Transcripts For KYW Face The Nation 20170416

Dismissed. I said it was obsolete, it is no longer obsolete. Dickerson we will take a look at the emerging trump Foreign Policy doctrine, including last weeks syrian missile strike. Further deterioration of our relations with russia, and the u. S. Decision to drop the mother of all bombs on an isis stronghold in afghanistan. This was another very, very successful mission. Dickerson then we will talk to pulse prize winning author David Mccullough about what history can teach us about living in Uncertain Times and on this sunday celebration of easter and pass over we will look at the role of faith in the face of crisis. It is all ahead on face the nation. Dickerson good morning and welcome to face the nation. Ian joh John Dickerson and begin this morning with new developments overnight in north korea. Cbs news Foreign Correspondent ben tracy filed this report earlier from pyongyang. The failed Missile Launch took on north koreas east coast sunday morning. It is unclear what type of missile it was, but the u. S. Military says it was not an enter continental Ballistic Missile that would be capable of hitting the United States. The failure came just hours after north korea proudly displayed its arsenal in pyongyang, during an elaborate military parade. Hundreds of thousands of people filled the main square saturday. Soldiers march with precision. Tanks rolled down the street and north korea showed off its dangerous new possessions, a variety of Ballistic Missiles that can threaten its neighbors and nearby u. S. Bases, watching over all of it was the countrys leader the kim jongun. At the parade here in pyongyang a top ranking north korean official gave a speech and said the United States is creating a dangerous situation and that if u. S. Wants war north korea will answer with war. And this is clearly designed to remind the world what they are capable of. The white house is taking a more aggressive stance towards north korea, trying to pressure it to end a series of escalating Missile Launches and Nuclear Tests. President trump said a naval strike force in the peninsula the and called north korea a menace that is looking for trouble. North korea calls these provocative acts. He is the countrys vice minister of Foreign Affairs. He said the Trump Administrations policy towards north korea is the most hostile ever. Do you feel like your Missile Launches, your Nuclear Tests are making this situation worse . The u. S. Says north Koreas Nuclear buildup is the root cause of the escalating tensions on the Korean Peninsula, but we have to face reality, the u. S. Is the one that compelled north korea to go nuclear and is responsible for this vicious cycle. North korea saifs it will hot provoke a war but if they detect an attack from the u. S. They will launch a preemptive strike with every weapon they have. If you feel that north korea is going to be attacked, you will use Nuclear Weapons . He responded, of course. China, north koreas one main ally, is worried this war of words could quickly become an actual war at a News Conference friday, chinas foreign minister stayed there would be no winners a war. Whoever starts the war on the Korean Peninsula, he said, has to bear the historical responsibility and the consequences. The Trump Administration would like china to put more pressure on north korea to end its Nuclear Program, but it is unclear if that would work. North koreas vice minister of Foreign Affairs told me there is nothing that will stop them from conducting a sixth nuclear test and do it whenever they see fit. Dickerson cbs news Foreign Correspondent ben tracy reporting from pyongyang. Now for some analysis on what is going on in the world we are joined by Washington Post columnist David Ignatius p we want to welcome David Nakamura White House Reporter for the Washington Post to the broadcast and rob written wright is a joint fellow at the u. S. Institute for peace in the Wilson Center and a contributor to the new yorker. Jamelle bouie is a cbs news political analyst and slate sheet chiefs political correspondent. David i want to start with you, what kind ofest is is north korea for donald trump. Donald trump, i think has decided right from the beginning of his administration this was the first big challenge, there are two things that strike me, the first is that the administration led by the president has decided now is the time to deal with north koreas rapidly advancing military threat. Now before they have a Nuclear Tipped Missile they can point to the United States. The second and that obviously includes more discussion of military options than we are used to. Second is to work closely with china and to make the concessions necessary to draw china in as a partner. It has been striking in the presence of first three months, it is almost, you know, head spinning how much he has changed his line on china, a country that was raping the United States during the campaign, now the white house talks of china as our key parts her in dealing with north korea. President tweets praise for chinas diplomatic efforts, but i think the basic message the president said publicly is what he said privately, if china cannot help us do this in private, the United States is prepared to take action to deal with north korea before it has the full tubing collar capability. Dickerson robin, is escalation of the rhetoric from the president to the tweets, the pressure on north korea, the military flexing of the muscle, is that creating a likelihood of a confrontation . I mean, does that, keeping things on the boil is that going to work or are there considerable down snides. I think there are