Transcripts For LINKTV Democracy Now 20140514

And as the British Spy Agency gchq is sued for turning mobile phones into surveillance devices, Glenn Greenwald talks about the Pulitzer Prize and the corporate medias response to his reporting. We knew once we started publishing that one or two stories, but dozens of stories, and we were going to continue to publish until we were done, which is still our plan and what we intend to do, that not just the government, but even fellow journalists would start to look at what we were doing with increasing levels of hostility and to start to say, this doesnt actually seem like journalism anymore. Because it is not the kind of journalism that they do. It doesnt abide by these unspoken rules that are designed to protect the government. Part two of our special with Glenn Greenwald on, no place to hide Edward Snowden, the nsa and the u. S. Surveillance state. All of that and more coming up. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. The Nigerian Government has reversed its rejection of talks with boko haram militants on freeing the nearly 300 kidnapped schoolgirls held captive for over a month. On tuesday, Nigerian Special duties minister Taminu Turaki said he is open to negotiations, including over the girls face. The Nigerian Government had previously dismissed in the parent offer from the boko haram to free the girls in return for the governments release of the groups jailed members. In washington, White House Press secretary jay carney confirmed u. S. Forces are flying surveillance planes over nigeria in a bid to find the girls. Jay carney also voiced opposition to ransom talks with the boko haram, but said the u. S. Or follow nigerias lead. We are focused on working with the Nigerian Government to locate and bring home those girls, that includes a team of individuals thahat i itemized yesterday and also includes manned reconnaissance flights that i can confirm we are in cooperation with the Nigerian Government. When it comes to the approach to boko haram in this case, nigeria has the lead and we play a supporting role. It is the policy of the United States to deny kidnappers the benefits of their criminal acts him and that includes ransoms or concessions. City monday, protests can continue for the girls return in the city of lagos. Womens rights activist joei odumakin vowed to march on the town where the girls were seized if theyre not returned safely. That is the essence of these protests. We are moving to the east on wednesday. [indiscernible] at the end of the nationwide protest, if nothing is done we are ready. At least 205 people have died in an explosion at a coal mine in western turkey. Hundreds of workers are believed to remain trapped inside and the death toll could rise. It is believed to be the worst ever industrial accident in turkish history. The International Labor Organization Says turkey is the worlds third highest rate of worker deaths. The United Nations envoy for syria has resigned after two years of failed efforts to to the country civil war. Lakhdar brahimi will formally step down at the end of the month. Brahimi offered parting words on tuesday in his final address to the security council. Im sure the crisis will end. The question is only, and everybody who has a responsibility and an influence the situation has to remember that the question is, how many more deaths . How much more destruction is there going to be before syria hadmes again the syria we known. The new syria that would be different from the past, that it will be the syria we have loved and admired for many, many years. The syrian conflict has killed over 150,000 people and left millions displaced. Lakhdar brahimi had repeatedly threatened to step down as talks between the alassad regime and opposition rebels failed to get off the ground. On tuesday, secretarygeneral ban kimoon paid tributes to brahimis efforts. He has long been recognized as one of the worlds most brilliant diplomats as well as outstanding proponent of the principles of the charter of the United Nations. The objective to which he applied his extraordinary , is as has proven elusive tragedy for the syrian people. That his efforts have not received effective support from the United Nations body that is charged with upholding peace and security of from countries with influence on the syrian situation, is a failure of all of us. A u. S. Federal judge has overturned idahos ban on samesex marriage the latest in a series of Marriage Equality rulings sweeping the country. Dale ruled the idaho been violated couples equal protection rights under the 14th amendment. The decision comes days after her Marriage Equality ban was struck down in arkansas, prompting hundreds of weddings by samesex couples. A federal Appeals Court has stayed the execution of a texas death row prisoner who was said to die tuesday night. The u. S. Court of appeals for the fifth circuit ruled Robert James Campbell is protected from the Death Penalty because he is mentally disabled. Campbells execution was said to be the nations first since the botched killing of an oklahoma death row prisoner last month. The fence attorneys had initially tried to stay the execution over the secrecy of the legal injection drug. The Missouri State senate has passed a bill to extend the waiting. For an abortion from 24 to 72 hours. The bill passed early Tuesday Morning despite a filibuster by state senator scott sifton. Protesters have gathered outside the Missouri State capitol to launch a womens filibuster against the bill, which they call a threat to womens health. They have stayed overnight for tonight and are vowing to remain for 72 hours. The bill now heads back to the missouri house, which is already passed a similar bill. If enacted, missouri would become the third state with a threeday waiting period. Democratic commerce member john conyers of michigan could be left off his districts upcoming primary after failing to gather enough signatures. The Wayne County Elections clerk says conyers is over 400 names shy of the 1000 needed to get on the august ballot. Petition fall short because he did not