Transcripts for KXJZ 90.9 FM/KQNC 88.1 FM/KKTO 90.5 FM/KUOP 91.3 FM [Capital Public Radio] KXJZ 90.9 FM/KQNC 88.1 FM/KKTO 90.5 FM/KUOP 91.3 FM [Capital Public Radio] 20191202 080000

Well the world's political leaders come up with we will be live with our correspondent in the dress also a vigil is to be held for the victims of Friday's attack at London Bridge We'll look at why this incident came about why it was allowed to happen with a counter-terrorism expert from Zimbabwe we'll hear from the main opposition the Movement for Democratic Change He said police used live ammunition at one of their gatherings and from Malta the prime minister says he's going to step down over the scandal surrounding the murder of the investigative journalist Daphne Carolina get it she is stepping down not until the New Year elect coming up with the support of the business operates to. B.b.c. News Hello this is Gerry summit delegates from almost 200 countries are meeting in Madrid for the latest round of global climate talks and experts argue the world needs to set our plans for dramatic climate action over the next 12 months with the u.n. Secretary general and turn you good Turkish warning that we are now close to the point of no return. Just appointed as Poland's minister for climate is the outgoing president of the conference he said working together was the way to tackle the climate challenge my hope rest in particular with the young people they have the courage to speak up and remind us that we didn't hear it that this planet from our parents and that we need to hand it over to their future generations the transition to climate neutral development this is civilization our challenge that we can overcome only by acting together. Australia's Prime Minister Scott Morrison has announced a new high level taskforce to counter the threat of foreign interference in the country Mr Morrison told reporters that the domestic intelligence agency a 0 would head the task force to detect this rant and prosecute anyone trying to subvert Australia's democracy institutions or way of life fine interference comes from many many different sources and it's important that we have the capacity to deal with it it's an evolving threat and it's also brewing I building an evolving response since we came to government we've put in an additional $3100000000.00 into i.c.a.o. And I have put to deal with the many threats that Australia faces including this one summer says it will shut down government offices for 2 days this week so public sector workers can help with the mass vaccination campaign against measles the epidemic has already killed more than 50 people in the Pacific Island nation most of them children under 4 nearly 200 new measles cases have been recorded in the last 24 hours. Mexico's president dress memoir Lopez Obrador has said reducing crime remains his top priority as he marks his 1st year in office he was addressing thousands of his supporters in Mexico City Well Grant reports on the podium as he's known in Mexico listed what he said were the achievements of his 1st 12 months in education for example he said a further 24000 grants had been awarded to underprivileged young people to attend university however he said it would take another year for what he calls the 4th transformation of Mexico to take shape. His speech came shortly after the number of dead in the northern Mexican state of call Wheeler rose to 21 suspected members of the c.d.n. Cartel attacked the headquarters of the municipal government on Saturday and police responded with heavy gunfire Well the news from the b.b.c. . Unceasingly heavy rain in southern India has led to a loss of lives at least 15 people are feared dead in the southern state of Tamil Nadu buried under a wall that collapsed in the city of corn but all schools and colleges have been closed in the state capital Chennai. The French Interior Ministry says 3 emergency workers have been killed after their helicopter crash late on Sunday near the southern city of mass say they were on a mission over the French Riviera hit by a 2nd consecutive weekend of flooding. Under way Gene pensioner convicted of spying in Russia has told the b.b.c. That he felt pressured into acting as a courier for Norwegian intelligence freedom bag has just returned home after complex negotiations saw him included in a spy swap our Moscow correspondent Sarah Rainsford has been speaking to Mr Berg Freddy Begg spent 2 years in a Russian prison cell now home after a spy swap the Norwegian pensioner has told the b.b.c. He's angry at the intelligence agent who recruited him to travel to Russia and post envelopes packed with cash and spy instructions Mr Begg now knows that was payment for secrets about Russia's atomic submarine fleet and that the f.s.b. Security service here was on to him from the very start the United States has formally requested the extradition of the British tech billionaire Michael Lynch it once the former owner of the data company or Tommy to stand trial in the u.s. On charges including securities fraud and conspiracy Mr Lynch said autonomy sold autonomy to Hewlett Packard in 2011 in an earl fated $11100000000.00 deal h.p. Was hit with a multi-billion dollar write down a year later b.b.c. News. Thank you for the latest stories Hello welcome his news a from the b.b.c. World Service live from London. Thank you for joining us coming on looking at the terror attack that happened here in the u.k. Just a few days ago and asking whether anyone can be completely the radicalized and if they come or what went wrong with this man he was in a. Program a crossing to get the latest from the climate the u.n. Climate convention in Madrid but we go next stay with us it's nice to. Hear some protests in the streets the prime minister of Malta Joseph Muscat is stepping down not now but in a few weeks' time and stepping down over the scandal surrounding the assassination of the investigative journalist Rashmi Carolina Gurlitz he said that he would hand over power next month after his governing Labor Party chooses a new leader now European Parliament delegation is due to arrive in Malta later today to investigate the matter if idea how seriously is taken outside of Malta and Sophie unfelt is the Dutch n.e.p. Who is leading that urgent mission to Malta Welcome to the program so if I can ask 1st off there was great concern about whether or not the prime minister would step down or not now that he said that he is standing down what is the direct purpose of your mission. Well Ok him stepping down in January that is of course a political act that doesn't concern us so much but what does concern is that he will still be the prime minister until then and that means that he will still be. Overseeing the or interfering with the murder investigation and other investigations into corruption and organized crime and what have you and I think it is very important that he recused himself immediately from those investigations stay. Have to be completely independent and there is great concern because we see that people in his direct vicinity are you know persons of interest or suspects in that