down sides but i think fundamentally the United States and china have a different way of looking at what the solution to the north korean challenge is, the United States wants to use its muscle to kind of say we are here and not going to tolerate this and then rely on china to actually do the squeezing of pyongyang to comply. The problem is that the chinese dont really want to see a unified korea. They dont want to see a pro western oriented government. They actually dont mind the current government remaining just they want to take away the nuclear component. They actually would like to see diplomacy work. Thats the irony, that the chinese want to see a grand bargain in which the United States actually negotiates with the North Koreans on the question of both Nuclear Program and its long range missiles, and thats something i am not sure the Trump Administration is really grappled with, how do you do that, how do you engage . This is the fourth american president that tried to negotiate with or has tried to deal with the north korean challenge and every one of them so far has recognized the dip city is the only way out and thats something we havent seen from this administration yet. Dickerson thats right. And janelle, with, we have seen to robins point not, i dont know how to put more emphasis on dip city really but the ratcheting up from the president who has talked about the red line that barack obama drew with respect to syria being a great failure of a president obama but here the President Trump seems to be drawing a red line the u. S. Will go it alone, u. S. Administration officials are talking about taking action in north korea so if months from now no action is taken the president will be making boasts he didnt follow up on. Right. I mean that is what for me, i come back to, come back to trump the person, and trumps personality and President Trump in his prior career his negotiating style was very much a making demands, making threats, promises to take some sort of punitive action. And here is the situation where we are doing that, we risk starting a war, a Major International incident so i am not entirely sure looking at Donald Trumps trump failure and present circumstance how new is going to play out. I do know we are all aware that the Trump Administration isnt just uninterested in diplomacy, it is not even put forth the resources to the state department to the medic corp to some kind of diplomatic solution in north korea. So, you know, the pieces here, everything here, there is, obviously of course always a range of out comes but the weight seems to be on a range of out comes that are not optimal for the United States or china or south korea for that matter. Dickerson david, what do you make of sort of the President Trumps interaction with his Foreign Policy team . In the presidency so far he is constrained by the courts, by congress, this is an area on Foreign Policy where he can act without those kind of constraints, how do you read this . What is interesting going back even a week to the strikes in syria is you are seeing some folks who, we didnt know would have a great deal of influence with this president given the rhetoric in the campaign, a sense w we were going to withdrw from some of the Global Leadership and come to the fore, that includes mcmaster the National Security advisor, certainly jim mattis at the pentagon and even Rex Tillerson who to some degree has, as jamelle said they are not talking they are talking about withdrawing money from the state department and downplaying the role but you saw him take a lead in some ways in formulating some of the policies and what they emphasize, i was down in marg lago when the strikes happened in syria was the interaction between the agencies and they tried to suggest trump wasnt acting impulsively but doing this as standard president s do. In taking in input from all of the different agencies, looking at different options and choosing one. Thats not an approach we always saw him do. With north korea, i think you are see some of the same things, the president put a lot of emphasis on his military and letting them take the lead and sending a strike force to the Korean Peninsula is certainly sending a message that it is not business as usual, with north korea, at the same time, there has been no plan behind the scenes the administration talks about maximum pressure and engagement but the engagement we dont have any idea what that means. Dickerson robin, this morning the president took to twitter, a variety of statements from him but one on this topic, the president said why would i call china a currency manipulator when they are working with us on the north korean problem . We will see what happens, he says with an exclamation point. What could china want from the United States that might help them get through those complexities . You outlined earlier to actually take care of this problem for the president instead of having military action . Well, the basic problem is that the United States is relying on china and china thinks the United States really is the one that has to do the legwork and the heavy lifting on this. But this is in many ways this test is a challenge or a test of the relationship between President Trump and president xi. President trump tweeted earlier he has great confidence with china in dealing with the north korean question and, you know, china then turns around and announces that its trade with north korea is increased 40 percent in the First Quarter of this year. And it has taken some little steps, turning back a fleet of coal ships that were delivering to china. So trying to look like he is taking some action. But the fact