collect enough signatures from registered voters. The aclu has filed a lawsuit challenging a requirement will stop if the ruling stands, conyers could run as a write in candidate. First elected in 1964, commerce and conyers is the house a second longest serving incumbent. In new jersey, councilmember ras baraka has been elected mayor of newark. He is the son of the legendary africanamerican poet who died earlier this year. Ras baraka addressed a victory rally of supporters tuesday night. We need to bring the city we chooseher again hope, not fear. We choose transformation, not cynicism. Day that we bring every ward together, that we create neighborhoods in one city. Follows thea twoterm mayor cory booker, who stepped down last year after becoming a u. S. Senator. The International Criminal court has reopened a preliminary investigation of war crimes allegations against british troops in iraq will stop to european human Rights Groups have filed complaints on behalf of dozens of iraq is alleging 60 unlawful killings and over 170 cases of torture and abuse. Is the First Western country to face our preliminary probe at the hague. The u. S. Is immune scrutiny because its not a court member. The National Football leagues first openly gay player was formally introduced on tuesday, days after making history with his selection in the leagues collegiate draft. Michael sam was drafted by the st. Louis rams months after coming out publicly. The News Conference with his new team, sam was asked offer advice in light of the obstacles he faced to coming out. Michael, what is the message you have for anyone that might be dealing with their own personal struggle, whatever it may be him and are looking for the courage and inspiration to just face it headon . Its ok to be who you are, whether youre gay, straight, black or white. It is ok to be comfortable in your own skin. The peace activist and radio commentator acie byrd has died at the age of 77, following a battle with cancer. Acie byrd was among an estimated quarter of a million u. S. Military personnel exposed to radiation from u. S. Nuclear test that took place from 1945 to 1962. He was exposed to Hydrogen Bomb test in the mid1950s in the pacific. He became a leading advocate for fellow atomic veterans, calling for Health Care Compensation and a conference of test ban treaty. A 1977, he was one of the founding members of the sulekha dation wpfw in washington, fee where the local and National Commentator and board member for many years. And the swedish filmmaker Malik Bendjelloul has died at the age of 36. You won the best documentary Academy Award blaster for his debut film searching for sugar man about u. S. Musician rodriguez. And those are some of the headlines. This is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. On tuesday, the Group Privacy international sued britains Intelligence Agency for illegally developing spy programs that remotely hijack computers and mobile devices. According to the legal complaint, the british gchq and the National Security agency can now take over a device is microphone and record conversations occurring near the device, take over a devices webcam and snap photographs, retrieve any content from a phone, log keystrokes entered into a device, and identify the geographic whereabouts of the user. Eric king of Privacy International said Privacy Internationals legal complaint is based on documents leaked by former National Security Agency Contractor Edward Snowden and first reported on by Pulitzer Prize winning reporter Glenn Greenwald and the intercept. Today, we will spend the rest of the hour with part two of our interview with Glenn Greenwald, author of the new book, no place to hide Edward Snowden, the nsa and the u. S. Surveillance state. Glenn greenwald and filmmaker Laura Poitras were the journalists who first met snowden in hong kong last june. When greenwald came by democracy now studios on monday. I asked him to talk about how Edward Snowden first reached out to him. He first tried to contact me or did contact me back in december 2012 when he sent me an anonymous email using the name of a Roman Emperor who had famously been recruited to become essentially the emperor of rome to vanquish a foreign enemy and voluntarily gave up hour after he succeeded and was at the height of his power and instead of going back to my farm and became the symbol of civic virtue, someone who uses power for the collective good another own personal aggrandizement. The problem was, he was afraid for august reasons reasons that are now obvious to tommy much about who he was or what he had. All he would say was, i have a story for you but as you know, we get contacted every day by people claiming to have stories, often which were most of the time turn out to be nothing. So i did not prioritize it. He wanted me to install groups and so we could talk securely. I never did. He tried for seven weeks and finally gave up and went to Laura Poitras, the awardwinning documentarian, my friend. She had encryption and we were able to start speaking that way about the story he had. Talk about what eventually brought you and snowden the hong kong. When i first talked to snowden, which was in the early he was a huge mystery both to myself and laura. All we know is he was claiming he had access to incredibly incriminating documents at the highest levels of the National Security state that we did not know who he was or how he got those documents or even what those documents were. From the beginning, he was insistent that we travel the hong kong in order to meet. The idea he was in hong kong was quite as defined both to myself and laura, and raise a lot of flags of suspicion because we obviously assumed when it was time to meet him, we would be traveling to Northern Virginia or southern maryland, which is where most of the people who work at these agencies reside. It was difficult understand why someone with access to these kinds of documents would be in hong kong, ball places. He was a little elected to talk about that. I did not push much to get information because i did not want to make him feel like he