I could also be a member but I listen to k.u.n.c. Every single day and I benefit from it too my grandpa always tells me that nothing in life is free to me in that moment that I should also be supporting with a monthly contribution and that's what I did just go to k.u.n.c. Dot org and become a member right now don't wait. Thank you for listening to. 2 2 Hello welcome it's nice day live from London from the b.b.c. World Service great to have your company counties up and climate of the number of people forcibly writ displaced worldwide now stands at 70000000 people can the 1st ever un global refugee forum find a long term solution we hear from the UN's High Commissioner for Refugees on what needs to be done we should share resources and share also the responsibility of receiving people in our countries full of Pakistani President Pervez Musharraf has been sentenced to death for high treason We'll get reaction to that we get the latest also on the continuing protests in India over Prime Minister Narendra Modi's controversial new citizenship law which gives preference to known Muslim immigrants and the European Space Agency is to launch an orbiting telescope designed to investigate alien worlds that is not a fake news colleague that is real news coming up here on News Day. Baby same news Hello this is Gerry Smith's a global summit on refugees is getting underway in Geneva the un refugee agency describes the last 10 years as a decade of displacement and says the meeting is intended to find better long term solutions from Geneva his image and folks worldwide 70000000 people have fled their homes because of conflict in persecution neighboring countries they're the brunt of such upheaval many are growing impatient not just with the refugee crisis itself but with the reluctance of wealthier countries further away to share the burden the u.n. Is helping to drum up more financial support but it also wants changes in policy better education for refugee children were opportunities for adults and resettlement to need countries for the most vulnerable. A special court in Pakistan has sentenced the former president Pervez Musharraf to death a high treason is the 1st military ruler to be convicted of this crime the charges related to his decision to suspend Pakistan's constitution and impose emergency rule in 2007 General Musharraf was sentenced in absentia has been living in Dubai since 2016. The u.s. Aviation giant burring is to temporarily stop producing its troubled 737 Max airline from next month the company you have been hoping to get the aircraft back in operation by the end of this year Peter Bergen's reports the 77 Max was grounded in March after more than 300 people died in 2 crashes involving the aircraft a problem with the plane's automated control system is thought to have been the primary cause and Boeing has been working to redesign it the company says safely returning the aircraft to service is its top priority but it acknowledges that the approval process must be extraordinarily thorough and robust it adds that the delay will not result in any job losses although it is likely to affect Boeing suppliers and the wider u.s. Economy the European Space Agency is launching its 1st mission dedicated to the study of distant worlds some 4 and a half 1000 planets have been discovered orbiting other stars but the Caleb's telescope will reveal more about their composition and structure daughter Kate Isaac is a project scientist on the mission what cats will do is to follow up on known exoplanets between bright stars and the key is that it's a follow up mission so we know where and when to point we'll be looking at bright stars as we're able to measure their masses very precisely from the ground and by combining the sizes that will measure with k. Ops with the masses that will measure have measured from the ground or be able to determine the mean density of these planets Well news from the b.b.c. . Officials in Afghanistan say that 10 civilians have been killed in a bomb explosion in host province which borders Pakistan a Ministry of Defense spokesman said a civilian vehicle set of a roadside bomb planted by the Taliban a spokesman for the prevention governor said the victims 5 men 2 women and 3 children all belong to one family the violence comes as Taliban and u.s. Officials hold intermittent peace talks opposition political parties and students in India have held further demonstrations against a controversial citizenship law which discriminates against Muslims the new legislation in France tracks the naturalization process for numbers letters from 3 neighboring countries Senator Rajan is in Delhi a day after and president and protests across India regional political parties are trying to put more pressure on the Indian government to withdraw the citizenship law by holding rallies in several places a number of buses were damaged in stone pelting incidents in the state of God Allah thousands of supporters of a regional party are holding protest rallies in Tamil Nadu in the Northeast the situation is tense but the government has lifted the curfew in Assam which was the worst affected in the and is the distance you block protest the Paris based organization Reporters Without Borders says the number of journalists killed in 2019 has been considerably lower than in previous years have said 49 journalists died this year mostly covering conflicts in Yemen Syria and Afghanistan the annual average for the last 2 decades has been 80 but the organization says a high number of journalists have been imprisoned an international team of paleontologist researching 6000000 year