Site also on the n.p.r. News. Radio. Coming up after the news on the b.b.c. World Service is Hala talk with me. In Ankara my guest in this exclusive interview is the Turkish foreign minister. As take his offensive against what it calls Kurdish terrorists in northern Syria continues the Syrian government backed by Russia has sent troops to fight alongside Kurdish fighters is radically changing the dynamics on the ground after the u.s. Pullout the aim of this operation to eliminate the terrors of the other side of the border also our operation is aiming to enforce the. Integrity of Syria and these terrorists organization is aiming to do i country I mean Syria to Turkey integrity is so important for our region and we are very much committed to it that's the Turkish foreign minister. On Khalid talk after the news . This is the b.b.c. News Hello I'm Jonathan Izod there's been sporadic shelling and gunfire in northern Syria a day off to Turkey accepted the u.s. Demand for a temporary halt to its offensive against Kurdish targets a senior Kurdish commander has said his forces will accept the agreement in the area between Russell i n n. Is on the Syrian Turkish border the sound of machine gunfire and shelling has been heard intermittently around Wrestle lying smoke is rising from part of the Syrian town which has been a major goal of the Turkish offensive a war monitoring organization is reporting relative calm elsewhere events today should indicate whether the temporary cease fire will take hold Ankara has agreed to suspend its military operation for 5 days and make that permanent if the Kurdish fighters retreat from a swathe of territory in Syria along the Turkish border the Kurdish commander General resident called Danny said his forces would accept the agreement but only in the area invaded by the Turks he said a ceasefire for the rest of the border zone would have to be discussed there have been intense gun battles in the Mexican state is similar to the security forces seized some of the jailed drug baron Joaquin El Chapo Guzman there was panic in parts of the city of cognac and when heavily armed members of the Sinaloa cartel exchanged fire with police and troops the Mexican authorities later told news agencies they had released over the Lopez to avoid further violence un Grillo is a journalist in Mexico City one story is that the police and soldiers were doing up well on the street they were attacked by gunfire responded by that's not gone far into our house and then there was surrounded by the cartel gunmen and gave up their prisoner video because man has become one of the consuls leaders following the extradition of his father to the United States to stand trial 2 years ago. The general strike is taking place across Catalonia in Spain called by supporters of Catalan independence public transport and government services a shot and protesters from around the region are marching on bass Alona has Damien Grammaticus this general strike is the culmination of a week of protest in Catalonia all week they have been clashes between independence supporters many of them young students and police fires have been set in the streets and police have used rubber bullets and baton charges to disperse the protesters the trouble began on Monday when Spain's supremum Court handed out lengthy jail sentences to 9 senior Catalan politicians 2 years ago they had organized a referendum in defiance of a ban on such a vote by Spain's central government the un refugee agency says it's unable to resettle the majority of migrants stuck because transit center in the Libyan capital Tripoli they've been holding protests this week but the u.n. H.c.r. Says it has nowhere to take them most of them are from Africa and left their countries in the hope of reaching Europe this is the world news from the b.b.c. The United States has imposed tariffs on 7 and a half $1000000000.00 worth of goods from the e.u. In response to a long running dispute over the European aerospace company Airbus French wine Spanish olives and Scottish whisky are among the targeted goods they could see price rises of 25 percent in the u.s. The World Trade Organization allowed the tariffs after finding that continued to receive state funding which had been ruled illegal. The European Commission president Jean-Claude Juncker has warned that it will be extremely complicated if Britain's parliament fails to back the Bracks it deal agreed on Thursday Kevin Connolly reports from Brussels even as e.u. Leaders attempt to focus on the prospects for future expansion on the problems of agree in a new budget and Moyes will be turning to what will happen this weekend at Westminster there is a huge appetite in Brussels to get Briggs it done and prevent it draining the E.U.'s political energy that explains young junkers declaration that a deal has been concluded that leaves no reason for further prolonging Asian but it will be Mr younger who decides what to do it all is Johnson can't get his deal through the House of Commons that will be up to the 27 leaders and convene a the president of the European Council Donald Tusk President Trump has been accused of a phenomenal breach of his duty to defend u.s. Security after one of his top officials acknowledged that military aid was withheld from Ukraine for political reasons a prominent Democrat involved in the impeachment inquiry a Mr Trump Adam Schiff said things gone from very bad to much worse for the president earlier the White House chief of staff make a move any money was held back to persuade Ukraine to investigate alleged interference in the last us presidential election a u.s. Basketball official has revealed that China asked for the sacking of the general manager of the team over comments he made the Beijing did not like Adam Silver of America's National Basketball Association said the Chinese government wanted Darell Mori fired after he caused anger in Beijing by tweeting support for pro-democracy protesters in Hong Kong b.b.c. Needs. Welcome to hold talk on the b.b.c. World Service with me. In my guest in this exclusive interview is the Turkish foreign minister. Turkey's being condemned traits offensive in northern Syria but it says it will press on with its operations to what it describes as terrorists hundreds of civilians and fight is reportedly being killed and there are accusations of war crimes creating