was being interrogated, especially early on, before trusted been created. I said i was willing to come to hong kong given the magnitude of what he was saying. But before i get on the plane and travel across the world, i would like to say some sample of the material you are prepared to turn over. He said, that is completely understandable. He sent to me two encryption programs that he walked me through step by step to install, roughly two dozen topsecret nsa documents that i received sitting at my home in rio de janeiro. It was the first time any documents had leaked from this most secretive agency and u. S. Government ever. The documents were explosive. Among them was the documents detailing the Prism Program in which the nsa had obtained access directly to the servers of the Largest Internet Company so they could get the emails and chats they wanted directly. So when i got that first set of documents, i knew that this story was very serious. The source was at least somewhat reliable, it wasnt just a crank or crazy person. The very next day, i got on the plane and flew to new york to meet with my editors at the guardian and met lauren there. The day after that, we flew the 16 hours to hong kong to meet Edward Snowden. Though you were a columnist for the guardian newspaper, they were concerned, they wanted usty olderir tr generation reporters to be there, too. One of the reasons why wrote the book is because theres a of informedened, that is by hindsight. Hindsight often distorts the situation more than it clarifies. Faced veryges we early on legally and logistically and politically were quite profound. We had no idea who it was we were going to meet. We had no idea what he had done to get these documents were with the legal ramifications were or what the risks were going to hong kong. In fact, Washington Post actually said they were unwilling to send any of their journalist to hong kong because they were so worried about the risks. The guardian understandably was worried about that and i had only worked for them for eight months. My deal was, i write whatever i want and i post it directly to the internet and you dont interfere in any way. So i had barely worked with any guardian editors at all, let alone on a story this size. There was a lot of trust issues. I did not fully trust them and how they would handle a story like this and they did not fully trust me that they could essentially stake to 190year history of the newspaper on a story based on what i was telling them, given we had no relationship. At the last moment, they insisted this trusted reporter Ewen Mccaskill travel with us. It was a lastminute request. It bothered laura and me and we were worried about what it would mean for the source, but he accepted it. You write laura was particularly concerned if this source who you are going to meet in hong kong were at the airport secretly sort of well, checking you out as you can in, and saw someone else with you, he might just disappear, back out . That was a big concern. We knew this person was extremely wellprepared. Everything he proposed to us had been thought through in a very detailed and systematic way. Incredibly planned. The fact there was this major lastminute change, which wasnt but also thisura completely unknown person from the guardian who got thrown onto the end, was a major concern. You dontian said have to let him be the source until you are ready, we just want him to go to be around and just sort of help and be our eyes and ears. Essentially agree, because i thought it was a reasonable request and i felt we could manage it, but it was a challenge we faced right from the beginning and doing the story with so many unknowns. Tell us about the moment, Glenn Greenwald, you laid eyes on Edward Snowden. How did you agree to meet and do the interview . The meeting itself was incredibly intricate. It was right out of us by movie, essentially. He was staying at a large hotel in hong kong, which itself was a little bit confusing. I mean, why would somebody who makes off with this amount of documents you picture them in of an apartment that is very obscure so they can be found and he was staying at this highrise luxury Apartment Hotel in the middle of the most commercial district in hong kong, it itself was surprising. He had selected a place in the very this is illustrative of how he thinks. In his words, it was not so trafficked that we will cause a scene by meaning there and be noticed, but not so obscure it would be conspicuous is suddenly people were there. He found what he thought was a perfectly calibrated place, which was in this bizarre room that had an enormous green alligator on the floor. Our instructions were to go to this room at two different times, 10 00 and 10 20, and to sit on the sofa in front of the green alligator and wait for him. And if he did not show up on the first occasion, we were to leave and come back in 20 minutes. The second time he asked us to speak code questions to Hotel Employees, to ask, how is the food here . When does the restaurant open . That would signal things had gone well on the trip over and we had not been followed. We sat down as instructed at 10 00 when he did not show up, we left and then came back at 10 20. The question was, how will we know it is you . We dont know what you look like, your race or even your gender. You said, i will be holding in my left hand a rubiks cube. So he wont in and was holding the rubiks cube, came over and introduced himself, and that was how we met him. I want to go to a part of that first video that appeared a few days later. The video, when the world first saw Edward Snowden, filmed by Laura Poitras in hong kong. The greatest fear i have regarding the outcome for america is that nothing will change. People will see in the media all of these disclosures and know the links the government is going to grant themselves powers unilaterally to create greater control over American Society and global society, but they wont be willing to take the risks necessary to stand up and fight to change things, to force their representatives to actually take a stand in their