old fossils in Venezuela says the region was once home to an 8 meter long giant Cayman it was able to move between rivers. And those are the latest stories from b.b.c. News. Thank you for the latest news update hello it's Tuesday from the b.b.c. World Service coming to you live from London College up Clare McDonnell with you thanks for joining us over the next half hour we'll take you to Switzerland Pakistan and India and tell you about coming up next actually a big refugee conference in Geneva today hosted by the u.n. Also breaking news out of Pakistan as you would have heard in the headlines from the president the census to death by a special court for bringing the latest here on the state. Was and we begin with that conference it's expected to be a big day for the United Nations as the organization hosts its 1st global refugee forum in Geneva the gathering comes at the end of a Tamil a decade in which according to the United Nations the number of refugees has risen to over 25000000 people worldwide the ambition is to turn the ideal of international responsibility sharing for refugees into concrete action for those millions in need but it is a tough sell for governments trying to provide services to the own populations at a time of austerity the world's refugee population continues to swell of these camps have become a roll call for some of the world's most worst conflicts. In Kenya Q-Tip along in Bangladesh the tare in Jordan and all next destination morea count on the Greek island of Les Pauls it's there that our global House correspondent tulip Mazumdar reports on an increasing number of children self harming and attempting suicide psychologists working there say they are overwhelmed with the number of young people needing help and a warning you may find some of the details upsetting. That. The women and children's clinic run by the medical charity m.s.f. Has just opened for the day and already a medical emergency is unfolding. A 17 year. Afghan boy has been brought in by his friend. He slashed himself across the chest and arms of a night's child psychologist Angela moderately is caring for him the boy is approaching a very bad thing that he. Didn't ask her out how is he now well he's not well he doesn't want to be talks about wanting. To do this again to her in the last 3 months alone Angela has dealt with 20 cases of self harm and 2 suicide attempts she says Children as young as 2 hurting themselves out of frustration and fear child one experience something traumatic as to have the time and space to recall for. Children to recall the. Child press color and you can see children banging their head against a wall pulling. Off. Children to. Strongly start to talk about the desire of dying. The vast majority of people coming to Lesbos fleeing who are torn countries such as Afghanistan Syria and Iraq they arrive at the main government run parts of Moria camp which the b.b.c. Has refused access to most and pitching tents in the neighboring Olive Glave Instead thousands and up stock hit the months awaiting news on their asylum claims the Greek government's recently announced plans to meis $20000.00 people off less balls and neighboring islands by early next year but movement on that so far has been slow and more refugees and migrants are arriving here all the time. To the reason that without reports while the Greek government is saying that the problem is reached again it sounds proportions I can't take any. More refugees in Athens insist the European Union Musharraf sponsibility for the influx and isn't is forming controversial plans so we read this a few weeks back to build what some are calling prison camps for migrants So what does this all look like if you are a refugee yourself in a gene stuff is the author of a girl from Syria She's also a disability rights activist she famously traveled 5600 kilometers across Europe ended up in Germany she was in a wheelchair when where she did when she did that and she was actually granted asylum at the end of her journey earlier she told me about her experience adjusting to the culture differences and I just think even that to destruction I mean when I arrived here in Europe. You know that everything was going to be better and. The situation was going to trust the improve but it didn't because I was can shut that cancel out you receive will people with disabilities and I can totally relate to some of the jury stroll in the report maybe the psychological stuff wasn't strong but it was definitely there I remember being totally terrified of any airplane that. Took me a little bit of Tantalus that was not going to drop any bar but how did you do with that psychologically because to even read those words out loud the fact that you went in a wheelchair for 5600 kilometers and your destination was Germany that is a feat in itself but to actually get there and think it's over my ordeal is over and that for then to the to the dawning realisation that it isn't over how did you how did that feel. Well I just as I consider it I consider it but watching the journey. I have been interested in psychology. And of self aware that this. Has had to happen. And I am a firm believer that you may not you may not always have power to change what happens to you but. The power to react to it the way that does not destroy you you know there's a business big themes running at this conference in Geneva talking about sharing the burden of migrants across the world 70000000 people displaced and now clearly money will come into that as well but you know we heard earlier from the u.n. High Commissioner for Refugees really program they say