instability in the region foreign minister. Welcome to halt talk Thank you President says he will not listen to international criticisms about the Turkish military operations inside northern Syria until victory is achieved what does victory look like to tacky Well if you kick a white beaches a terrorist organization posing a threat to our national security therefore the aim of this operation to eliminate the terrors of the other side of the border or clean this area from the terrors also. Aiming to enforce. The off Syria and these terrorists organization is aiming to divide contrie I mean Syria to get the is so important for our region and we're very much committed to it and we need to also liberate the local people from the oppression of blood the terrorist organization and also laid the ground for do one and 3 and safe return to refugees or displaced people not on the refuges from Turkey but I.D.P.'s ridden Syria and also refugees who had to flee to Iraq or other on the right to say you've set out what you want to do and the idea is to create of influence which is 400 kids to meet his long 32 kilometers deep. Have you got fast not done it. What's the time for this is the this is the 9th they don't do operation I can't say it has being very well. Be determined and already did 2 major cities have been cleaned from these terrors but going to be clean these areas from terrors and then we create the safe zone and then we'll leave the management both to a safe song to do local people in different cities you know President Trump in Alaska that has been leaked said to President. Like the devil don't try to be the tough guy responsible for the deaths of thousands of people Mike Pence the vice president might pay the u.s. Secretary of state talking to them what's your message to the Americans rather we have already given our answer to that kind of. Old language that is unacceptable for the American people. And so we have given our answer through this operation and President Obama has been also emphasizing that you cannot negotiate with terrors and internationally arrest warrant is also therefore this one of the white b.g. Leaders ekk so is the take. Militant group which is considered to be a terror group by the United States and the Europeans and they are the white p.t. The p.y.t. Of all of the Syrian rights just to clarify that right and President Trump emphasized that. War stand by ISIS for us both of them last say both of them are terrorist organization so want to be have been saying to our American ally is very clear do not engage this terrorist organization do not for a wired reference and we have tried to read them to create these saves on together but it didn't work it was a just delaying tactic. Yes and even during these efforts they continued providing reference to this that it was organizations and they promised to read the role of these y.p. Few idea elements from this region they have and so what we have been saying is that they should read the road these white b.g. Elements from the area that you have mentioned the. Integrate Well we know of course that the Americans have withdrawn that 1000 special forces from the region but teacher you see that with drool from the Turkish point if you as a green light for your operations and the Americans while President inform President of and Saudi inform President Trump before we start the operation here on the questions about about dietician what really happened a diversion to prisons and also in determines and president actually said and the enemies all of you will take the responsibility in the operation area if there you know for Asian area so that now there be throwing Army troops are withdrawing and this is what Americans friends I've been telling us and also what ground but that's not really the case is it might be the u.s. Secretary of state has said categorically no green light was given to key you've got President Trump himself signing an executive order to impose economic sanctions on saying things on Twitter like I'm going to destroy the tell you she cornered me and so on and say pull the Americans won't reach to it's I have to follow all of president trumps in 5 minutes he has been having different through. Different things and also on Turkey and this is also actually another picture that different voices different positions are coming from the United States because of the differences between the strays and then the State Department Pentagon and this and that so it also affects us that's why I have to say but we haven't the green light all. Anybody else including the United States really tried to war and unfortunately they did in their commitments and that's why we actually decided to start this operation read decided to leave 10 months ago roughly and then President ask us to leave since they are leaving not to start again and then he proposed us to work together to create this safe zone and be tried. Before Americans read the others by the Unfortunately we had to start this operation but you know you say that you are confused by what messages are coming out from the United States that it's quite clear on this question of economic sanctions that they were serious Steve nuking the treasury secretary in the United States says these are very powerful sanctions we hope we don't have to use them but we could shut down the Turkish economy if we need to we've got members of Congress Nancy Pelosi saying you know we are going to be looking at tougher sanctions your economy can't withstand that it's very very fragile even if the those statements it has been but is they will be have taken measures but. Our nation security concern ease of all of everything for us for nation deadfall this is a legitimate security concern and of course expect. To recognize this and to respect this and if they prefer to continue this language of threatening frankly speaking not afraid of this and not to be know that if you cannot eliminate these terrors to date. The other side of the border in defeat should. Be much more difficult and maybe it's not be possible. More important than the sanctions right now and this. Is widely important for us that's why that is a unique to read into country as Robert and we are not afraid of the sanctions and president wanted you to meet. That meeting still going ahead well he invited President John repeat to leave the forum as well and