is, it is pretty minimal. And so this is something that is going to, i think it is a little bit like russia, you know, you have that moment of yes, we are going this is going to be a different relationship and then you find the realities of the world force them back into the old kind of tensions and what it was under the Previous Administration even before that. Dickerson david, the president seeing the realities of the world said in conversation with the chinese president he learned that relationship between china and north korea was for complicated than he thought. Assess the president s learning curve, then, because this is the second time he said that and also says that about healthcare. A steep learning curve, if you go back to the first meeting with president obama, it was president obama that trump boasted after his election it was supposed to last 15 minutes and lasted an hour and a half. I think trump said it was supposed to last longer but that north korea is such a problem, trump emphasized and that woke him up and you are seeing now to his credit elevating this problem and, you know, president obama to some degree he focused on iran was criticized what are you going to do about north korea, it is a different set of challenges so now you are seeing the president have this learning curve, he has met first with Prime Minister abi in japan and president xi and talked about this chocolate cake and talked about the policies but deeper down it is a learning curve, it is very difficult the situation in north korea and it is perplexed administration after administration. I think one thing to keep in mind this missile test because failure today, but experts say that the North Koreans learn each time, in their mind it is not a failure. Dickerson the president either, and throw in the president s change of mind on nato, in syria, is the president being guided into what is a kind of Foreign Policy consensus about the way you and these difficult problems . I think we are learning that he has key advisors on Foreign Policy who are of the republican mainstream, and they have had more influence, i think, secretary mattis of defense and secretary tillerson of state are really trying to bond. I am told they tried to work through a common position before each key meeting. Hr mcmaster is a very orderly process oriented National Security advisor. Dena powell the white house classic manager of people and bureaucracy, so as this team has had some success over the last two weeks, they feel that syria use a success, they feel the xi meeting was a success, i think they really bonded with each other. So i think the president feels enhanced by his team going forward. Just briefly, two other points that go to what we have been discussing. The first is, i think that this administration is exploring ways that you could address chinas concern about a future north korea, a unified north korea that might threaten them to say, that is really not what we are thinking about. Second, this has to be speculation but as david said, weekends big event was going to be this Missile Launch and it was it was a flop. It blew up as soon as it took off, the New York Times reported recently that 88 percent of north koreas intermediate range missile tests in the last several years, 88 percent have been failures. Something is going on. Is this for missiles . We dont know, it was a very weird he elliptical statement by secretary of defense mattis but i think those two things are worth bearing in mind. Dickerson yes, we are sending some software to their missile systems. Jamelle tell me about the politics. If there is a republican Foreign Policy consensus, that is not what the trump voters was expecting. He campaigned against the republican mainstream arguing the iraq war was a mistake, arguing his opponent on the stage in the republican primary was too eager to use the military. So this this is an interesting shift of gears. I think it reflects the extent to which he doesnt have very much knowledge or experience. At least a bit of an empty vessel in a lot of places, so depending on the quality of his advisors, depending on the pep around him, he takes particular steps. It is unclear how this will appeal to his voters. I think this comes ultimately to the question of what do his voters specifically want . There is a chance, right, that this new approach alienates them but as chance that because the Trump Administration is moving forward on its immigration plans, continuing to deport and continuing to harass immigrant communities that will shake out evenly. Dickerson we will have to end it there. Thanks to all of you and we will be back in some moment with some Historical Perspective from author David Mccullough. And we are back now with author and historian David Mccullough, his new work the american spirit is out tuesday. Welcome, we are very glad to have you here, david. These are your speeches, overtime, is there a through line in these speeches . Is there a mental that is kind of you see in a lot of them together . Yes. I think we need to remember who we are and how we got to be where we are and how much we owe to those who went before us. And there is much to be learned from them, much to be learned from history. We are not doing very well or not doing as well as we should in raising our oncoming generations with an appreciation of the story of their country. I dont think there is any aspect of education that matters more to effective leadership than knowledge of what went before us. Most effective president s we have had, for example, have all been avid readers, students of history. Dickerson in terms of history, lets start with the leaders