interest. , talk about, Glenn Greenwald that first video that the world came to know so well, how long the interview was, what shock to most by it, how long it took you to put online, how the guardian responded to this video. The most extraordinary thing and most unusual and difficult from the beginning was that Edward Snowden from the First Time Ever spoke with him told me he was absolutely determined to identify himself as the source of these disclosures. He did not want to hide or remain anonymous. He felt a moral responsibility to come out and explain why he did what he did to the world. Extremely unusual. If a source comes to you with information i can send them to prison for the rest of their lives, they typically want you to even go to jail if it means you have to to protect their identity. He wanted the opposite. He wanted to come forward and explain to the world why he did what he did. He didnt want to be deep throat. He wanted to be Edward Snowden saying, i took responsibility for the choice i made and i want to explain why i made it. From the beginning, i felt this deep responsibility to make certain that he would have the ability to send the message he wanted to send, to speak to the world and be heard in the right light, in the right way, so the perception of him would come directly from him. And the way that laura decided this would be best done would be to make a video so he could literally speak in his own words, not speak through me or through any newspaper or other media is to tuition. The first thing that laura did was on the wrist Edward Snowden, i interrogated him literally for six straight hours so i could convince myself that he was an authentic and reliable person and what he was telling us was true. She said it was so fragmented and so detailed and so she did not feel she could really put together a video that would really convey who he was. Lets talk about who you are, Glenn Greenwald, what it means to be questioned by you. You are a constitutional lawyer by training. Right. I spent many years before being a journalist, not just as a lawyer, but a litigator. So many times i would sit down at a table like this with witnesses, probably a little closer than you are sitting, and for days at a time, bombard them with questions. All must nobody can withstand that level of scrutiny if they are lying. The lies will always come out. Confident that if you were lying, that would come out. It would be apparent. After sixstioning hours, i felt extremely confident he was telling the truth about everything. There was no hesitation or inconsistencies. He was to all of it. We did not let him go to the bathroom or igor even have a drink of water. That would not make a very effective video because it was too fragmented and to detailed. So laura rode up i think it was 20 questions and i added maybe five other ones. It was on the third or fourth day in hong kong we said, lets to this video the right way so he is answering the questions that the world is going to want to know. At any point, were you afraid Edward Snowden would disappear . We were constantly afraid to disappear, not on his own volition, but because there was going to be a knock at the door with american agents or chinese agents or hong kong local authorities would find out what he was doing and come and taken away. That threat, that fear was constantly hovering over every thing we did. ,art of why he chose hong kong ultimately, i found out, he felt would afford him the protection from u. S. Government to do the work you wanted to do with the journalist he had selected. That is always a serious concern. Talk about what happened on the fifth day, what Edward Snowden said about some security having been breached having to do with his home in hawaii. None of us had any idea what the u. S. Government knew about what he had done. So we were operating completely in the dark. I got there on the fifth day we were in hong kong and he said, i found out some alarming news. It was the news ive been waiting for, i thought, which was he said he had discovered nsa officials, Human Resources person in it an internal u. S. Police officer which i did not know existed they have been dispatched to his home in hawaii, which he shared with his longtime girlfriend, to essentially say, where is Edward Snowden and why hasnt he been at work and do you know what it is he is doing and do you mind if we search . Snowden was certain this meant the government had detected he was the source of these disclosures. I argued the opposite, that i did not think that within just Human Resources person and a Police Officer to his home if they really thought he was the source of this massive leak. It would probably send fbi and swat teams and who knows what else. But neither of us was certain. The possibility he had been detected in some way or was about to be was very real. Need to geted the this video ready so we could have him appear before the world on his own bullish and. Pulitzer prizewinning journalist Glenn Greenwald, his new book released tuesday is, no place to hide Edward Snowden, the nsa and the u. S. Surveillance state. When we come back, we will talk with glenn about how Edward Snowden managed to go underground in hong kong after meeting with glenn and Laura Poitras. We will be back in a moment. [music break] on our website, we have a new video timeline of democracy now reports on Edward Snowden and features all of our interviews with Glenn Greenwald since he filed the first report last june based on snowdens leaked nsa documents. You can see the timeline at democracynow. Org. We continue with Glenn Greenwald. Author of the new book, no place to hide Edward Snowden, the nsa and the u. S. Surveillance state. Asked Glenn Greenwald to talk about how Edward Snowden managed a secretly leave his hotel room in hong kong once it became known he was the source of the nsa leaks. Spy craft that permeated everything we did in hong kong extended right up until the time he had to escape. What had happened was, it was really amazing, we spent the whole week reporting from hong kong on the stories and not a single media outlet