President accepted this invitation so it depends on the relations and if frankly speaking if that is then the sanctions on President or his family it doesn't make sense to go to the United States or at the invitation is so Riyadh considered Ok are you talking about allies who are your allies now because the whole dynamics have changed because if your intervention we've seen the Syrian cuts tough to Damascus for Syria of course President Bashar al Asad backed by Russia said that effectively puts you what wall with Syria tell some states you know why Syria are coming to their territory in trade with the and we are just fighting terrors and you have the right in a thing from the international lawyer and charges if you throw out the goal of the u.n. Charter and there are many un Security Council resolution on counter-terrorism so also really have other agreements to do or Syria so right. Emanated from all these done Michelle law and agreements and there is a Lucian's there for fighting terrorism the thing is. NATO ally why some of through NATO reacted this time and only branch operation also targeted why p.g.p. Key and. The rest and the side off the table now it's strange that is change you know was changed because the Syrian Kurds are now in alliance with Damascus with Arabs. And not because of theft and now their reactions. They got to because some of the countries our allies including France have been trying to do why Syria and to create terror state in that part but just sticking to the point of how the dynamics have changed the Russians have said very specifically the special envoy for Syria for most. That it would seem to be unacceptable and we would not allow it of course that the Syrians and the Texas troops to engage in any kind of military intervention it seems like it's Russia that's ready to tell what's going on on the ground Russia is also promising us that there will be nor p.k. Or white b.g. In other side of the border and President Putin invited President Abdurrahman to Sochi and you'll be going to 22nd of this month. For us it doesn't matter who is on the other side Russia or regime or United States out expectation is very clear they shouldn't be one single Tatars on other side of the meters or does that mean now where do you stand with Bashar Asad politically do you accept him as the status quo now has to be maintained he's now you know no they are not be believed that Bashar Assad can no longer unite the country but we are at the same time working together with friends Astana go to church to reach a political settlement. Will be the last thing one and the establishment of the constitutional economy the is a very crucial step to the 1st meeting really because. Of. The us for we have nor failed to build relations with Assad but Russia and Iran are the government turns or for. Well I just read you and the other got on turns off to a position if that is any message sometimes you go through many very major Now the opposition to the Sharon acid in the case of the Syrian Kurds and now fighting alongside to making troops you know when it comes to ration on the ground is over these enormous medical very very bad it like a good. Sort of going to like guys and why p.g. They fought each other but they sold weapons to each other they provided food and they were trying to make it better to get Russian foreign minister said again after all of your counterpart just said that he will mediation talks between Ankara and Damascus have you discussed this with him while day have been combing messages from Damascus to uncut and why so. And nevertheless to eliminate the headers and terrorist organization in that part of the northern eastern part of Syria I mean and. Spend some efforts to take them out and together with the regime or read others of you don't mind and of course we will see if Syrian Arab troops are in control of your border area that's acceptable to. Force those kinds of forces or. Regime. Through only Saddam part of. His own you and you have got to do so on our board yet. That you have if that was in the hands of the Syrian Arab states. The presence of white p.g.p. Kick a key for us they shouldn't be dead otherwise you know if the regime is also Saddam part of the Baath and they are staying there and we haven't had any problem with them as they don't support predators or I don't mind the regime forces. Not to fight the regime will Russia. Not the Kurdish militants p a k y k u terrorists. Harry Reid as you call it goes and no I'm not mixing the Kurdish people in the terrorists although actually they're all Kurdish representatives who say that is exactly what he's doing for example. A Syrian says that there's an ethnic cleansing campaign at the hands of one and actually this distinction that you've just made about no where any attacking Kurdish terrorists as you put it is more than that well we have more than 300000 Syrians coach forced by p.g.p. Key and we have been hosting them so they should be able to return as roles this is another ethnic cleansing This is a fight against terrorist organization and clean the area everybody should be included to do any governance over there and do more than 300000 about 350000 Syrian Kurds really go back to are not are called Bani or their homes so this is another effort to change the demographic of the country or that the region actually why p.g.p. Took a terrorist organization has changed let me put She's what's going on on the ground and it's really causing an alarm because there are huge accusations that Putin rights abuses going down I just give you one example the former British foreign secretary David Miliband who's now head of the International Rescue Committee which operates on the ground in northern Syria he said was crime succumbing to pause there are war crimes against civilians a grave danger to children as a result this is not a safe so that you want creating but the killings and this is on I have I have to disagree and what you what he has said is unacceptable for us and there are some claims sometimes but you see the ground as well Coville. The spokes person for the United Nations human rights organization he says we thought which is immediately to don't an impartial transparent and independent investigation and to apprehend those who are responsible some of whom should be identifiable from the video footage they themselves shed. And