first. Does it give them a sense of the craziness of the moment will pass, soily stick to my stick to what i am doing because other leaders were criticized in their moment and i will be okay. How do they use it in practical terms, the history . Well for one thing they understand how our system works, our government, how that all the three part system and so forth. But history is about people. History is human. Jefferson said when in, when in the course of human events the operative word is human so if you want to understand people and how people behave and how people can be responsible, how people can be read history, history is not about people who lived in the past. Nobody ever lived in the past. They have lived in the present. It was their present, not ours. And they didnt walk around in their 18th century clothes saying, arent we picturesque and what do you think people will make of us because we dress this way . If you read into the life of someone like George Washington or Martin Luther king or margaret she a smith in congress, you draw not just guidance from that but inspiration. And the one quality that is prevalent in so many of our best, most important leaders, our most inspiring examples is they do not quit, perseverance. A lot of people who are detractors of the current president or even those who are supporters of the current president think that things are in a kind of crazy state, in a chaotic state now. Yes. Dickerson the president supporters like that. Is this moment an aberrant moment or is this pretty much we have had moments of chaos in American History and we get through them . I think we are living in what is clearly a dangerous time. Not just because of International Tensions and clouds hanging over, but because we are sort of groping with how to repair an engine that we dont know how to even take apart. You have to understand the patients that you are tending to and you have to know something about medicine and, yes, we have had times where we wanted to change things but we have also had times that have been more unsettling, more worrisome, more painful, more costly than what we are going through now. And we think this is just so bleak and unpromising because we really dont know what we have been through before and how we came through it. I like to tell people about the because we are made of sugar candy. Dickerson final question is there an american character and if so, what is it . At best, honesty. Courage, strength of character, and faith in our way of life, belief that what those predecessors of ours, those pilgrims, those pioneers worked so hard to attain is something that we are obligated to know about and also not just to sustain but to improve. Make yourself useful. Dont boast about yourself. Dont get too full of yourself. Be kind, be modest. In the white house, in the mantelpiece in the state dining room there is quotation carved into the marble from a letter written by john adams to abigail, his first night as president in the white house. He wrote the letter in which he said, may none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof. It is still there. Kennedy had it carved into the marble. Roosevelt carved it in first in wood and then truman preserved it when he was president and they were redoing the white house. But i think what is best about that line is that he puts honesty first. May none that honest and wise men ever rule under this roof. And i think that is one thing that we americans really want is honesty. Not just in a president , but in everybody we live with, work with and have a good time with. Dickerson David Mccullough, thank you so much. Thank you. Dickerson and we will be back in a moment. Reaction. Ts a chain. Thats heard throughout the connected business world. At t Network Security helps protect business, from the largest Financial Markets to the smallest transactions, by sensing cyberattacks in near real time and automatically deploying countermeasures. Dub seen, [bullfighting music] [burke] billygoat ruffians. Seen it. Covered it. We know a thing or two because weve seen a thing or two. We are farmers. Bumpadum, bumbumbumbum bounty is more absorbent,mom per roll so the roll can last 50 longer than the leading ordinary brand. So you get more life per roll. Bounty, the quicker picker upper say carl, we have a question about your brokerage fees. Fees . What did you have in mind . 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Russell moore is the president of the Southern Baptist ethics and religious Liberty Commission and Abigail Pogrebin is as writer, her latest book is my jewish year, 18 holidays, one wondering jew. And father james martin joins us from new york, father martin is a jesuit priest and editor at large at american magazine. Father, i want to start with you. The jesuits believe that god can be found in all things. What does that mean in the practical life of a catholic . Well, it means that god is not just confined or the experience offed to is not just confined to walls of a church or reading the bible. God can be experienced in all moments of our lives, in relationships, in work, in our family and friends, and nature. So it is an invitation to really meet god in all things and all people and in all events. Dickerson abby, you wrote that you said you were jewish in the way the olive garden was italian. That you had a hunger that led you to write your book. Tell me about that hunger. You know, i was one of those, someone calls us cafeteria style jews, i picked and chose and part of it was because i didnt have a real basic in, basis in Jewish Education and i was missing it, i was missing the infrastructure, the architecture of a