investigation and that's very interesting you're making I mean that's a dramatic claim to make and you're making it before you even got there investigated so you're doing that on the evidence of what you've already seen. There are people like his his head of staff he scam Barry. Another minister Mr Mitzi who stepped down I mean there are people who have been already. Interviewed by the police sorry. We know that there are a person of interest the police will not say in what capacity Mr Fenech who has been arrested and charged now he has also been pointing the finger at people in the vicinity of the prime minister so whether you know maybe he's got nothing to do with any of that but it's coming so close to him that in order to keep the investigation completely let's say clean he should take his distance from that and no longer I mean Mr Keyes Kember he has been sitting in briefings he got information about the murder investigation he got information from the Secret Service for example and there is really a big cloud hanging over Mr Big question absolutely and as we have to say on every occasion he denies all the allegations that are swirling around and he's stepping down in order to better deal with those he says one thing that I have to ask you this is interesting because we've asked this of journalists on the island as well should we have faith in the investigation one journalist we spoke a little bit earlier said that she thought the police were doing a good job what is your opinion should be have faith that they will get to the bottom of. This is happening but the point is that that has been very difficult to assess I mean you know Normally yes but. There is there are just too many question marks over this investigation and therefore we feel is incredibly important that the police are seen to be totally independent and neutral and in order to make that more credible I think the Prime Minister should keep his distance from the investigation when there is an issue of such strong links and allegations between the elite the governing elite politics business interruption on the world all of this Crikey should we not have noticed that this was going on a multiple 4 because Daschle was saying it was going on and I repeatedly been saying it and there was no response from Brussels do you think they missed it they missed a trick Well 2 things yes to some extent yes but I think Brussels of the European Union has only in recent years come to realize that the rule of law in all the member states is also a matter of European concern we also look at Poland Hungary Slovakia's a case similar to the European Union has recent years really stepped up its involvement in such cases also because if you look at issues like. Money laundering for example big problem in other countries too but also the sales of passports if you if you bring 900000 euros you can buy passport and then you become an e.u. Citizen this is banter and this has been going on for ages as well as a regular you raising and has been that much fuss made about it. You know European parliament has already back in 2014 when it started we have run all the alarm bells interesting Lee I mean to show you also why it is a matter of concern to Europe. A New Zealand businessman a millionaire bought a Maltese passport and that allowed him being in e.u. Citizen then. To fund a campaign during the breaks it referendum so it has a very direct impact on everything so it's a. It's been there and it's something that you're investigating many thanks indeed for joining us Sophie and felt it was Dutch n.e.p. Leading that mission which is on its way to Malta to have a look at how the investigation was supposed the investigation into the investigation of the assassination of Dr Nick Carolina is going on. Its new safe in the b.b.c. World Service thank you for joining us later today here in the u.k. a Vigil will be held for the victims of Friday's London Bridge attack 2 people died and many more were injured as the man behind the killings as men car was shot and died at the scene but questions on are raging about why he was released early from prison when serving a sentence for plotting to bomb London Stock Exchange now the government says 74 people released under similar conditions will have their cases reviewed David Tobar is director of policy at the Quilliam International Foundation it's a counter extremism organization here in the u.k. Let's get your view there David on what this says about how the authorities here in the u.k. Are handling the threat of terrorism when this was a man who had served time in jail and was out he was tagged and he was that hideous irony of this was attending a rehabilitation conference when he launched his murderous campaign. Well the important place the start is with the review conducted by former prison governor Ian ages and which was published in 2016 and what being discovered was that there was a complete systemic failure of the process for dealing with terrorist prisoners from the very moment that they entered prison to the moment they left and from the top of the prison service to the very bottom by the top I mean a failure of leadership a failure to construct effective the radicalization programs down to a failure of prison officers and prison chaplains with sufficient skills to implement them effectively and I'm really a hazard from a year ago which which say is the record number of terrorists being locked up could accelerate radicalization this is a take away from his report so the government had this report what happened it just sit in someone's interest well if you read you know since article in The Times yesterday it's absolutely scathing he said that he met opposition from within the prison service at every level. Some of the recommendations were implemented but it's clear that you know systemic change within an organization isn't something that generally happens within a couple of years. Of the effect of getting it wrong however is that the wrong people get locked up people who lie about variability ation those lies a Failed to be picked up and assessments are not properly made and you seem to be saying it wasn't just a resorting issue it was people actively blocking what the implementation of his ideas over fusing 2 except that there what the problem was as bad as it was that is the nature since account and yes of course there are resource issues as well I mean one of the things that we know about the prison service is that it costs a huge amount of money to lock people up and we spend that money on keeping people incarcerated but what we do with them there in relation to terrorist offenses in particular is woefully substandard So we. What needs to change then I mean clearly a lot of people have been locked up and one of the reasons many are saying that this man was let out was because. Certain people there was that there was a change in how people under his sentence could be let out and because so many people have been locked up indefinitely that is putting too much for its strain on the system so how do we avoid this happening again is that even possible well I'm not