ever wondered why we were in hong kong. The minute we revealed his identity, they put it together and realized Edward Snowden must be in hong kong because with interviewed him life from there. Theyll dissented on the city and were desperately searching for where he was. They found my hotel by bribing a variety of Hotel Employees they were looking everywhere for him. We knew if they found him before he was able to leave, he would never be able to leave because they would follow him incessantly. We arranged for some lawyers who we are able to find in hong kong were wellconnected to rush over to the hotel and literally take him out of his hotel room and put them into hiding 15 or 20 minutes before the media found him. On that day, we were really worried he would not be of the get out of his hotel that the media swarm with have found him. He talked about how he could change his appearance by shaving his head or do things to his face to essentially make himself unrecognizable and be able to leave the hotel. It was that level of spy craft that these events took place. So where did he go . We put him in the hands of these lawyers who specialize in human rights laws and asylum claim and they put him in various safe houses throughout hong kong will stop people who were willing to shield him on the premise that he was going to ask the world for asylum protection from the United States government. Then explain what his thinking was and youre thinking about hong kong, about china, about what his chances were of one of these governments cooperating with the u. S. Government in arresting him and then extraditing him. Theseple second guess all things that happened, why he ended up in hong kong, why didnt he go to eyes land or but ecuador to begin with . Tore are really good answers all of that but the best answer is, he himself said this all the time whenever i would ask about alternatives was, he was a, look, all my options are bad options. If youre going to be a , youre not going to have very good options. They will know who you are and where you are and theyre going to want to find you, and it doesnt matter where you go. As it turns out, i think he planned really well. Hong kong ended up being a great choice. They did not get him in hong kong. He tried to get into the latin american and he was forced the u. S. Government to stay in russia, but that also turn out to be fortuitous because he is further outside the grasp of the u. S. A year later than he has ever been. Explain what happened there. A lot of people forget why he ended up in russia, that he traveled to russia because he wanted to sell the russian secrets or that he sold the chinese secrets. Explain how he ends up being stuck in russia. First of all, it is such a potent sign of how disingenuous our political discourse can be. When he was in hong kong for those first 2. 5 weeks, all sorts of people were asserting, without evidence, that he must be a chinese spy. This is clearly a chinese espionage operation. And the minute he moved from hong kong to moscow, those same people switched seamlessly from he is a chinese spy to a russian spy or ignore the fact they were claiming something quite different just a moment ago. Any whistleblower in the u. S. Who is affected will be aggressively demonized. But what people have blocked out and with the media has successfully obscured because it is the media that typically tries to attack snowden by saying he is in this oppressive tyranny and i hypocritical. He went to moscow with the attention of flying onto havana, which had promised him safe passage, that the nika then fly to the northern part of latin america where he would request asylum. It was only because on the flight from hong kong to moscow when it u. S. Government with no due process unilaterally revoked his passport, declared invalid, and then bullied and threatened the cubans out of rescinding offer a safe passage, today force them to remain in russia. He stayed there for five weeks. As he said, if i were a russian spy, do you think i would have been given that welcome of being forced to stay in the russian airport for five weeks . During this time, the u. S. Government showed how radical it would be. There was a plane they thought that he was on that was actually the bolivian president evo morales. Despite no evidence was on the plane, they forced it down by preventing overflight rights. To land ined austria. The fact they were going to force down the plane of a president of a sovereign country based on a whim showed they were physically going to force him to stay in russia, not let him leave. It was only then to try to use that than against them and say, he is in russia and that undermines his credibility as a messenger, is the ultimate in irony. Talk about julian assange. Another person who is the target of the u. S. , not clear if yes then secretly indicted by the u. S. Here he is in the Ecuadorian Embassy in london, the role he played in Edward Snowdens escape from hong kong. , as anleaks organization, deserves immense credit for what they did to protect Edward Snowden. It was daring and innovative and heroic. Obviously, julian himself is physically incapable of leaving the embassy in london. But what they did was, they dispatched somebody who has been legal aid for many years and closely associated with joining assange, a british woman named Sarah Harrison who went to hong kong and met Edward Snowden and arranged his passage out of hong kong and to russia, then stayed with him for five weeks in the airport and three more months once he got asylum just to be a witness to the world he was being treated fairly. Wikileaks provided support for him and infrastructure, legal advice. Essentially the reason why Edward Snowden is able to participate in the debate he galvanized and because of the bravery of wikileaks and Sarah Harrison. Sarah harrison goes on well, she cant go home to london. Right. She is concerned, with very good reason, that if she went to london, at the very least she would be detained under the same Terrorism Law they used to detain and interrogate my partner david maranda, which would