jewish year and thats why i took a deep dive, spending an entire year observing every jewish holiday on the calendar and as you may have had a sense of it, there are quite a few. Dickerson russell, you are in the middle of the political conversation, in washington, constantly being pulled into the political, but how, where does faith for you sit outside of the political . When you think of your faith . Well, most of it is outside of the political, i am the kind of person, some people come to faith after years of Substance Abuse and all sorts of problems. I had the opposite situation. I was a good kid growing up in the bible belt thinking that somehow i could achieve something for god in a way that would make god accept me and receive me and the gospel that came to me in my teenage years told me you dont have to perform, but put your faith in jesus christ and the good news is that god receives you by grace, just receive that and trust that. Thats what upended my life. Dickerson and, rod, you have written a lot about, this not just your current book but your faith you have written about in your other books, where does it sit for you in your life. Well, faith is everything, it is my life, i think that in america we tend to have a terrible tendency to separate church from life, to compartmentalize it and keep it on sunday morning and maybe holy days but as an Orthodox Christian i have been an orthodox for 11 years now i have come to see that christianity is a total way of life, it is a way of life, with an institution attached it to, for me and my family, life is the liturgy, life is the holy days, life is prayer, life is fasting and life is joy. I have been so filled with joy from in just worshipping as an Orthodox Christian, i think that is the secret to the orthodox life is the joy of christ. Dickerson father, you have written about that joy in your book about comedy and laughter in the religious life, but let me ask you about easter. For some people, easter is about eggs and getting the kids, as much candy as you can get. What is easter really about, though . Well, mr. Dreher is right, it is about joy, the basic message of easter is christ has risen which changes everything, underlying that is the message that life is stronger than death, that hope is stronger than despair and love is stronger than hate. So easter is the center of the christian message, and it is a joyful message, it is good news after all, so it is a lot more than about eggs and marshmallow peeps. Dickerson abby, you write about pass over, of course, the message of pass over obviously being the jews no longer being enslaved but i was interested in the idea as it carries to the current moment, but also the other holidays you write about. What is the role those play in the jewish year and the jewish faith . I would say, you know, taking this immersive dive, which really has changed my life and my perspective, frankly, on every day, i interviewed over 62 rabbis and if anything came through from their message, for every holiday and passover, in particular, it is that you look at our history, and what the message of memory is, and over and over again it is to look at the stranger, to say we have been a stranger, we have been the oppressed and that means we cannot become the oppressor, we need look at the person who is struggling, not just next door, but the person we dont know or have never met and that comes through absolutely in passover, it is a universal message of redemption, of being, taken out from bondage into dream but also who around us is in bondage right now and for some people that son a very global level, for some it is a very internal bondage, some feel very personally they are stuck or enslaved. The exodus story is a very powerful one and also embodies the christian search to be released from the bondage of sin and be brought to the Promised Land of life in christ. And i think that is one thing that gets lost in a lot of american christianity, it tends to be very, very comfortable. Very therapeutic, in fact, if we are to move to yes, si res recon we must die to ourselves which are things very uncomfortable to us, like welcome ago stranger. Some people fear death in a way in which they want to identify themselves with their careers. Some people fear death and they experience that as despair and a lack of meaning, as an evangelical christian i think god answered that on Easter Sunday with raising of jesus from the dead which for me is not a near metaphor, we really believe that this previously dead body has come back to life which is good news. It is a significant fact in the universe. Dickerson we will take a pause right there and after the short break we will be right back with more from our panel. Dude. Your crunchings scaring the fish. Dude. Theyre just jealous. New kelloggs raisin bran crunch with crunchy clusters and the taste of apples and strawberries. excited i got one jokingly guess were having cereal for dinner. New kelloggs raisin bran crunch apple strawberry so let me get this straight. Youre a rabbit . Im vern, the orange money retirement rabbit, from voya. Riiight. And that means. . Im the money you save for retirement. I help you get organized so your money could multiply. See . Got it. Whos he . Hes green money for spending today. You know, paying bills, maybe a little online shopping. Makes it easy to tell you apart. That, and i am better looking. I heard that. When its time to get organized for retirement, its time to get voya. Hi hey you look good. Thank you, i feel good. It all starts with eating right. Thats why i eat amaz n prunes now. Theyre delicious and help keep my body in balance. I love these. Sunsweet