a criminal lawyer but. It wasn't simply a desire to let more people out but resulted in a change to be indefinite sentence regime the reason it was changed was because you had you ended up with people who had been sentenced to an indeterminate sentence with a recommend ation that they served a minimum of 12 months still in prison 10 years later because they were unable to fulfill the conditions that had been set for their release so. All criminals sentences are divided into 2 they all have a incarceration. Section and a supervision part and the supervision part is the one that really matters because once a person's been let out and once the decision to let them out is being made it's important that that that decision is made properly and that they can do you need to be supervised for a period of time afterwards so you know there's always going to be an early release see scheme that always has been such a scheme the use of the term early release makes people think that people are being left out scot free after a certain amount of time but actually they're subject to supervision afterwards but what really counts is that supervision and that assessment is effective and it clearly has been David thank you for joining us director of policy aquarium International a counter extremism organization here in the u.k. 17 minutes past the hour if you can in spot Leo Messi proved once again why is the man from Barcelona a late goal for them at Athletico Madrid which puts Basso back on top of La leaguer after a one no when he is one of the contenders of course for the bond or which will be awarded tonight version of Vandyke and crush on Iran I'll die or show amongst the. And as for the men's award the women's award seems almost certain to go to USA star Megan Rapinoe after her achievements at the World Cup but we will see will talk about it tomorrow morning in the English Premier League can let me in our show said he was grateful for the playing time the Nigeria striker the winner in injury time in Leicester City's 21 victory over Everton his 1st appearance of the season in the Premier League they're now Leicester in 2nd place still 8 points behind leaders Liverpool and Luol Deng has been talking to news day about his new job as president of the South Sudanese basketball federation he says he's concentrating on the international teams particularly getting a great team together from the d.s. Press and using that as a platform to build the game across the country thank you Matthew with the sports business now with Phillip Hampshire and obviously we're in the midst of an election campaign here in the u.k. The other big topic breaks it how to actually deal with it hasn't gone away time ticking down to the next deadline Oh yeah there's another 131st of January 2025th it is here on the business desk Yes somewhat distracted by the election a lot of people have been forgetting that of course Rex It is still out there and it might be served up to British businesses sometime in the next coming months of course we have have several final final final deadlines before there's so will they be able to come to some kind of a deal given the time framework that they've got laid out before them right now I spoke to independent columnist Julian Jessop and asked him basically Bracks is going to be a process rather than a single event the the 1st stage is going to be leaving the European Union in the political sense which the current government hopes to happen by the by the end of January but will then be a period transition period where even though the u.k. That longer form a member of the European Union is going to continue to obey the law the rules still effectively be a member of the the cut and hugely and obey the rules of the single market that transition is supposed to end by the end of 20. 20 so that's going to be the next really big deadline there are what happens what part depends on what the trade deal 'd is negotiated may well be a trade deal that starts on position of a close alignment and cooperation but the u.k. Might want to diverging future in which case there might be new negotiations to be had so from the Mentally he's talking to people realistic you've assumed we have a conservative majority government which is not known reasonable assumption given the polls of the stand today but even if we had a single conservative government it's not a unified government on the issue as we seen over the last 2 years well with Bracks it has in met so many other things nothing nothing is certain but I think the timetable is just about achievable I think there are a couple of key points and 1st of all this would be the 1st time that you take government being going into negotiations with a clear majority in parliament and also being led by leavers I think the previous administration out of Prime Minister may was half hearted in pushing for bricks it the other factor is the is the economics of all of this I think both sides both the u.k. And the e.u. Want this done they are starting from a position when the u.k. And the economy is already closely aligned the u.k. Is a far more important trading partner for the rest of the European Union than for example South Korea or Japan or Canada was so there's more incentive to get a good deal done quickly and that sort of combination of political will on both sides and economic imperatives will mean a deal can be done provided it's seen as a hard deadline I mean that would be a risk of further pushing back at the deadline in particular if there were a Labor Government but I think that's a clear deadline has been set there and given the political and economic pressures some sort of deal will be done and the u.k. Will leave the European Union in full in a meaningful sense by the end of 2020 with the free trade deal in place instead. Julian Jessop my function to live I'm sure the business may know the Spanish capital Madrid as we've been telling you our news day today is the venue for the annual United Nations Climate Summit today's launch of cop 25 comes at the end of a year that has seen unprecedented levels of popular protest against the lack of action on environmental issues and with increasing concerns about climate change that sort of graph who is in Madrid welcome mat so you know we're hearing Antonia terrorists say he's going to be heading up this conference we've reached the point of no return some people saying that's alarmist but I guess the the stats would go in his favor on that one with a. Yeah I think clear the view here in Madrid this morning as the delegates stream into the conference center behind me you can probably hear a bit of the hubbub that's going on here if you would be that the science has been very clear and getting more clear over the last couple of years and even in the last week we've had 2 big reports both of them saying that the concentrations of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere have never been higher and the other one saying that the plans of countries to cut their emissions have never been farther short of where they need to be so he's saying something that many people are feeling