that is that I do exactly what I see is about 10 women politician a Syrian cut politician woman who. You know exactly what I was trying to say that is that there are 2 program that yes but nevertheless the claim is we have to investigate but as they provide evidence I have to reject this is the part of to provoke on that I have have been trying to explain we've had about 10 stright targeting the city of Ralston lane and surrounding areas which led to about 19 people being killed humanitarian convoy you know. Which 19 Why do you i.p.g. Elements Rio I mean look operation in New York looting something of an eye opener ation has been actually. Limited. Old Soul measure Ok and targeting. But on the terrors and terrors elements and we have enough intelligence from the ground and you know look they used Church for instance with their snipers to attack us they were expecting us to attack these church we didn't do you. Also civilians as shelter and we didn't attack this. Conducting this operation very careful right now you mean see billions known Syrians. Actually affected Ok you have been muted if you bring. That organ you drink it. Sometimes And as I say so-called Islamic state there are about 12000 I say hi nothing to do with it I know I say so I mean speech I know I know so cold I said as I'm somebody who doesn't the right time but I knew you because I'd like to say. That I am on the line but there are about $12000.00 ISIS fighters held in Kutch controlled areas in sites north and Syria and President said on the 14th of books a bill would ensure that no ISIS fight is named North East and Syria but that's not the case is it I mean they have nothing that you have to actually have the truth I have my frayed I have to remind you of this I've done said. These prisons that more than 1000 tires are dead there was no elements why because why p.g.p. K.k. Tenners releases them therefore I am not responsible for those terrors that y.p. Actually released but they are fine so I sing you they say so they know that now this is just narrative is it I get it just. All you are saying they are only this fight is a group that you can never lie or terrorist organization in our fight against I know that that is organization so you have don't you remember how they supported those diet elements in Rocca to leave rocked by buses should they write them now buses I mean why p.g.p. Could go right. Now to Rocca What's the situation now is a former u.s. Defense secretary Massey says it's absolutely a given the ISIS will come back they're on the case and never let Dyess come back because 1st on foremost. Enemy and nobody can be sure read the doors terrorists or including the foreign fighters fighters will be able to reach their source countries but they will teach her. So I cannot let them go I have been so you would hope that I had been fighting had been fighting for many years refugees you have about 3700000 Syrian refugees particular objectives with creating this is if to send a good number of the Syrian refugees back otherwise we have sort of threatening remarks from President that he would just open the gate for the Syrian refugees is that what it is now that look already 307 to 2000 Syrian refugees run back to 2 area us previously gleaned from the terrorist elements from diaries and elements are getting well and truly and safe thing. And no. Actually help those displaced persons who want to go back well and truly nobody can force them to these safe zones but not what us what the e.u. Is saying that they will not provide anything to them it has been a big burden on our shoulders and what the president of Iran said is very clear Ok if you don't want to support this wall untrue and safe return if they don't want to support them then you should take them to your countries and take care all right they have made that you can use this as a threatening language development you've. Got your position nor It's not yet fair or not all right you've taken the military route indeed what you describe is the terrorist problem you don't have peace talks there's a peace process which broke down in 2015 look at the end of the day you're going to have to go back to the negotiating table to find a solution may actually incursions like this one not provide the answer while saying that yes retry does as well but. Terrors on the Misuse that process and read on our side we did what we have to do now nobody none of our allies is accepting this reality there p.k. Didn't lay down the plans but they abused this process and they increase their presence and they actually try to create their phones reading Turkey so they means to this opportunity and what they what they what they have to do it is that they should lay did not lay down their weapons they should stop this terrorism and I don't I don't care about their ideology but also in Syria they shoot 1st as a 1st step they should get out from this safe zone and then they should lay down their weapons and then they should stop their efforts to do white Syria is fair enough is fair a foreign minister have a shelter thank you very much indeed and considering it all it's all coming all the way to run for. Distribution of b.b.c. World Service in the us is supported by t. Rowe Price offering a strategic investing approach that examines opportunities 1st hand since 1937 price invest with confidence and Progressive Insurance small business protection for more than vehicles with insurance expertise to keep your company moving forward more progressive commercial dot com. This is the b.b.c. World Service with me money. And in business daily shortly selling the world's biggest oil company amid climate change Saudi Arabia is a ram Coke is said to be close to announcing details of its 1st ever share sell to the public the way some financial institutions be tempted That's coming up in Business Daily also the latest b.b.c. World news. B.b.c. News with Jonathan Izod there's been sporadic shelling and gunfire in northern Syria a day after Turkey accepted the u.s. Demand for a temporary halt to its offensive against Kurdish targets columns of smoke could be seen rising in the center of Russell iron on Thursday President Ed one of Turkey agreed to a 5 day pause in the military operation to allow Kurdish forces to withdraw from territory along the Turkish border heavy fighting has taken place in northern Mexico after