well you know if we need to think about other things when people get to the country it's not only just sharing but in responsibility it's about education jobs livelihoods the infrastructure solutions that you're going to provide for these people to live and grow a life in the new home I mean how how little are we thinking about that at the moment do you think too little I think everyone is thinking about the u.s. . Crisis as a problem solving. Barry wrong way to look at because these are people who are not a problem. And things you mention about health care education and providing room of a chance to start in the new hosting country is at the core of what the office is going to be about. But even so for the author of a girl from Syria actually heading off to the conference in Geneva shortly. Now we're going to go to Pakistan where a court has just handed down an extraordinary verdict the country's former president and military ruler Pervez Musharraf has been handed a death sentence by a special court hearing the verdict only came down in the past few minutes so we can go directly now to Pakistani correspondent. To what's going on here. General Pervez Musharraf was a military ruler of Pakistan who seized power in a coup in 1990 later became president of Pakistanis as ruler of the country up until 2008. And now since then he has become increasingly politically isolated he spent the last few years living outside of Pakistan in Dubai where he says he's been receiving military true medical treatment. But he had faced since 2013 a charge of treason as well as other charges relating to allegations that he had suspended the constitution in 2007 in the face of widespread protests against his rule now that case is really been dragging on since 2030 but today we had a verdict and as you say it's unprecedented that with a death sentence being handed down to those Musharraf as unlikely that this death sentence would have to be implemented not least because he's not in Pakistan as I say he is in Dubai Nevertheless this is a big moment Pakistan is a country that has been dominated either directly or indirectly by its military for much of its existence and this is the 1st time the military ruler this case this kind of trial and certainly this kind of sentence has there been any reaction to this news yet. This case has from its incipience really been. Politically divisive it seemed in the past few weeks that the government wasn't particularly keen on one of but it was coming out in this case it seemed as if there was the potential for more and more delays the government lawyers had been filing new petitions but the judges seemed quite keen to announce a verdict in this so we expect that kind of division within Pakistani society over this case to continue certainly from Mr Musharraf. I was just watching a video clip from one of his legal representatives outside the court saying that Mr Musharraf wanted to come to Pakistan to defend himself in person but that he wasn't able to because of his health and because of security concerns So we're yet to hear whether or not they'll be launching an appeal against the decision but one of margins that they will be thank you very much that's the B.B.C.'s. Being us up to date that news there that the former president and military Musharraf has been handed a death sentence by a special court hearing news day from the b.b.c. World Service we have Alastair Ross standing by with the sports news for that Hamish in the studio to with more Boeing news on the way on our business task but let's bring you some science news 1st the European Space Agency is launching its 1st dedicated 1st mission rather dedicated to the study of distant worlds the Celts telescope will make very precise measurements of planets to get a better sense of what they are made of for more we can talk now to our science correspondent Jonathan Amos Jonathan So we count planets up to now is is that the difference with this mission we're going to find out a little bit more about the substance. You know we've been very good at counting planets if you go back to the 1990 s. When they discovered the very 1st planet around a distant star we've talked up for a half 1000 and we're doing really really well and you know we find a few 100 every so often that's what they announced their various means out there to try and spot these worlds orbiting distant stars but we've got to move beyond that and start characterizing them saying you know what are they made of do they have big atmospheres of they got rocky surfaces they have rings moons and they've got a deep oceans on their surfaces and this telescope called Chaos from the European Space Agency it's led from Switzerland is going to do that it's going to measure of the width of the planets as they passed in front of the stars you can see the light dip as a planet passes in front of it starting to make a very very precise measurement of its width and if you know its mass through some other independent means then you can you can work out its density and from its density you know you can then say something about what it's made of and this seems to be an in-between size that that dominates all galaxy many of the planets bigger than all but small of the Neptune So what does that tell us. Well we've got a name for them which is kind of super us yeah I mean this is kind of well in that range between $1.00 and $4.00 times the width of the. So of a large car rocky bodies we don't what are they like or they are they a bit more like Neptune which has got quite a geishas envelope around it that's what we'd like to establish because you say this