here I suppose the difficulty of course is that this is a big sprawling process you've got 200 countries here there 21000 people expected here over the next couple weeks trying to get everybody focused on the same thing to make real advances is really difficult and time is very short we've seen that with the Paris agreement it was took many years to negotiate around the country that a sign that they're all here and they're all supposed to put something new on the table before the end of next year the hope is that here in Madrid they can go some steps of the way towards making that it won't be enough but it will be as it possibly will be something positive and what's interesting is a one size fits all approach really doesn't work with this we were hearing earlier in the program when you've got Southeast Asia India sub-Saharan Africa they need to keep power their leaders are saying we want to grow our economy they are gradually moving maybe eventually towards natural gas and Iranian but that's a long way off wires more advanced economies are already there so how do you come up with a solution that will fit individual territories around the world because otherwise there's no point in it is there it's incredibly difficult and that's why you know just 10 years ago you know I just 10 years ago this month I was sitting in Copenhagen and the whole thing were disposed to make a great global deal then all fell apart partly because of those concerns or to raise their particular the rights of developing countries to continue to use the type of fuels they want to take their people out of out of poverty whereas the richer countries are turning around and saying to them stop using coal and other things and that is the fundamental. Divide in this process and it's very difficult to overcome really really difficult the Paris Agreement saw everybody give something to get a little bit of progress and that essentially is where we are up to right now the question really here is and those. That goodwill that was summoned then be summoned again to make things progress here and as you say countries like China the United States Brazil all not pulling their weight according to the u.n. Sector general and that is really hampering the chances of making major progress in what's woods a successful conference look like it's one Tony a terrorist then does he have an idea of the level of commitment he wants from the major players there over the next few days that's a very good question I think that the bottom line would be that the whole thing doesn't collapse because that's always a possibility with so many countries involved he had a big summit in September where he wanted to get countries to commit to net 05205060 or 70 countries did that but they're all smaller developing countries very few of the big boys have done that and that's a real difficulty there the countries like China and the United States resilin as I mentioned they're not coming up to the place in terms of their increasing their offer and their political difficulties that we've seen with the United States will possibly continue to make active and continue to go on that digital guard. Force and that u.n. Conference about 25 past the hour now to Zimbabwe where the opposition m.d.c. Says that the police used rubber bullets and live rounds as well to disperse people attending a tree planting east of the capital Harare in mar on their own Nelson Chamisa the leader of the m.d.c. Was leading an event at a clinic we speak to a spokesman for the m.d.c. Party now Dr and. Who was there at the tree planting 1st off can you just explain what it was that you would doing there. Well look more experienced. Cyclists on. The beginning of this year and this is something that kind of whether we're not used to our present times of course and about. Human activities and he thinks. Everybody could do a little bit too. Mother Vironment And so he's declared December of every year of action on the environment the young leader has about the future so one summer under to plant trees just suppress our planet and you have Lee I mean it's a political act you need permission for that did you have all of the missions in order no we don't need permission to plant trees or Korea activities you need permission to organize a meeting or to have a meeting of people talking about any subject but planting trees you know right. But it's organized by a political a political party for political reasons no it is not and we don't think that the political question but yes even with that in mind we had. In touch with the police went to the local authority a few days before that the night before that and there was agreement that we were not breaking the law and. Before they shot at us they agreed that we had broken a law that you're Ok I mean you know that's why I was asking because I know that there's very strict limits on assemblies of n.b.c. Bemba's in Harare for example and I was just interested what the case was here whether the go wrong when did the firing break out why. We think that. The information that would been given that were only found in Iraq was incorrect but also bond anywhere else in the country where they're actually human beings. We then moved to a 2nd location for planting trees which happened to be in a residential area and I think that's what set them off they decided that they would make an example. Out of just to make sure that we're never going to populated areas rubber bullets used on live rounds as well how were the injuries caused you know what state the people are in who were hit. Well the people that were hit but fortunately those who were mainly get by are above all it's. Victims of their lives alive. But I think that's only about 2 of the officers present where using live live ammunition. Those that were shot are recovering and will you be planting more trees I mean does the plan continue. With the plan will continue Look mother is much more important than the government of the look here and would think that if it's existential and we are going to continue doing that in fact the president did not stop after the shooting yesterday he continued to go to the party offices where you planted some more trees just to make sure that the people I question ties and know that we need to preserve mother as well thank you for your thoughts on that situation m.d.c. Party spokesman. The tree planting just east of. The president President President elect. Many thanks indeed to the speech Tuesday Florence I'm clear getting you farewell join us again tomorrow pleased to distribution of the b.b.c. World Service in the United States is made possible by American Public Media producer and distributor of award winning public radio content engaging audiences creating meaningful experiences and fostering conversations a.p.m. American Public Media with support from participant and Focus Features with dark waters starring Mark Ruffalo and Anne Hathaway based on the explosive New York Times exposé in select theaters November 22nd. Discovery today is all about friends apparently there's an upper limit to the number you can have in the real world and