the security forces seized one of the sons of drought drug cartel leader Joaquin El Chapo Guzman fighting raged for several hours after the video goes man Lopez was found during a routine patrol in the city of Qom the authorities later told news agencies they had released him to avoid further violence supporters of independence for the Spanish region of Catalonia holding a general strike it follows a week of protests over the Supreme Court's decision to jail 9 separatist leaders for their part in the independence referendum 2 years ago the British prime minister was Johnson is trying to drum up parliamentary support for the Bracks a deal has secured in Brussels ahead of the crucial extraordinary setting on Sun on Saturday Mr Johnston says he's confident M.P.'s will approve the deal despite its rejection by the opposition parties the un refugee agency says it's unable to resettle the majority of migrants stuck at a transit center in the Libyan capital Tripoli they've been holding protests this week but the u.n.h.c.r. Says it has nowhere to take them. Demonstrators have blocked roads in the Lebanese capital Beirut with parked vans and burning tires in a 2nd day of protest over the government's economic management the unrest was triggered by plans to tax calls on Internet messaging services such as whatsapp. A u.s. Basketball official has revealed that China asked for the sacking of the general manager of a team of the comments he made that they did not like Adam Silver said the Chinese government had called for the firing of Daryl Morey who's in charge of Houston Rockets at the latest b.b.c. World Service news. Hello I'm on way to welcome to business daily from the b.b.c. Coming up there's a global public backlash against possible fuel energy so who on earth is now going to buy shares in the world's largest oil company Saudi Arabia's Aramco over the last couple of years concerns about climate risk have gone mainstream in the investor community and it's not just altruism it's because people see a financial risk pass what would a world where Saudi Arabia is no longer the king of oil look like I think in many ways will be peaceful to fight over but I think the transition to that world could be very bumpy That's all here in Business Daily from the b.b.c. . Any day now it said Saudi Arabia's Aramco the world's largest energy company and the jewel in the crown of the Saudi economy will announce details of its 1st ever share sale to the public or i.p.o. As it's called but who's going to buy Aramco Shaz already environmental campaigners are out in force 8 of them including friends of the Earth this week wound banks helping to organize around Co's i.p.o. That they would effectively be financing the destruction of the planet it's all quit for Mohammed bin Salmond Saudi Arabia's Crown Prince and ruler he intended to use proceeds from Aramco sale to finance a revamp of his country's economy moving it away from being centered on oil plus there's this. Protest by extinction the rebellion this week the mood is turning globally against all fossil fuels so how much of a threat is all of this to Saudi Arabia's economy and wealth a question for Indra overland He's head of energy at Norway's Institute of International Affairs I think it is more serious than many people have thought due to the dramatic fall in the cost of solar and wind power and I think electric vehicles are going to come much faster are going to be much cheaper and much more easy to roll out than people realize the contribution of electric vehicles to mitigating climate change is overrated but the impact of electric vehicles on oil demand is way under-rated So as far as the Saudis are concerned and Saudi Aramco electric vehicles is very scary news Mohammed bin Salomon is the one who has been speaking a lot about moving the Saudi economy beyond oil is it just talk though to get the sense that they are seeing this is a bit of an existential threat to the Saudi economy I think there are people around Mohamed bin Solomon who see a real threat. I think there is a real intentional part of the Saudi elite to try to diversify to become less dependent on oil revenue to mitigate the risks from climate policy but the question is not so much whether they really intend to do this but whether they're really able to do this that's the 1st question and the 2nd question is whether it may be already too late so we see that they've scaled down the percentage of Saudi Aramco that will be sold off now it was suggested that it would be 5 percent of the company and that seems to be being lowered there was a lot of talk about selling it on international markets but that it has also been scrapped diverse legal risks and so on so now they're going after sovereign wealth funds mostly their close allies some of them other Arab countries in the region who are also already heavily dependent on oil so they seem to be already fighting an uphill battle and of course the longer it takes the more difficult this could get so the question is whether they are already too late and it's a last ditch attempt to sell some of this and that should be seen then should it as a sign that really the sort of interest from the private sector globally in Saudi Aramco just isn't really that it's very limited if say Saudi Arabia did become a big solar energy producer can it export that I mean can it monetize in any significant way to compensate for the eventual fall in global world around. Current technology we would need some new type of energy carrier to transport the energy produced to solar power it could be hydrogen but we simply don't have the technologies in place that would be cheap enough to produce massive amounts of hydrogen transported over long distances and then turn it into energy it also means that Saudi Arabia is in a very paradoxical situation because Saudi Arabia is quite active. Farsighted country renewable energy does actually making a contribution to the expansion of renewable energy but because they can't use that with current technologies to replace their oil income it means that the more solar power they produce they can replace the oil they themselves consume and export it but if demand will be falling for those exports they're just contributing to their own spiral Indra overland who then would still want to buy Aramco shares and this is why it's taken the i.p.o. 1st