I started gasping for air. I started stuttering, stumbling. Hadace drew up like i bells palsy. Gas land a clip from , who iranby josh fox into in lima, peru, and he is interviewing people in the amazon as he links oil politics and gas Politics Around the world. Tonyted to turn to ingraffea, Professor Emeritus and weiss president ial Teaching Fellow at Cornell University. Hes also the president of physicians, scientists, and engineers for healthy energy, inc. Not a lot of people around the country are having this type of success on getting a ban on fracking. , talksor Tony Ingraffea about the science you presented and what you are most concerned about. This man is based on health concerns. Before i answer that question directly, i want to expand a little bit on what dr. Sandra steingraber said on how this process occurred. It is a perfect example of democracy now. In 2008 one other states open the barn doors and let dozens of operators in absent the science, new york had a special law on , and Environmental Quality review act, and it took the effort of individual citizen, dr. Stan scobee, to write a brief two governor paterson, pointing out the law if come and to be shale gas were to be explored in the United States. Governor paterson said let the law go forward and that led to an environmental review, and Environmental Impact statement. That led to hundreds of thousands of individual comments written by citizens all over unity new york state, that turned back two, actually, three versions of that Environmental Impact statement, and as of today, we still do not have a viable, valid impact statement for shale gas in the United States. That is one of the reasons for decision. Uomos and as dr. Sandra steingraber pointed out, hundreds of thousands of new yorkers say no, your science does not look good to us, the scientists were at 200 rom six papers and and thener 400 today, Governor Cuomo took over in 2010, realizing the science was not ready, and concluded that you do not establish an Important Energy policy absent good science, especially science having to do with human health, and he waited, wisely, for signs to catch up, and it almost has. The puzzle is a most complete. We now see what the impacts are, and dr. Zucker pointed them out earlier this week. Now, the signs that had to be done, to answer your question directly, was obvious what affects through air, water, ground movements, climate change, leaking wells, social logical effect on communities, economic effect on communities, ecological effects on communities what signs do we know when shell science do we know when shale gas comes to town . We knew very little in 2008. Some of the studies pointed out that shell gas, unlike previous gas developments is extremely intense. You have to have many, many wells per square mile. Wells perre square mile. The perspective was in upstate new york, it was going to be patterned, checkerboard every mile in one direction, every two miles in the other direction, as far as the eye could see, and that means we increase the risk of all of the bad things that could happen when you trip a hole in the ground and try to extract enormous amounts of natural gas. There can be leaks, failures, transportation problems, pipeline problems, compressor station problems, processor unit problems, storage problems. All of these lead to potential contamination of Water Supplies, underwater drinking Water Supplies for people in water wells, which is prevalent in upstate new york, and air contamination. We all dream breathe the same air we all downstream peer you cannot isolate shale gas from the people downstream. You cannot isolate shell gas from the people. The people of new york state, using the democratic powers, it informed the governors informed the governors of the United States that they wanted the signs to declare whether or if a policy allowing Shale Gas Development in new york was appropriate. 19. 1 Million People in the state. On their hand, the health. On the other hand, the potential wealth of a few hundred people and a few foreign corporations. I think the decision became very clear for Governor Cuomo this week. , whyofessor Tony Ingraffea do you think this kind of democratic process has not taken place in other parts of the United States, and of course, the shell gas industry has expanded worldwide now, seeking to drill all over the planet. It is an excellent question, and it goes back to one of the things that i said. It was a bit of luck and wisdom on the part of the former governor. Law on its books that other states do not. Its as if a new industrial process seeks to establish itself in the state of new york and it has not been here before, it has to show that it does not have deleterious effects on the environment and human health, and Shale Gas Development, despite what the president of the American Petroleum institute says, is a new process. Gas is not your grandmother and grandfathers oil and gas well in texas. It is a new process, orders of magnitude larger in scale the numbers of wells, the time it takes to drill wells, the amount of fracking fluid that is used to stimulate wells, the waste produced, the ancillary infrastructure, pipelines, compressor stations, processing units all of that makes it different. Why is it that colorado or texas, or oklahoma, or arkansas, or illinois, north carolina, maryland, which have negligible shale Gas Resources why are they Going Forward . Reasons they did not have the law on the books, or it was not enforced, and two, they did not have the time to generate the citizen impact and input that we luckily had because of that wise decision in 2008 in new york state, but those states will catch up. New york state this is a landmark, the wellspring, where it all begins for other states to say yeah, it looks like it is going to happen in places like illinois, north carolina, maryland, but it has not happened yet, and we can still stop it and places like colorado, texas, oklahoma, arkansas, where the deleterious effects we have discussed and we have already discussed here, are becoming more and more apparent every day. The citizens are getting involved, getting motivated, and what we did in new york state will be a tremendous impetus for them. Would be think about the plummeting price of oil on the world market . Is this having some kind of an impact on the fullcourt press that the oil and gas industry has been doing now for several years in terms of shale extraction . Absolutely. We talking about a very complex, global scale industry. What does happen in washington does russia does affect what happens in pennsylvania. The dropping prices for hydrocarbons, oil and natural gas, are