on social media that's the dumb bar number named after Professor Robin Dunbar who spent his career working out the evolutionary origins of our sociability and why we put so much time and effort into keeping other people happy I'm Jim Marquis Lee and after the news from the b.b.c. I'll be talking to Robin Dunbar about his life scientific b.b.c. News when Jerry Smit the latest round of international climate talks is underway in Madrid the meeting comes at a crucial time the u.n. Secretary general has warned humanity is approaching a point of no return and experts say drastic action will be needed over the next 12 months last week the World Meteorological Organization So the level of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere had reached the highest level on record. Australia is launching a new task force to combat foreign political interference last week a Chinese defectors said Beijing was running covert operations in Australia the government in camera has also condemned Beijing's treatment of a Chinese born Australian writer young 1 June who was detained in January for allegedly endangering China's national security. Government offices in Samoa will be closed for 2 days this week to allow staff to help run the vaccination program and get combat ing a measles outbreak more than 50 people have died in the epidemic most of them young children the Mexican president has said addressing the underlying causes and protecting human rights remains the best way to tackle drug gang violence and dress Manuel Lopez Obrador has been in office for a year the past month has seen an increase in gang attacks President Trump won't send lawyers to attend the congressional impeachment inquiry against him they would have been questioned by members of the House of Representatives but the White House said the hearing wouldn't be fair at least 15 people are feared to have been killed interventional rains in southern India they were buried under a wall that collapsed in the city of Qom the top and they've also been heavy downpours in southern France 3 emergency workers were killed on Sunday when their helicopter crashed near Marsay b.b.c. Needs. This is discovery from the b.b.c. I'm Jim are clearly and today I'm talking to a leading scientist about their life and work Welcome to the life scientific Robin Dunbar has spent most of his life trying to answer a deceptively simple question why do humans and other primates invest quite so much time and mental effort on their social lives how and why did we evolve to be such a sociable species he spent 6 years together with his wife living with 500 year larger monkeys in a remote region of the Ethiopian Highlands observing their social life was like watching the most exciting soap opera he says when funding for field work dried up he turned his attention to humans who could be studied in the local park He's perhaps best known for Dunbar's number the idea that there's an upper limit to the number of meaningful social relationships we can maintain an idea which seems to hold true on social media as well Robin Dunbar professor of evolutionary psychology at Oxford University welcomes a lot of scientific thinking it's striking Robin just how many different approaches you've adopted to trying to understand the social lives of primates that's true and I blame that on the fact that I began life as a philosopher and knowing nothing about science. Things called disciplinary boundaries just sort of trod shamelessly over people's. Territory unwittingly but that's what made it actually very exciting but you know if you look back at my early intellectual career it really started with philosophy and that was the only thing I was interested in and because I happened to get a place in Oxford and you can't do foster So you have to do something else and I chose for us in psychology is the least bad option not like he was that 1st step into science yes yes quite literally because I was not in the slightest bit interested in so. At all that age and didn't think I could particularly do it but psychology has sometimes been referred to as the layman's science because it there you can do some very technical stuff in there say neuroscience something but you're led into it a lot of easily understood standard way about the social world of life and at that time for whatever reasons is still a mystery to me the 1st year of that psychology course was taught by this all of us by Nikko 10 Berg and the very famous syllogism Nobel Prize winner for his studies on naturalistic behavior and I guess he was the 1st scientist to study animals in their natural habitat pretty much I mean his big claim to fame I guess was that he sort of invented field experiments actually doing experiments in the field on home wild animals that you know that introduced me to a field which I had absolutely no knowledge of because despite having grown up in Africa I didn't really know much about wild animal behavior I knew about wild animals and I saw a lot of them but I didn't really know how they behave and what they did but here was this sort of whole branch of science that was emerging in the early sixty's. Doing just this how did you get to go out on your 1st field trip when it was actually a university expedition we went out and studied baboons in anything for 3 months in the middle of the Ethiopian desert. And that was just through a contact somebody who said yes yes this is a viable project you can do it and that really introduced me to your field work on foot in the bushes but you were still to doing your philosophy degree at this point presumably not many other students on your philosophy course wanted to go out to Africa to study. But 2 of us doing the same course did go doing this psychology and philosophy course and I think probably by that stage we both. Faltering on the philosophy so. You didn't see yourself as a career then after that had become a technical philosophy is too difficult for ordinary mortals you must have got the bug because then for your Ph d. Us then we went back again and again to Ethiopia as it were to study the rather spectacular monk is Boone's up in the high mountains of northern Ethiopia and spending a long time living amongst these monkeys yes this was all out in the remote very remote place. Whole day's ride on a horse from the nearest road in one field trip you spent was it something like 18 months out there is that is that yes it was stretch in one stretch but we would sort of go and get supplies from the nearest city which was a day and a half journey away at once a month perhaps and infrequently as that and the rest of the time we did what we could on cans of corned beef I can do a very nice book on 99 ways to go on the. Do you look back on those those times years ago with fondness or was it sort of an uncomfortable of living all field work is hard work it's brutal at times. But I don't have a sort of love hate relationship with it partly because perhaps because I grew up in Africa so I liked being in those kind of environments at the same time you know it was there for a purpose they were there to collect data. Which one could