entitle them to take all question her. And and if she did not answer every single question truthfully and honestly in their eyes, they have a right to a restaurant prosecutor just for that. She is essentially exiled from her country as a result of helping Edward Snowden be protected from persecution from his own government. Sarah harrison now lives in germany. Talk about how Edward Snowden got asylum in russia. It is really a fascinating and i think still kind of obscure series of events. The context word is that even though the cold war is over, the stillan political scene sees russia as the enemy. I think it is baked into the dna of americans. The russian and american political processes hate each other. For years, thereve been numerous russian criminals that have sought refuge in the u. S. Demanding aen return, and uss, theres no way to turn them over to you even though we would love to be able to do that. Once snowden ended up in russia and the u. S. Government started to demand that he be extradited and turned over, there was a lot of secret negotiations between the russians and the americans. I was quite concerned that was going to end in agreement where snowden would be turned over. The animosity between the two Political Classes and this is even before ukraine. Precisely. That even though it probably would have been about their interest were the at a beach gotten very valuable things, they were not able to come to an agreement. Putin sought as a way to highlight the human rights abuses of the u. S. Government the way they love to highlight the human rights abuses of russia and other countries i giving snowden asylum. Glenn greenwald, you leave hong kong, Edward Snowden ends up with a silent, at least for now, in russia, and you begin lauraes of articles poitras as well, revealing these documents you have. Who has these documents . That is the critical question. Were example, does Edward Snowden have them in russia . Theres a certain universe of documents that Edward Snowden day to journalists. And of the journalists to whom he gave documents directly or indirectly, only laura and i have the full set. There are other news organizations that have enormous numbers of dr. And, not just the full set, including Washington Post and the guardian was quote and propublica and the new york times. There are multiple organizations that have numerous documents. Your spiegel has numerous because laura has worked with them in berlin and ive worked with other organizations around the world. They have lots of documents as well. Theyre very dispersed at this point. Edward snowden insists when he went to russia, on purpose, he took note documents with them of any kind. He took no documents with him of any kind. So how you broke through. It are at a point now where is known you and Laura Poitras had interviewed Edward Snowden. This is posted online, the video, at the guardian and youve written your article. Were talking about the danger Edward Snowden was in and what about the two of you and then what happened to Edward Snowden . Thee were pretty aware from beginning i think one of the important parts of the story is that we knew early on that what we were going to do was going to be at least as much about media and journalism issues as it was about surveillance. And the reason is, there is a set of unspoken rules that usually govern how Media Outlets handle stories like this. Which is, if you get a lot of documents, what you do at most is you publish one or two stories, you dont publish any of the raw materials, you go to the government and extensively negotiate with them about what you can publish and what you cant. You take all sorts of guidance about what you should and should not disclose. You do one or two stories, then kind of walk away before you do any real damage or disrupt anything for real. You collect some awards, get some accolades, and just sort of leave the status quo be that show the country that you have done some real journalism. Once we got the sense of how vast and sprawling this archive was, we knew we were going to do everything differently. We were going to a bore those rules because we dont believe in rules because theyre corrupted. We knew was we started publishing that one or two stories, but dozens of stories, and we were going to continue to publish until we were done, which is still our plan and still what we intend to do, that not just the government, but even fellow journalists were going to start looking at what we were doing with increasing levels of hostility and start to say, this doesnt actually seem like journalism anymore. Because it is not the kind of journalism they do. It does not abide by these unspoken rules that are designed to protect the government. We knew there would be risks, threats and accusations we were engaged in commonality and treason, the possibility we would be arrested or have Legal Process against us. My partner was detained for 11 hours under a Terrorism Law and still is the target of an ongoing criminal investigation. David miranda. And the past three months before we came back to the u. S. , laura and i for the first time three weeks ago, there was this escalating series of public threats from James Clapper who called us the compasses to mike rogers come the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee who called us fees and said we ought to be arrested. Creed that was supposed to make us uncertain about our fate, hoping we would curb the reporting or otherwise be a little less aggressive. I want to show so it is not just you send were concerned about people speaking their own from that exchange february between House Intelligence Committee chair mike rogers and fbi director james combs. There have been discussions about the selling of access to this material to both newspaper outlets and other places. To the best of your knowledge, is dancing still material, is that a crime . Yes, it is. Accessld be selling the of classified material that is still in from the United States government, would that be a crime . It would be. It can be complicated but in general, fencing or selling stolen