having huge effect on the industry itself. We are seeing a pullback in the number of wells being drilled. We see a pullback in the capital flowing from wall street into the coffers of the oil and gas industry so they can conjure all their wells and build infrastructure. More importantly, i think it to the promise, the empty promise, that the industry gave to most other states and try to give to new york state, which is they will be goldpaved streets for you, everybody is going to get rich. It does not work that way in extractive industries. It is boom bust, and guess what . It is now bust. It did not take long. The industry oversupplied too companiess trying to make a quick profit. They have driven down prices because of oversupply. They have made the attempt to address that problem by facilities onuild all coast of the United States and canada to try to get American Made natural gas exploited into exported into foreign markets. People in other states are beginning to realize it was a charade, a big lie, corporate profitmaking underneath the american flag. Before we wrap up is it our gas and our oil . No. Ali are we really decreasing the cost of energy for americans . No. For gasoline in your car right now, sure, but what we are doing is causing a decrease in the most important secondary aspect of this whole effort, which is to rapidly increase Renewable Energy supplies, so, i am trying to point out the complex issue involving geopolitics, the fight between Traditional Energy sources, Renewable Energy sources, different state approaches, the common, pocketbook, how much they are paying for energy now for the future, and will they go out and buy a previous tomorrow or a hummer . Thank you both for being with dr. Tony ingraffea is Professor Emeritus at Cornell University and president of physicians, scientists, and engineers for healthy energy, inc. , and Sandra Steingraber is an activist, biologist and author. She cofounded both new yorkers against fracking and concerned Health Professionals of new york. She has been named woman of the year among many other things. I andh the quote of with the quote of rebeccas home at who says the governor did it pushed hard. Look at the weathervanes, what respect the wind. Ben we come back, we will joined by two leading attorneys to talk about the cia Intelligence Report and the latest complaint filed in europe to try to try Bush Administration officials for torture. They with us. [music break] to the unknown man, Evangelos Odysseas Papathanassiou a. K. A. Vangelis. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. A Human Rights Group in berlin, germany, has filed a criminal complaint against the architects of the george w. Bush administrations torture program. The European Center for constitutional and human rights has accused former Bush Administration officials, including cia director george tenet and defense secretary Donald Rumsfeld, of war crimes, and called for an immediate investigation by a german prosecutor. The move follows the release of a Senate Report on cia torture which includes the case of a german citizen, khalid elmasri, who was captured by cia agents in 2004 due to mistaken identity and tortured at a secret prison in afghanistan. So far no one involved in the cia torture program has been charged with a crime except the whistleblower john kiriakou, who exposed it. In a statement earlier this week, wolfgang kaleck, general secretary of the group which said, by investigating members of the Bush Administration, germany can help to ensure that those responsible for abduction, abuse and illegal detention do not go unpunished. President obama is standing by his longstanding proposal that refusal to investigate officials on the torture program, calling on the nation not to refight old arguments. Has the Obama Administration rejects a criminal probe of bushera torture, former Vice President dick cheney said he would do it all again. With respect of defining that is torture, i come back to the proposition that torture is what the al qaeda terrorists did to 3000 americans on 9 11. It worked. It worked now for 13 years, we have avoided another mass casualty attack and we did capture bin laden, a lot of the senior guys that were responsible for that attack. I would do it again in a minute. Claim that he would do it again highlights the key question are top officials above the law and will the impunity of today lead to more abuses in the future. The questions span a large chain of command from officials that kick started the torture program after 9 11, to the lawyers and the Justice Department who drafted the members. To the cia officials that may the public, and to psychologists who advised the techniques used on prisoners. To talk more about this, we are joined by two gas. Michael ratner is president emeritus of the center for Constitutional Rights and chairman of the European Center for constitutional and human rights. Ccr has been working with ecchr the European Center to file criminal complaints against Bush Administration officials complicit in the use of torture. He is also the author of the trial of Donald Rumsfeld a prosecution by book. Martin garbus is also back with us. One of leading attorneys in the the u. S. Time magazine calls him one of the best trial lawyers in the country, while the National Law Journal has named him one of the countrys top ten litigators. Welcome back to democracy now yesterday we were talking about cuba. Today were talking about all of the news coming out. George w. Bush, Donald Rumsfeld, dick cheney, put on trial for torture . They should be. The bad thing is they have the defense of the lawyers opinions given to them, the opinions of gonzales, john yoo, and unless you can hears those decisions, you have a tough time. A prosecution that ends badly might not be one that we sought, whenhat should happen is the election happen to the court of appeals and nominated and voted on, and john yoo currently teachesat john yoo at berkeley. At the time he was appointed, there was a massive them nation against massive demonstration against him. You did not yet have the information. Senator leahy has said if you had all of this information, jay bybee would not have passed, and john yoo would not have been appointed. They should be suspended and disbarred. Prosecution,ve a you have established the faulting is, the horrific faulting us of the legal opinion. It seems to me, at least in this country, before you have a prosecution, there has to be an invalidation. He is a defense lawyer, but i strongly disagree that bush and cheney would have a defense. These memos appeared independently from the Justice Department. These memos were