sort of tease apart and analyze and figure out what was going on so there was an objective and that keeps you going through these long and very tedious and exhausting days tramping around after after monkeys I think 500 a lot of monkeys are they quite frightening creatures the monkeys themselves look rather like the little lions actually they have this huge main the males have this huge mane and tufted tail Yeah. Look quite spectacular is there bounding around on rocks and the main is floating in the breeze. There are about the size of perhaps in our station that was a little bit smaller than a house I think if but big enough and you know they live in these horrible groups well male with several females and their offspring and then the groups will gather together in these enormous on the flat plateaus of the Ethiopian high and so we're up here about 10000 feet altitude and they used to engage in lots of fights amongst themselves but you could walk among the these huge herds of animals really without even disturbing them paid no attention to you George just became another part of the. Did you ever feel threatened by the monkeys. When the problem they have is these male harm holders eventually get challenge by another male from outside the right who tries to take over the harm and that ends up with an almighty battle between the 2 males until one of them gives up and I was collecting data on a particular event of this kind going on and. My shadow as I walked around the harm passed over a juvenile which was feeding the back to me and it sort of startled for a moment and the male just heard the gas from them in for tea and the male just something because he was so tense and upset some switch went in his head and he just came for me and I ended up throwing everything I had at him like my tape recorder my binoculars and eventually I decided he was not to stop I fled ignominiously. Well I mean jungle described have chimps embraced cased each other as well as you know engaging a lot of trickery and deception did you see that sort of sneaky behavior among the a lot of monkeys I remember one particular instance with a couple of juveniles the younger one older one. With the mother and the mother had put her head down as they often do on the ground as if her bottom in them was half asleep and the angle on it being grooming the little the older one just slipped her hand in front of her sibling and pushed it quietly out of the way and took over and she knew full well that if Mom had been watching though to be in trouble of. Taking over the little ones but it is those kind of very very sad and you can see I actually got a photograph of that and you can see her with her head tilted back she's watching mothers head very carefully to make sure she doesn't see what was the the central question you were hoping to answer. I think it was really just trying to understand the complexity of the social world he had a species living in very very large highly structured herds which were built around kind of families of all male and maybe 5 or 6 females and their offspring but living in these large complex societies and the question was and that's unusual in primates to have such big social groupings mostly there under 50 really. Trying to understand why this particular species should have that kind of social system and how their ecology filtered into that to act as the sort of drivers and maybe constraints Well after a decade of field work studying these monkeys in Ethiopia studying antelopes in Kenya even feral goats on the Isle of rum you then became a journalist so what why that switch Well I had been on a research fellow ship for many years and when I came to the end of it I just happened to hit the great Thatcherite free in the early eighty's when the government effectively closed all the funding to the universe and it was simply no jobs available you know the only jobs that were going to be advertised were ones which are absolutely. Essential for the running of a break of course and so I fell into a sort of bottomless pit and I always like writing so I did that one joint that I mean that was great fun because I got into doing articles on all sorts of weird things like welding science. How easy was it to adjust to a desk job back in back in Britain having that time immediately after that field work period you know it was really essential or it did cost me a job at a university which will remain name on the grounds of the Dean said After my interview. He saw. I was presenting myself as someone with a Santa Clause bag of Sec of data on my back and it was clearly meant I was not going to do anything ever again. Because you just had data to keep you busy for the rest of your career you know what are you going to do next expecting me to say an experiment on this and experiment on that I suspect and I said well I've got loads and loads of data it's going to take me years to publish most of this stuff and it has. The time you doing that alongside your work for New Scientist Yes as much as I could I mean the problem was you know you'd literally sweat blood and tears when you're doing field work of this kind tramping about and in very difficult and exhausting conditions in the bush and I was really not going to waste all this stuff particularly if a job came up ever. At the time and some somebody else less deserving got it so I have so it's going to give people this data writing up going which I did as much as I could until something came out and something did something and I have a lot of disillusioned young researchers might be reassured to hear that you got your 1st permanent lectureship quite late on in life very late have I was 40. The 1st real job 1st real job as my father said. I'm one of the 1st things you did was d. Bunk the so-called hygiene hypothesis so can you explain what that is so this is kind of an explanation for why monkeys in particular spend so much of their time grooming each other as they leaf through each other's fur and the conventional wisdom of the time soon this was literally just a hygienic service that is being provided and they do they remove bits of leaf and thorns and birds and all these kind of things spending so much time watching a species really spent an inordinate amount of its day grooming and geladas because of the size they grew spend something like a 5th day in and say show grooming that this is really about social bonding I mean no animal needs to spend that amount of time cleaning it and I was kind of trying to figure out how you could test between these 2 alternative hypotheses and thought What Well you know if it's the hygiene hypothesis then the amount of grooming that different species should do should correlate with this area of century body size is a big monkey will be taken longer to to be groomed a much more Yes exactly and this is looking across species right so small species should spend less time grooming right big species to spend more time growing but conversely if it really is do a social bonding of social groups then time spent grooming would be correlated with social group size and so it turned out it was current