this kind of planet seems to be cropping up in the statistics when we do the counting and so obviously it's had a significant size but it's not something that we see on our own solar system or in the Risen a super us here in our solar system so so why is it and what are these things that's what we'd really like to get to the bottom of and we can we all think this this whole project is going to be able to prevent Misfits for the chemical think that is life and if I could be really exciting that well that comes a bit later so you know we've got this 4 and a half 1000 and that number will start climbing so we drew up a short list now all of the best candidates to use when we get the super telescopes in the next few years so there's a successor to the Hubble Space Telescope school James Webb it's coming in a couple of years and that has a huge mirror a 6 and a half metres wide it will go up in space and it will have the power to probe the atmospheres of some of these planets looking for suites of gases that may indicate that life processes are taking place down on the surfaces so you know you'd look for gases like methane for ozone and have some sort of gas guestimate that there might be something crawling on the surface of those planets that would be exciting but chaos is going to find the candidates for those telescopes it you know when they come online in the next few years fascinating stuff thank you for the update Jonathan Amos the not quite little men in suits but maybe not far off you know it's science correspondent Jonathan Amos and we've got Allison rolls. With the news he doesn't have the news these with honesty you don't you know wearing any uniform you know you like the way Jonathan speck but go ahead No it's from you know large rocky bodies with a gaseous atmosphere it's Alister on the small so that's kind of what that's. Probably a little bit but I did drop myself in that particular hole through the Premier League sides identifying top targets to be that new managers the top story this morning are still of held further meetings with their former midfielder mick out of Tessa about taking over on a full time basis Everton are said to have more face to face talks with former Chelsea and Napoli boss Carlo Anshul Lottie Ivory Coast Wilfried Zaha was praised for improving the mental side of his game after he scored the goal that salvaged a point for his Crystal Palace side in a one all draw against Brighton on Tuesday it's the 1st of the semifinals at the Club World Cup Brazil's flamenco playing Saudi Arabia is outside for the rights to meet are the Liverpool or Mexican club Monterrey in the final means that the game on Choose day the Liverpool are due to play they're likely to feel the youth side for the match against Aston Villa in the League Cup and in the n.b.a. The Milwaukee Bucks 18 game winning streak is over they have lost 121162 the Dallas Mavericks past Thank you very much indeed now yesterday we're expecting Boeing to announce either the temporary halting all total cessation of production of the 737 Max plane that announcement is now outs and it's not great news it's putting 12000 jobs at risk so is this game over a temporary cessation for the pumps or the hoping temporary cessation they can find a way to fix it but they've been spending the last 9 months trying to do much of the same to give you an indication of what that means will those 9 months of cost Boeing $6000000000.00 We said $12000.00 jobs at risk those are the direct people who are building the plane if you think about just how large one of the 737 Max planes is if you can imagine not just think of a big plane at their factory in Renton But being made for. 52 a week they dropped back from 52 will we can think how large that building must be to build those back from that to 40 so that 52 to 48 knocked 0.25 to 0.4 of one percent of u.s. G.d.p. The now going from $40.00 to 0 for a little while I spoke to Neil hands with Chairman of the Australian airline consultancy strategic Aviation Solutions I asked him what we know now that we didn't know yesterday how one thing that has come to pass is that the f.i.a. I have now very clearly said that Ryan might have it to you but the f.i.a. Are now controlling the agenda and there's all the Evan. That darling still haven't satisfied the federal regulator and in other states the f.a.a. Is a little bit late to this party isn't it because there's already been lots of allegations of the f.a.a. Knew about some of the problems with the planes the fs of turned a blind eye it's had some brand damage of its own over this how it has but the fundamental difference is that they the secretary of transportation who is. The broad of the top of this is all out and it's 5 it had not present Trump interviewing and insisted on the ground. With their colors Iran without him was just letting it go on and on and on it was President trampers said enough is enough because all the eff I am dying worried about with the jobs they Financial are picked on on darling and I see us I calle certainly I work taking responsibility to 346 lives a day in lost. Let's talk about the jobs for a 2nd if we can Boeing's Renton facility where makes these planes it's in excess of 50 planes a week that they were putting through there at the peak of production we're talking about a lot of jobs actually a proportion of u.s. G.d.p. That could be knocked by this and that spring thing in the background all at your age 12000 employees in the city of Seattle so it has a milder impact but it also has an impact on the. Way you carry sod it like in the air they engines for their craft. Plea