announced in 2016 so long to come to the market I asked a c.e.o. Of my resources which among other things advise is the order industry I've used to be a banker and I've always found it quite baffling how long these things take because you know you need to value the company you need to disclose a lot of things and if it's a company as big and a sprawling a star Aamco devaluation becomes more difficult and the disclosure requirements become difficult and it's also a matter of education from the bankers to the management and the shareholder why they need to disclose all of these things but is there enough international interest you think to make it worthwhile for I'm coach to come to the market still that's always a hard thing to say but when I look at the initial bond offering which they had earlier this year and just explained the bond offering would be then issuing debt yes it was 10 times oversubscribed So clearly there was big international interest at the time the initial listing will be 80 Saudi stock exchange which may be a little bit of a hindrance for foreign investors to go to it so in that sense a London or New York listing would get them probably more international interest however. Was that as well does the extinction rebellion protests that we need. Across the world the mood is moving against fossil fuels of any kind does that have any impact at school do you think on the appetite for international investors in Am Co I think it has an impact for a certain segment of international investors maybe some of the pension funds the more ethically and environmentally or yen to investment base which is the fastest growing segment in investments we'll look at this twice Sunday but then a lot of investors you know when it comes to money people forget what their core beliefs are what the core beliefs of their children are and will go for something that's a good investment proposition and you know are on course a hilly well run company a very profitable company so it's probably a safe bet but is that because these investments tend to be on a short term horizon I mean if you're looking 10 years 15 years as around cause an investment doesn't your Sessoms of the company have to change given the climate change agreements given the mood swing against fossil fuels Well yes and no because shares are very liquid investments I can buy a share today and I can sell it tomorrow so in that sense I'm not that exposed and the 2nd thing is you the mood right now is absolutely you know climate extinction was hard to get to the studio today. But you know in public transport just expand the protests have been disrupting public transport here in London not that's the mood right now to move to May shift again because at some stage you know we still have about 80 percent of the and that she that we need comes from fossil fuels and yes that should go down but for transportation we're still lacking the scale ability of it going down so at some stage it's do you want to lightsome What do you want to do and that's my hunch is not everybody's going to be quite as the so for us there now and when you hear these 8 environmental groups. Saying to the banks who are helping around could bring their i.p.o. To the market that they are effectively assisting in the destruction of the planet to you or next bank does that make any impact at all it will have an impact on the corporate governance people you know at the chairman level the many school children who send lettuce that does make it hard to do certain things but what it means is the fees must just be to see enough to pay a with with with the grief that you're getting I notice is a little bit cynical oil market consultant comedia Maya then she may be confident about the short term future of the oil sector but others aren't so sure the Bank of England governor Mark Carney for example has warned that fossil fuel companies cannot burn all their was a since the world is to avoid catastrophic climate change he's warned of a carbon bubble but what exactly is that I asked Andrew groans he's with carbon track an initiative a financial think tank focused on energy transition simply put the carbon bubble refer to the excess of fossil fuels that's available to us beyond the limits that we set ourselves for example in the parts agreement basically there's far more prove reserves of fossil fuels than will take us past on climate limits and other words if we but all those fossil fuels we would be way over the Paris climate change one agreement limits on how much the planet should warm with here with way overshoot Exactly yes so for a 50 percent chance of keeping warming to $1.00 degrees the carbon budgets about $500.00 gigatons a carbon 50 percent chance of $1.00 degrees of warming it's about a 1000 we currently emits about 40 gigatons of carbon a year so that means our current subtraction we've got about 13 years for $1.00 crowd come or about 25 years for a $1.00 degree outcome compared those numbers to the peace estimates of proved reserves of oil gas and coal they reckon there's about 130 years worth of coal. All but 50 years worth each of oil and gas so clear. To me increasingly people are also talking about the carbon bubble is some sort of financial bubble that people are starting to realize that these fossil fuel companies are a big risk and that this bubble might pop Yeah so the fact that it is well accepted that there is too much carbon out there doesn't necessarily mean that all the companies are overvalued at the moment they might be it doesn't necessarily mean that So for companies like Iran for example how much of its reserves can it not touch if the world wants to remain with say the 2 degrees warming as per the Paris agreement so Saudi Aramco is very large oil producer it's got proved reserves alone of over 65 years worth of my suppression of oil however being one of the lowest cost producers is probably going to be $1.00 of the last people standing so while we still need oil it's probably going to be someone like a car who is producing it however doesn't mean if you're looking at it from a financial point of view that value is safe just because a lot of those buyers might get produced if they're getting produced and sold a lower price of oil which you'd expect in a world where we're moving away from oil they're not might mean that there's lower value chips it's not how