facilitated by the very people, cheney, etc. , we believe should be indicted. It was part of a conspiracy to get away with torture. That is not the subject now. That is clear to me. Secondly, whenever we think of the memos, they are useless in europe. Europe does not accept the golden shield of a legal defense. Either it is torture or it is not. You did it, or you did not. That is one reason we are going to europe to bring these cases. The clip that we played a president obama saying it is no use fighting old arguments you are, in essence, refighting arguments in europe the United States refuses to deal with. Of course, cheney shows us exactly why you have to prosecute torture, because if you do not prosecuted, the next guy down the line will torture again, and that is what cheney said i will do it again. We tried this in 2004. Hugh covered it here. We tried in 2006. You covered it here. Now because of the Senate Report, we have a much stronger case in germany than we have ever had, particularly with regard to a german citizen taken on the streets of macedonia, sent to a salt pit. Tell us that story. The remarkable story. He was on a bus. He was on a bus to take a vacation in macedonia. He gets pulled off by agents of our government, gets taken off of the us, get sodomized, essentially, with a drug, gets taken from there to the salt pinion salt pit in afghanistan, a black torture center known as callable in cobalt in your report. Everyone knows it is a mistake. There was another guy with a similar name. It was not this guy. Even after they are told it is a mistake, they lead him to be tortured. They dropped him off Condoleezza Rice was involved, right . They held him for the because they realized they were torturing the wrong man. Held liable for allowing the kidnapping on the streets, and they found that what happened to them on the streets happen to him on the streets of macedonia was torture. I want to go to him in his own words describing his time inside a secret cia prison in afghanistan. I was the only one in this prison in kabul who is actually treated slightly better than the other inmates. [speaking foreign language] but it was known among the prisoners that other prisoners were constantly tortured with blasts of loud music. Language] g foreign they were, up to five days, from the ceiling, completely naked, in ice cold conditions. Language] g foreign the man from tanzania, who i mentioned before, had his arms broken in three places. Trauma to the head, and his teeth had been damaged. Language] g foreign up in aalso locked him suitcase for long period of time, a followsmelling followsmelling suitcase. Forms ofperience torture where their heads were being pushed down and held under water. Yes, and they knew he was innocent. There was a woman who has been , and she apparently was one of the people who insisted, even though there were people in the agency saying we got the wrong guy, who insisted on having him picked up and taken there. She is also one of the models for the woman in zero dark 30 and an article was recently written about her called the queen of torture, or Something Like that. She is one of the defendants in the lawsuit in germany, and let me just say, germany, whatever happened before between the nsa spying on germany, and the fact that their citizen has been revealed to be kept in a tortured place when it is known he was innocent, i am sure they will take this seriously, and i spoke to scott horton, a columnist for harpers, and a expert on national security, and of this me that because report, 100 cia agents have been given advice that they should not leave the United States. What we will win in the end, i cannot say, but that is a major victory. A major victory would be to prosecute the lawyers themselves because otherwise in the future you will have activities like cheney or whomever, people in the cia and nsa relying on faulty legal opinions. Has to be toty stop future lawyers from doing the same thing that was done here. Your point is these memos they constantly knew they were violating torture statutes. Martin is right that they were doing it under the chain of command, cheney and other people, but i think that is difficult to prove and you should go after the lawyers now. Of course, since that time, and jay is a professor, bybee was elevated to a judgeship. I want to switch years and go back to cuba. Massive news this week about the beginning of normalization of relations, and i wanted to ask with blackhe issues assat shakur. Shakur was convicted in the may 2nd, 1973, killing of a new jersey state trooper during a shootout that left one of her fellow activists dead. She has shed she was shot twice by police during the incident. In 1998 democracy now aired her reading an open letter to Pope John Paul ii during his trip to cuba. She wrote the message after new jersey state troopers sent the pope a letter asking him to call for her extradition. I later joined the black panther party, an organization that was targeted by the tell program, a program set up by the federal bureau of investigation to eliminate all political opposition to the u. S. To destroys policies the black Liberation Movement in the United States, to discredit activists, and to eliminate potential leaders. Assata shakur reading an open p what will happen . She will not be returned. Was she came there, she told she could stay indefinitely. I had a meeting about a month ago, and they were clear that they would oppose any attempts on the United States to succeed shakuruld get assata back. A black panther has been released ordered released in new jersey. Appealed and he remains imprisoned. New jersey has been crazy. Think about what has happened, and i ask, what you think about ta. T happened to assa i think there is a 100 chance she will not be forced out of cuba, but new jersey has raised the reward to 10 million. The fbi put her on the most wanted list. They are after her, but i am confident that the cubans will not have are actuated to the United States. What did you say . Asked men that menendez is indicted, we hope it we will link to our pieces. That does it for our show. Michael ratner, thank you for joining us, as well as martin garbus, thank you for being with us. Democracy now is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. Email your comments to outreach democracynow. Org or mail them to democracy now p. O. Box 693 new york, new york 10013. This is a production of China Central television america. Peace. Nonviolence. Reconciliation. Idealistic notions or a reality that may just be within our grasp if we approach conflict with a new perspective . Im mike walter in los angeles. Lets take it full frame