for the social group size not with body size it will so it so a large herd of several 100 they would each spend more time groom each other than a small group yes indeedy you published a paper Robin Dunbar in 1992 on the social brain hypothesis we. Showed that there was a correlation between brain size and the number of social relationships that the monkeys could maintain How was this paper 1st received. With slight puzzlement I suspect. Because it did come very much out of the blue I think it did kind of excited lot of interest actually partly because it was so leftfield I mean I think what surprised people actually more than anything else was the might be some reason that wasn't pure ecology determine social group size so you can contrast the dogs and the cats here. The cats all the cats are completely a social There is only one social species of the cat family and that is the life everybody else is completely solitary their brain size hasn't increased. And iota right over 25000000 years of evolution the dog family has gone up a bit because the dog family is in Contras unique actually their family is 100 percent monogamous pair bonded monogamy every single one of them that Jack was the walls everybody and you can just see that up tilt in the course of their evolutionary history where brain size is increasing to handle that doesn't go anywhere near the increase that you get say in the elephant families through time at the primate family the Anthropoid primates who turn the monkey snakes who kind of skyrockets in right them save them tell us a brain size as they're evolving the much much more intensely bonded social groups and species of mammals and the reason why that's evolved is because it gives apes and evolutionary advantage to be able to coordinate their actions stick together better defend themselves against predators well so on yes so you have to remember that the reason almost all animals living groups is predation race so basically all this complex social behavior that we have as human beings basically evolved so we didn't get 8 of us there we go see I thought evolution biology was nice and simple right then Robin Dunbar Let's move to another interesting species humans at what point and why did you switch your attention from animal behavior to the study of humans. Well this this was yet another serendipitous acts and actually of being caught in the middle of a deep funding crisis for the university as when there was very very little funding available through the Research Council certainly not for all this sort of nonsense fieldwork lazing about and we have. But it basically meant that all the field projects we've been doing cheap as they are on the credibly cheap to run really just couldn't couldn't be. Of course I also had teaching obligations which meant I couldn't swallow after such pain is known as students. And I just occurred to me that. This is London central London you know whatever 10000000 people milling around in the place someone could do pretty much the same kinds of things or at least asked the same kinds of questions of humans among whom you lived as we had done with monkey is feral goats what have you in the world and they had the added advantage as you could ask them questions sometimes quite useful so this launched me off into a long period of studying human behavior but of course it really was was I think reinforced by the social brain story which kind of minnow sort of made me think well you know I wonder what kind of group size the social brain relationship to monkeys names would predict for human and you came up with this idea which is now known as the Dunbar number and you can look it up on Wikipedia and it is that there's this upper limit to the number of meaningful relationships that humans can maintain I have that you have to get through it somehow to derive it it was a one of those rare occasions where unlike physicists biologists make a prediction they have some. Right or the prediction is so outrageous that when it turns out to be right everybody is incredibly surprised it was literally a prediction of the back of the equation for so size plotted against neocortex size which is the thinking part of the brain in primates now that gives a very reasonable prediction for group sizes and primates eyes turned out to be much more complex than they originally and dissipated but if you see where the Apes lie for example then the prediction you get for humans is this figure of 150 there's a lot of very. Realty round that. In reality as well as distinctly and the variability is somewhere between about a $1250.00 s. And that turns out to be a century the difference between extroverts and introverts masing enough now that 150 which is what's become known as Dunbar's number. Is simply one of a series of numbers so if you look at your social network it's actually structured as a series of layers and these layers reflect the quality of relationships so you have a look or of 5 at the very center where you can I call them the shoulders to cry on relationships really your intimate friends that you go to for support when you motion support financial support maybe whatever when you need it you go to a group outside they're about 15 and a group of 50 group of 150 and this team all is beyond 150 but that structure marries exactly the pattern of group sizes and priming is incredible and but the number among humans is bigger than some promise so primates don't go about 50 because we have bigger brains because we have and we are able to cope with that many relationships and of course we should say that as you say there's a difference between introverts and extroverts this number is an average instead of sticks you know it's not this is a population average Yes it turns out that this these numbers are quite robust across tribal groups and cultural groups as it were so it not only is that our personal social group size it also turns out to be the structure of hunter gatherer social communities they live in communities between one and 200 average very close to 150 again with these kind of internal structures to them we see these numbers still historically they are the average size of English villages in the Doomsday Book a 1000 years ago and these numbers reappear in all sorts of contexts and guises is there any sense that you're looking at these different in different contexts looking at different communities but there's a danger that you're finding this number because it's the number you're looking for so you're sort of looking at groups that have that particular size anyway that numerology is a great game to play to me should know that physics is all about your. There is a sense of that I mean we don't go out of our way looking for numbers Regionally I kind of went well 150 that sounds very small have unearthed could we test it I'm a kind of back engineer did a bit really by saying well the place to look must be small scale hunter gatherer societies because that's how we spend 95 percent of our evolutionary history and so I sort of thought well you know the answer is to literally back engineer this and see if any of these