much momentum do you see towards a repricing of climate risk by financial market the shares of oil producers have underperformed the board of market recently it's been suggested that concerns about climate concerns about future on the one reason why investors don't know what value to attribute to future project options and therefore everything less one of the really big things that's happened over the last couple of years is that concerns about climate risk have gone mainstream in the investor community and it's not just altruism it's because people see a financial risk it might be someone like a pension fund who owns a little bit of companies in every sector around the world they think Ok well if my . Fossil fuel stocks do very well it has runaway climate change then everything else suffers so therefore the economically rational thing is to try and stop that climate change happen in the 1st place or it might be investors just whose clients are bugging them to make their investments Paris compliant and present those regulation is another thing I mean that could be that you know government start taking very big steps towards addressing climate change such as introducing a hefty call than taxes so is it technology or is it policy it's both I think so of course the big story of the last few years is that renewables have come down and cost so much policy can help that happen and that presumably would be a key tipping point if we knew pulls generally become lower costs than oil or other fossil fuel or that all the sources they already are cheaper in many parts of the world and not that makes it easier for politicians who want however what's important from a financial point of view isn't getting oil and gas and coal to 0 it's was the marginal change and even if let's say solar wind is only a small part of the market if it's growing quickly it doesn't need to be very long before it's take up all of the growth in the energy industry which means demand for oil gas and coal has peaked in the coal industry for example when coal was about 4 percent off it's because the u.s. Coal industry went bust so the big impact financially is usually around those peak times or even before as people anticipate what's happening here in the u.k. We've got the governor of the Bank of England Mark Carney talking about the financial risk of climate change I mean are we at a tipping point do you think where he was certainly the tipping point in terms of the financial community taking heed of clime issues so I thought the carbon track of 6 years ago in that time the debate has totally changed I go to a lot of different investor conferences last week I went to a couple where the conversation was just dominated by climate change in a way that didn't happen 5 years ago Andrew Grant of Carbon Tracker initiative what a willed with fossil fuels a school. And for renewables look like politically speaking it's a speculative question of course but few doubt the consequences for Saudi Arabia and Iran Co would be profound back to Indra overland who heads from India I think many actors would say that Saudi Arabia without its oil income would be weaker than its regional rival Iran Iran has a bigger population it is educationally and scientifically more developed industrially more developed a fight between Saudi Arabia and Iran without oil doesn't look very good for Saudi Arabia so perhaps a more subdued Saudi Arabia long term if they are wise that would be the best way to approach this and of course the weakened position of Saudi Arabia wouldn't be only in terms of its own economy and its own capacity to buy the best arms available in the world it would also be in terms of the interest of other external powers and supporting the Saudis so for the us Saudi Arabia is a very important strategic ally and that is founded on American interests in oil already due to shale oil the us is importing less oil but in the longer term if there is less oil consumption in general and less imports to the us then the u.s. May become even more disinterested in Saudi Arabia it's a very different world isn't it world but Saudi Arabia no longer wields that kind of power because it's a big change from where we are now if the world does transition to relying on most entirely in renewable energy I think in many ways that world will be more decentralized more peaceful there be less to fight over but I think the transition from the current world we are in to that world could be very bumpy what kind of bumps are you thinking of I think if a country such as Saudi Arabia miscalculates and doesn't realize how its position is being weakened one of its rivals could use the opportunity to get back at the Saudi. Launch an attack that's theoretical possibility somewhere down the road with reduced u.s. Interests with the financially weakened Saudi Arabia with the religious divides within Saudi Arabia becoming more salient if all those things were to happen it would be very tempting for somebody else to lean a little bit on the Saudi Arabia as a at least you're being very core there with the someone else I'm presuming you mean Iran here well Iran is Saudi Arabia's main rival in the region so that's obviously and drove a land ending this edition today's producer was Lawrence Knight Business Daily is back again at the same time on Monday. You're listening to the b.b.c. World Service and now witness history and to end our week looking back at significant moments in environmental history today we bring you the story of Kenya an environmental activist one Garri Maffei here in 2004 became the 1st African woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize in 2016 Alex last spoke to her daughter one Jerram a fine. Mother was often asked. Us . How can you. She said. But she said what needed to be done was so compelling that I had to do everything. She grew up surrounded by nature surrounded by the beauty of nature she grew up in the highlands of Kenya which she considered to be the most beautiful part of this world she described in such a vivid. Encounter with tadpoles Rapids around rocks and she would spend hours and forget that she had been sent to fetch water and she would spend time playing with the environment I think that had a lot to do with it I also remember her describing her mother being a farmer her mother grew all the food that they ate and she had a small piece