amaz n prunes, the feel good fruit. Dickerson and we are back with more from our panel on this holiday sunday. Father martin, i want to ask you about politics and religion here. You are now a consulter to the vatican secretary for communications. One of the things i hear from american catholics is they love Pope Franciss message and then some of them say, though, but i wish he wouldnt talk about politics which for them means what he said about global warming. How should people understand what the popes role is in political life . Should he stay out of it . The pope isnt really talking politics though when she talking about global warming. He is talking about caring for the environment, caring for gods creation and so his encyclical is really a kind of compendium of catholic teaching on economic and matters as well, he talks about welcoming the stranger which was i talked about earlier, welcoming the migrant and refugee he is simply preaching the gospel so what if he says and the proclamation of the bible has political overtones so be it but he is not setting out to be an overtly political person. Dickerson President Trump has been elected with 81 percent support of evangelical christians, is that a good or bad thing for religion in public life . Well i think we will see what the next few years will mean for a religion and American Life but i think most evangelicals wherever they stood on the election have the understanding that the bible commands us to pray for our leaders and wish the best force our leaders and wish the best for our country so i think boast evangelical christians willing to pray for President Trump, for his administration, and also too seek to be good citizens. Dickerson ron, in the years i have covered politics, there are a lot of people who have invested very heavily, people of faith who invested heavily in the political process and it ends up disappointing them because of the natural compromises that are a part of politics and then sometimes the natural switchbacks against belief, whereas belief is all about maintaining a set of principles come what may. How do you see that and the connection between religion and politics in American Life . Well, i think father martin is correct that the gospel does have certain political implications, if by political you mean having to deal with the life we live together, the common good. But i think that people like me, conservative christians have made an enormous mistake over the past 30 years in placing too many eggs in the political basket, we tended to think that if we just elect the right republican and get the right republicans into congress receiving going to take care of itself. Well, that didnt happen and in the meantime, we lost the culture. So what i call the benedict option is for christians to step back from politics, not get away from it entirely but reprioritize things and start placing more of your emphasis on the local, on building up your local community, because that is politics too. Dickerson abby, the question of israel and protecting israel is a very important issue for jewish americans. It has become a central part of our politics and how do you see that issue . Because in the conversations i have had with american jews, the question of israel can get so hot so fast. It is very true. I would say that if there is anything the Jewish Community that we havent quite figured out is how to talk to each other about our disagreements about israel, i would say what we have in common is that it is not just a place that is precious but a place we all believe in, and some people say, i love america but i dont necessarily love the governments decisions, every decision or policy the government decides, i think similarly, we all love israel, we dont always agree about how israel is necessarily conducting itself in given, any given moment but generally we are a tiny people and we kind of i dont think we can afford to be as divided about something that we all care so dearly about, because it is something that if you i think ask every jew they would say is fundamental to our identity. Dickerson father martin, do you see a threat to religious hive coming from politics . Often politics accounts, politicians can force religious people or religious leaders to take side politically but the church really needs to transcend that because if we align ourselves with one party we are disappointed and also we need to keep our independence, so there can be a threat in terms of trying to sort of box religious people in and i think yous people need to be free of a kind of over identification with one party or another or one politician or another. Dickerson is that, russell, do you see that where various evangelicals i talked to said, you know, the idea that basically if you are not a republican you cant be an evangelical. Is that unfair, that criticism or do you well i think it is even broader than that, i think we live in an American Society as we become identified as our political identity first no matter what our religion is or no religion i think that is part of the problem. I think when secular americans look at evangelical christians they see us simply in political terms, so i think evangelicals are like cicadas we go undergrouped until the Iowa Caucuses every year and thats when people Pay Attention to what evangelical christians are doing. The in reality most of our lives have nothing to do with politics, most of our lives is about building up through the teaching of the gospel the kind of comu communities that will then be able to live out their lives in various ways so one of the primary messages we have is to say, politics is an important discussion, but