property is a crime. So if i may newspaper for fillin the blank and i still still a material, is that legal because im a newspaper reporter . If you are a newspaper reporter and hawking stolen jewelry, it is still a crime. If im hawking material im not legally in possession of for personal gain and profit, is that not a crime . Harderink that is a question because it involves a newsgathering function. It could have First Amendment implications. It is something probably better answer by the department of justice. James coney being questioned by mike rogers, who by the way, says he will leave congress and the, radio talkshow host. Glenn greenwald . Immediately after that hearing, politico asked mike rogers from another there was any doubt anyway, but specifically who were you thinking about when you are engaged in that colloquy in he said, Glenn Greenwald. The headlines in politico and Huffington Post and many other places was, House Intelligence Committee chairman Glenn Greenwald of being a thief and a fence and engaging in felonies. So when you have those kinds of accusations being made by people who are powerful in washington, you take them seriously. The thing about it is, even if the threats dont and that manifesting in terms of arrest, it creates this climate that is intended to be created for journalists where journalists have to be afraid that the journalism theyre doing that is supposed to be protected by the First Amendment can be subjected to arresting and charging you with crimes in a federal court system that has been extreme the deferential to the Us Government post9 11 era. Greenwald, hisnn new book released tuesday is, no place to hide Edward Snowden, the nsa and the u. S. Surveillance state. When we come back, Glenn Greenwald talks about the Pulitzer Prize in the corporate medias response to his reporting. [music break] this is democracy now , democracynow. Org, the war and peace report. Im amy goodman. We return to part two of our special, an extended interview with Glenn Greenwald, author of the new book, no place to hide Edward Snowden, the nsa and the u. S. Surveillance state. Ago, Glenn Greenwald returned to the u. S. For the First Time Since breaking the snowden story. He and phil mcgraw more poitras flew in from berlin to accept the george polk award. Days later, the Pulitzer Prize was given to the guardian and Washington Post for their coverage of the snowdens leaked. Former nsa director general Keith Alexander criticized the committee saying asked Glenn Greenwald to respond. First of all, as a journalist, i consider it an additional prize that somebody like Keith Alexander is so angry at the journalism i am doing that he is willing to make those things up in order to discredit it. The idea of her journalist is that you ought to be adversarial to people like Keith Alexander. I would be a lot more worried if you like the reporting we did and praised it that i am that he is saying things like that. What is so important to realize, if you go back 40 years and look at what was said about Daniel Ellsberg who most people across the political spectrum now consider to of been her rohit and justified and noble in what he did, the same exact things were said about him. In fact, nixon went before congress and accused him of being a secret russian spy and said he put lives at risk to miss that people were going to die as a result of these disclosures, he was a traitor and engaged in treason. All of which have been proven to be utter fabrications. Every single whistleblowing event that has happened since then, including the 2005 nsa story which someone in the Justice Department told about that and the rendition programs come the same rhetoric is constantly invoked which is, if used shine a light on what we if you shine a light on what were doing that we have not authorized to do do, you will have blood on her hands. There is an irony to being accused by u. S. General he served in iraq, of having blood on your hands or causing the death of innocent people. Nobody can ever surpassed Keith Alexander and his fellow generals in their ability to do that. The claim is made all the time without any evidence because in reality, the only thing that has been harmed by the disclosures is not the lives of innocent people, but the reputation and credibility of people like Keith Alexander. So you can understand why theyre so interested in demeaning them. I want to ask about the politics of the Pulitzer Prize. The Pulitzer Prize for Public Service that went to the guardian and Washington Post is perhaps the highest, the first one named. Clearly, you and Laura Poitras led these teams. You were in the articles that are cited in the guardian your name is on one after the next after the next and Laura Poitras is on both the guardian website and well as the Washington Post. But technically, according to the rules of the pulitzer, you each will have to say you were the of the team that won pulitzer, that you cant be called a Pulitzer Prizewinning reporter. The we will cut you that here at democracy now what about the politics of this . Although the Pulitzer Prize for Public Service usually goes to institution, it often coming evening going to an institution, cites the bravery every particular reporter in reporting the series of stories. Can you talk about that . I dont think theres any secret about the fact that the journalism that i advocate for and engage in is controversial among a large klatch of what i will call establishment journalist. I talked before about there being these unwritten set of rules that govern how youre supposed to speak and what youre supposed to do that i consciously reject and set out to violate because i think they are corrupting. I have been a burst of first click of the established media ive been a critic of the established media in the u. S. The people who have composed this committee are the target of the criticism and also the targets of the reporting of the way i try to do the journalism. It is understandable and we have gotten reports there was some effort on the committee to make sure that my name and lauras name did not sully