of land within her where she asked my mother to grow her crops and my mother enjoyed so much interaction with the soil. It was clear early on that when Gary mithai was very bright she goes away to school to university out in the United States she comes back and joins the university as a very young member of staff. Because her Ph d. In veterinary anatomy and became a professor at the University of Nairobi during her work she noticed that population growth farming and deforestation thing a dramatic effect on rural Kenya. She was struck by the issues that were being presented by women who were very much like her mother it was all about lack of fuel having to walk hours to fetch firewood lack of water and lack of nutritious food and everything they described she felt was connected to a degradation of the landscape and so why not plant trees she asked them discussion with the country women is what through the me because they would describing a situation that was completely different from what I had experienced as a child Professor Wangari Matthias speaking to the b.b.c. In 2007 and so I could see and I could experience from their descriptions that something very drastic was going wrong with our environment what it was not clearly as I knew it this soil was disappearing and leave us we have Brown during the rainy season instead of rain water being retained in the forest and coming to us slowly in the form of rivers now the water was rushing downstream because there were no bid there was no vegetation to hold the water so these descriptions give me the inspiration to do the women let us plant trees she founded the Green Belt Movement in 1977 to help women plant trees and at the same time. Begin to understand how to heal the land themselves it's 50000000 trees now and counting but very quickly the green movement became more than just about planting trees because we had a extremely dictatorial government and we had a one party system public land was being possible doubt to the friends of the administration of the day and so protecting these spaces necessarily becomes political one area that was under threat was the Karuna forest on the. Nairobi very it was protected by law they became apparent the land being illegally sold off and developed. In the Green Belt Movement went into action planting trees and confronting the developers. Kernel forest was by far one of the scariest battles it was vicious we invited members of the public to come and help us plant the trees but I think what is happening now is that people are showing a lot along God because nobody knew that stench to which the forest is actually destroyed. One clash protesters set fire to buildings and equipment used by the developers while contractors high thoughts to protect their plots and the time for testers and Gary has was clocked in the head but there's no way they were there with the full knowledge of the police so we had one of the edifying to the facts we have for fighting the government she got very physically hurt she was in hospital but she survived and so whenever she survived she knew it was time to go back and finish the work of saving the party. The battle to save her went on for years. The Green Belt Movement one saving career of forest Bhandari Mathias also turned her attention to saving the only green space in downtown Nairobi who. She became involved in other human rights campaigns to the Green Belt Movement and. Mothers of political prisoners of the day chose to stage a city park a hunger strike and these mothers decided they would sit there for as long as it took to get their children out of jail and my mother decided to wait with them and so they said they would wait as long as it took I have no idea where these policemen are taking me now. I have done nothing to challenge the president and the party of the day that was gutsy she was beaten up threatened and arrested numerous times she pressed on you know for us we this was our mother so we just saw her as normal barefoot walking around in the kitchen eating dinner with us we tried to to to stockpile we tried to say well why do you really have to but she was not to be stopped I mean she was so resolute and you know for us as children I have 2 brothers we always saw her come back home so we knew should come back we got used to the fact that she came back she was part of the opposition coalition that swept to power in 2002 she was elected to Parliament and even as a deputy Environment Minister then in October 2004 a boat from the blue. An ecologist from Kenya has become the 1st African woman to win the Nobel Peace Prize when you got a mother I spent more than 25 years fighting deforestation she just didn't believe that it was her I think for a while there she probably thought maybe some just don't know but it was one of the most amazing moments to see her enjoy. The spotlight and the platform you know wish she'd never had before I think the whole day she sort of spent saying. I didn't know anyone was listening when I was called to be informed that I had one I had no idea whatsoever what was coming and then it must tell you you almost don't believe it actually it is impossible to understand the impact it would have on your life she took a conservation message around Africa and around the world then suddenly she became ill all her life my mother was healthy and so when she was 1st diagnosed as a and stage 4 ovarian cancer then it was quite a shock. My mother died on September 25th 2011. She's left quite a legacy I think set me for us as Kenyans as women as Africans I think the fact that one woman from the highlands of Kenya could be such a potent force for change remains one of the most inspiring things for. And each of us can do something it doesn't have to be big and the little things we do eventually will create this wave of change. That was one Jerram a sign of the great Kenyan environmentalist and Nobel Peace Prize winner Wangari speaking to witness history in 2016. You're listening to the b.b.c. World Service on k s Eugenie 4 Corners Public Radio and southern tribal radio thanks for joining us this is chaos you to go k u. K d n g Durango k u u g Farmington. U.s.w. Flora Vista. Springs we can also be heard in Cortez make us Silverton and online at k.s.u. . You can stream our signal right there on the website also on the n.p.r. News app i Tunes radio and on tonight.