it is not an ultimate discussion, and so anyone, no matter where they are on the spectrum there right to left, who puts ultimate hope there is going to be ultimately disappointed. Dickerson ron, let me ask you about the secular protections of various faiths, are those working against or a part of the genius of the american system . I think it was adams who said that our constitution is made for moral and religious people, but it is insufficient to govern in the other. Back when we had a more general civil religion base odd ten Judeo Christian tradition i think it was easier for us to solve our problems, because we had a common base of authority there, and a common framework for discussion. That is gone. That is what i mean by christians, not that there are no christians but we lost that basis. So i think that as we see the greater secularization of america, we are also seeing the state coming down harder and harder on religious liberty, especially around lgbt issues, that is where the next fight is for religious liberty around the right of christian institutions and other christian institutions to govern themselves according to their faith. I think that a lot of people voted for trump with a heavy heart, a lot of christians thinking that at least trump would not be as aggressive going after religious institutions as the democrats were. I think maybe we will be happy with that, i hope so. But trump is not going to be the ultimate savior of christianity in america. Dickerson what is your view of the secular protections that a lot of people feel allows them to worship in america are seen by other americans as the thing that is encroaching upon religion in American Life . I think it is a very dangerous sort of conversation that we are having right now, where there is a push to marginalize religious institutions to the point where they cant be religious anymore. I think that is dangerous and i think that is not just dangerous for religious people, that is dangerous for secular nonreligious people. We heed to be the kind of society that protects conscience, that protects the right of people to live out the deepest convictions so that they have, and so the idea that if we dont like speech we shut it down and if we dont like religions we shut them out is not one that we should pursue in American Life. We are sitting here at this table basically all agreeing and we share actually many of the same principles and texts and in some sense we should get back to what our traditions actually tell us about how to live our lives. There are blueprints that are thousands of years old that in a sense we have abandoned for the political realm and it is not a pollyanna utopian view we are all going to agree but i do think we have gotten too far away from what our texts are actually teaching us and perhaps to the fathers point where the pope was not talking politically if we read much more about what our tradition is demanding of us maybe we would have less divisions and actually be more unified. Dickerson final word to you, father, on this question of the secular protections in america and the tension with religious life. Well, i would say certainly, you know, religious people need to be protected but i would also say that we need to make sure that the people who have been marginalized in the past, lgbt people, minorities, and even atheists and agnostics feel included in our vision. You know, jesus christs vision was one of inclusion and always drawing people in from the outside, and so i think as long as we dont exclude or marginalize people even further in this conversation, i think we will be doing okay. Dickerson all right. I want to a thank our panel, all of you for being here and we will be back in a moment. Dickerson there was so much news at the end of last week we were unable to bring you our discussion with former white house chiefs of staff denis mcdonough, who worked for president obama, and ken duberstein, from the reagan white house. They, along with 15 others are the subject of a new book by Chris Whipple called the gatekeepers how the white house chiefs of staff define every presidency. We began by asking author whipple why the job was so important. Well, you know, it is critically important, one of the things i learned from talking to all of the living white house chiefs is that president s find out often the hard way that you cannot govern effectively without empowering the white house chief of staff as first among equals in the white house to, number one, to execute your agenda, number 2, tell you things that you dont want to hear. Modern history shows the wreckage of presidencies that did not understand that lesson. Dickerson ken, what does the person of president picks to be their chief of staff say about a president . You see an awful lot, it says an awful lot about a president because it is the person he spends the most time with other than his wife. She the person who you is trusted, tells you things you dont want to hear, as chris said, you are the reality therapist. Everybody walks into the oval office, gets tonguetied. They tell the president what they think the president wants to hear, not what he needs to know. The chief of staff has to tell him what he needs to know. Dickerson ken, when you are chief of staff do you always kind of have the president inside your head . Is that a part of the job or knowing the president s instincts . Do you have to kind of intuit where the person is going who is the president . Absolutely. You get to know the man. You get to know where he is going, what his goals are, what is acceptable. You know, on reagans case, he always would take 80 percent of what he wanted, tip