their wonderful brand. But at the same time, the way i really look at it is, it is the prize that im glad was awarded. In part because i think some of the best reporting has been done in history including watergate and the pentagon papers. The we try to do was to reporting in Public Service. Theres been no shortage of individual accolades and honors that laura and i and even Edward Snowden have received. I feel we have gotten our due credit and much more. It is true. I think this is been a little obscured. We were not out there alone. Put itsrdian it 190your reputation on the line. We did not always agree on everything but for the most part, they did the story very fearlessly and very aggressively. There were teams of editors working on our stories and other reporters who did reporting and were brave. I think they deserve the award institutionally and i think it is obvious a lot of the reporting that was won was reporting i did, but they definitely deserve the recognition as well. Overall, i am thrilled with the way the prize was awarded, even though i know there were these internal conflicts that i think are to be expected. Does it also go to the issue of old media and new media . Yeah. If you look at the way Washington Post it its reporting, not only did they not send anyone to hong kong, which created a big rift between them and their source, but i think i published one story for several weeks. Those were the kinds of roles. Rules. Media,ldstyle, old neutered and impotent and obsolete. Newcomer,ian is this this outsider, this mostly webbased publication that has more of an internet, new media culture. I went there because they have a history in the past of deviating from this sort of very conservative progovernment line and doing reporting that is in the public interest. I think that came through and how they stood behind the reporting and really supported it every step of the way. Any talk about the website you are unveiling today that is the backup information and documents with no place to hide . One thing i insisted upon and they agreed to, whatever was reported in the book, i wanted to make sure they were Available Online for free as well because it is information about to be public. Simultaneous with the release of the book today, we are publishing online dozens of new documents that are reported on in the book including some of the ones we discussed that i think shine a whole new light on the nsa and various programs. What is happening with the outletpt, your new web that you and Laura Poitras and Jeremy Scahill have developed along with the support of the owner of ebay . I think we published 12 or 14 new nsa stories in three months or so since we have existed. As i said earlier, were working on once i think will be among the biggest, if not the most significant nsa stories still to come. The benefit of it is, we have lots of reporters who are working on it with me and lots of editors and lawyers helping to make the story right. We are simultaneously expanding because we launched earlier than we were ready so we could do the nsa reporting, into the daily news outlet and analysis provider at we intend to be. Glenn greenwald, Edward Snowden what happens to him now . It is a must the First Anniversary of Edward Snowden in hong kong with you releasing these documents. He has gotten political asylum for now in russia. Talk about the debate that is going on in the white house, in this country, about what should happen to him. He clearly wants to come home. He does, but he is only willing to come home if he is given a fair opportunity to make his case. Right now, that is impossible. There is sort of bravado that pervades the washington Political Class and media class when they talk about snowden, which is, if he really believes what he did was justified, he should man up and come home and make his case in court. But the way they have created the rules that govern espionage act cases, which is what this will be, a defendant charged with violating the espionage act is barred from making the very defense theyre trying to work him into making were claimed you could make, which is, i do but i did because it was justified. That a court would never allow. The entire Playing Field of how the u. S. Judiciary operates in this case is designed to ensure enough their trial and inevitable prosecution. For year and russia. There are strong signs that is going to be renewed, if not for another year, probably longer. There are also debate and lots of other countries, including powerful and influential once about giving him asylum in those countries like germany and brazil. I think his future is relatively light as for staying out of a u. S. Cage in the prison system, but where he ends up is still a question mark. For him, as long as hes able freely to present spate participate, then he will feel very satisfied and happy. And the debate it has opened up in the United States . Has it surprised you, who began his journey with Edward Snowden over a year ago . It has surprised me greatly. Ive been working on surveillance issues for eight years and i know the difficulty in trying to induce large numbers of people to Pay Attention and care about them. It is a little more abstract and even remote is a your inability to pay bills or get Health Insurance for your children. The ability we have had to take these documents and show them to people as opposed to just reporting on it and making them rely on what were saying, has been indispensable in engaging the public. I think it shows the value of whistleblowing not for just exposing specific programs, the strengthening democracy in the debate that is necessary to support it. Pulitzer prizewinning reporter Glenn Greenwald. Visit democracynow. Org for part one of glenn when he talks about his new book, no place to hide Edward Snowden, the nsa and the u. S. Surveillance state. Democracy now is looking for feedback from people who appreciate the closed captioning. Email your comments to outreach democracynow. Org or mail them to democracy now p. O. Box 693 new york, new york 10013. [captioning made possible by democracy now ]  cc