groupings comes anywhere close to $150.00 and it turns out the community size does and very interesting this idea of the layers you know the in a circle of 5 friends then sort of then a wider circle of friends and colleagues and all the way up to 150 and how would you describe the group of 50 for example I'm trying to sort of put that in the category of big party relationships so if you decide to have a weekend barbecue you would probably draw most of the people from within that lead if you decided to go out for a set or even with a couple of others who have a small dinner party they would come from the 15 lair within the so-called sympathy group I'm starting to think of my own social groups and it all fits it's not very scientific. Well this is part of the problem is is having realized there are these patterns there is get inundated by people with more and more examples and it is quite extraordinary I mean they just their numbers turn or if you are. Quite remarkably set and lo and behold when we collate a data from big Facebook data say Twitter data looking at the conversations going on within Twitter accounts between the 2 to ratty as it were. And a huge telephone data set and talking billions of course. And you look at the frequencies of postings of the frequencies of phone calling as you can see these layers beautifully laid out there I mean really good. With the advent of social media there's a huge amount of data compared with looking at a few 100 monkeys interacting so how do you go about collating analyzing all this data mathematically Well the short answer Jim is I don't I get somebody like you to do this right this. This very clearly. This is where we get back into physics really because the only people who have the skills the mathematical skills like of using skills to do it are either computer scientists perhaps better still statistical physicists because this is very much in their kind of church and it's kind of interesting what's happened to statistical physicists I think in the last 20 years because they've little on social network analysis as a kind of Bonanza or area that they can apply their technical skills to and they've got a tool kit. Which is just amazing and I kind of in really have really enjoyed working with physicists actually on this because and I just like the attitude which is well let's just assume these are golf balls these are molecules whizzing around. And you know and I think that in some ways it's one of the joys is you can take something from a completely different discipline and apply and I think the math there. And of course it's the math that really apply to do different fields because the as it were the criteria same but nope you need somebody with these technical skills who can process these huge quantities of data I should just stress that these numbers that you're talking about are just population averages. Well the question is Where do you sit relative to the average I think very low profile you try I think you're too busy. Looking at other people's lives to have time to have a big social. Clearly Well Robin Dunbar from living with monkeys in the wilds of Ethiopia to analyzing social network data on Facebook there's been quite a journey it's been a very fun journey I have to say but it has I mean it's I never thought from a 1000000 years that when you're doing this sort of stuff and behind it all seems to me you've been trying to answer just one really one question why are primates including humans so sociable do you think you've finally found a satisfactory answer. I think so it's there are probably still lots of bits and pieces to work out but I think finally really after that well almost half a century of research I finally have a feeling that we've understood what's going on and what it is they have a single story here is a how complex some of this social world really is and yet if you tear away at it and use lots of different approaches to kind of triangulate your knowledge as it were it often turns out to be surprisingly simple Robin Dunbar thank you very much for sharing your life scientific impression. RINGBACK From Sacramento State business Capital Public Radio 90.9 k. X j z f m n h t Sacramento 913 k. You a piece Stockman Esto 90.5 k. K. T. O' ta City Reno and 81 k. Q. In sequence and. You can find our complete schedule of on our programs plus audio streams not available on the air at Cap radio dot org While you're there it's easy to donate to the station that brings you commercial free news and music around the clock. Coming up after the news on the b.b.c. World Service it's a special edition of hard talk with me Stephen Sackur I've been traveling around Zimbabwe as the country struggles to cope with the impact of drought and longer term climate change crops a failed hydro power is down and the taps of run dry also at risk is in Bob ways wildlife population animals and people are now in a desperate competition for resources at some point with his diary from if you know we ended if you know where. In the eastern part of the country was killed bin 11 the community chased us away there almost has turned us we had to go through it's additionally dead to say we are here these are the problems that are facing we must and want to give that we my supporters have that hard talk on the road in Zimbabwe after the news. B.b.c. News Hello this is Gerry Smit the latest United Nations Climate Summit has opened in Madrid with warnings that the coming year will be critical in the battle against rising temperatures ahead of the meeting the u.n. Secretary general and Tanya good Terry has warned that the world is at the point of no return he told the b.b.c. The global response to climate change to date has been utterly inadequate but McGrath reports as the diplomats begin their talks a report from cvs the Children estimates that 33000000 people in eastern southern Africa have been driven just hunger by what they term climate shocks drugs floods and the impacts of the strongest ever cycle and the continent to limit these consequences in the future experts argue the world needs to set out plans for a dramatic climate action during the next 12 months this meeting in Madrid is the 1st step on that route China says is returning 18 against Washington's backing of the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong Chinese Foreign Ministry spokeswoman said The decision was in response to what she called the unreasonable behavior of the u.s. Side Robin brand is in Shanghai what we have are some counter measures that Beijing have announced today firstly a request made by u.s. Warships but also u.s. Aircraft to stay in Hong Kong for rest and recuperation while they are going to be reviewed that sounds to me like they are de facto being put on the whole but now that is rich in symbolism not much more to that though secondly of some more substance what we are getting is news that 5 u.s. Based non-governmental organizations are focused on human rights are going to be sanctioned apparently by Beijing Australia's Prime Minister Scott Morrison has announced a.

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