oneill used to say, i dont like because reagan gets 80 percent of what he wants and reagan would turn to jim baker and to me and others and say, i will take 80 percent every time. And i will come back the next year for the additional 20. Thats what governing is all about. Reagan understood that the far right and the far left, as he used to remind us, are professional pitch bitchers, they dont want to be satisfied, thats how they get their money and how they get their members, so get what you can, get that 80 percent, figure out how to build a coalition that gets you that and then keep moving. Dont worry about the far left or the far right. Dickerson denis, you did something with president obama called the wrap, the walk at the end of the day, what was that about and what were those conversations like . We used to just sit in the oval and just go over what happened during the day and what was teed up for next day i think it was kind of a nice springtime like this, nbc, he said lets walk. And so, you know, sometimes the walk would be one lap, sometimes it would be more than one, sometimes we would be joined by others. But the point was to just have one moment to try to stop, get out of the kind of the rigmarole of the day and take a look ahead at what more we needed to do, what more we had hanging over for the next day. Dickerson chris, the chief of staff is so powerful that does it ever come to be the case that they become a little too powerful for the president s own liking . Certainly that has been the President Trump has talked about steve bannon, steve bannon is not the chief of staff but talking about tension between steve bannon, the man behind the throne, is this a problem or potential problem. It has been a problem with some white house chiefs. The far greater problem in my mind is when no one seems to be in charge, which may sound familiar at the moment. When you have eight or nine senior advisors or even four or five equal access to the oval, no one is a bait keeper, no one is in charge of the information flow, no one is in charge of executing policy, then you have what jerry ford used to call the spokes of the wheel, where money is in charge, that it took jerry ford about a month to figure out that that was a disaster. Dickerson ken, in the current administration, you have achieve of staff, you have steve bannon advising the president who is quite powerful and you have the president s daughter, who also has an Important Role and then you have the president easton law, that is at least four people with, i dont know whether you wanted to call it walk into the white house office, privileges or seems to be on the same kind of power level. How do you evaluate that power structure in terms of the job that achieve of staff has to get done . By chriss, going by chriss comment the president needs to empower one person to be the white house chief of staff and the funnel rather than the spokes of the wheel, the person in Reince Priebus who has to be designated as first among equals. He is the person who may be the partner and may be a partnership of the white house with lots of people but he is the senior partner. Dick cheney once told me, you cant have eight or nine guys sitting around with a very tough issue that you have to take to the president. As bill clinton found out. Saying hey it is your turn to tell him, no, no it is your turn to tell him. Somebody has got to be the guy who goes in with a piece of bad news. You can have all the discussion you want, but when the door closes in the oval office and it is, it is you and the president , you are the one that has to deliver that message. It aint going to fly. Dickerson what is the worst message you had to deliver . Oh, there were lots of them. Dickerson denis, how about you, any that you felt like there was a there are these things all the time with wgbh the worst is that healthcare wasnt going to go, and particularly bad, he spent the entire Previous Year and monthly and biweekly and weekly meetings concluding them by saying, now everybody understands that this only works if the website works, right . And everybody said, yes, absolutely, mr. President. So yes, that was preceded by a gulp. But you do that every day. Yes. There is always something. Dickerson skill set, chris, so we have talked about the ability to say no, the ability to set up a system. What else does achieve of staff mean . You know, i dont know if you guys would free but i think temperament is a huge part of it. I think when you look at our present company, but especially at james baker or leon panetta, these are grounded, sensible people who are comfortable in their own skin, who are not afraid to talk to the president and tell him what he needs to know. I think that is i think that is maybe an underrated thing. They said about leon panetta that he was an iron fist inside of a velvet glove. You dont have to be the perfect son of a bitch as haldeman was called, you can do it nicely as long as you enforce what you are trying to do. Dickerson and we will be right back. Uh, excuse me, waiter. I ordered the soup. Of course, maam. My apologies. Cmon, caesar. Lets go. Caesar on a caesar salad . Surprising. Excuse me, pardon me. Whats not surprising . How much money matt saved by switching to geico. Could i get my parking validated . Fifteen minutes could save you fifteen percent or more. Dickerson thats it for us today. Thanks for watching. We will see you next week when we will be sitting down with ohio govern john kasich. Face the nation, i am John Dickerson. Captioning sponsored by cbs captioned by Media Access Group at wgbh access. Wgbh. 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