might buy outs of city the French government insert from it was a joint venture partner with General Electric in the production of the engine so it's got. Ongoing affects all of whites are in our sights not just down but also how this runs on into Europe Neal Hansford And if you worked at Renton plants you feel like you're in Lipitor found a pitcher these aircraft are huge that is huge Philip thank you. Let's go to India now where deadly protests have spread across the country at issue a new citizenship you know based on religion which gives national treatment to known Missler migrants the protests have become a serious challenge to Prime Minister Narendra Modi and his party which is spouses a Hindu centric world view to tell us more I spoke to our correspondent in Delhi under sun Ethirajan there were lots of reports of violence during the week in protest by university students and the details are slowly emerging in some of the videos which said which of which showed how the police entered into the campus and beat students there that was really shock to many people but in the last evening some of those who were injured in the protested at least the 2 of them told the local media they thought they had been shot at by with the live rounds but the Delhi police have denied using any live ammunition and they said they used only double lives what is interesting is they did before they said they were using only tear gas and baton so now it remains to be seen how for the Delhi Police will investigate in the meantime protests by the regional parties are happening in many states across India or example in which it out in telling Ana in the south in Tamil Nadu and Carol against this citizenship law many people in the in the country they feel that this is discriminatory towards Muslims this goes against the India's foundations of a secular democracy and in the meantime in the northeast they have a different opposition to this citizenship law where the government is now lifting the curfew in the state of Assam but the region is still tense What has the government said. The prime minister Narendra Modi issued a statement when a twitter about we was calling for calm and he is that it was very distressing and unfortunate these violent incidents but at the same time the student leaders here do not see those statements as the reaching out to these the student community trying to assuage the feelings or trying to address the concerns of the people of Assam but the government argues that you know religious minorities non Muslims from neighboring countries have nowhere else to go and that's why they are only false tracking their application for naturalization process so they're not going to give them straight away citizenship they have trying to justify but then these protests have taken the government by surprise and what many critics they say that you know this law will polarize the country along the religious lines and hundreds of academics and then scientists they've written oh they're doing an open letter to the government saying you know this is goes going against the Indian Constitution and asking the government to withdraw this law giving us an update they're all on the protests in India has spread across the country that's the B.B.C.'s understand he Rajan and that was the study from the b.b.c. World Service Company shop and the clam of the tunnel with you thank you for your company this morning we will be back at the same time tomorrow to stay with b.b.c. World Service for all the latest updates on World News coming next from Carney and myself about. The b.b.c. World Service is very possible by American Public Media as the largest station based Public Radio organization in the u.s. A.p.m. Offers award winning contests to audiences everywhere the b.b.c. World service connects audiences to the world from international news to arts and culture programming listeners hear global stories and perspectives not heard anywhere else. Well the women are playing more in movie theater games is still largely absent as characters and creators on the conversation 2 women working in the industry in Lithuania and the u.k. Discuss where the having a female developer makes any difference the appeal of video games and if the gaming community is still a hostile place for women plus the untapped potential of the female market that's all coming up after the news with me can check and it's. B.b.c. News with Gerry Smit a global summit on refugees is underway in Geneva intending to find better long term solutions for tens of millions of people displaced by conflict and persecution the u.n. High Commissioner for Refugees said that while money is important so is providing refugees with health care education and employment. Protests in any against a discriminatory citizenship law have now spread to different parts of the country the new law in France strikes naturalization for refugees from 3 neighboring countries so long as they're not Muslim massive demonstrations have ever opted in Tamil Nadu Carola telling Ghana and good Herat. That's rational court in Pakistan has sentenced the former president Pervez Musharraf to death for high treason his the 1st military were led to be convicted of this crime General Musharraf has been living in Dubai since 2016 the chairman of the South Korean electronics giant some strong liaison Hoon has been sentenced to 18 months in prison for sabotaging labor union activities $25.00 other current and former Samsung employees who were also found guilty. Firefighters in Australia have been working to prevent an out of control mega far in New South Wales from reaching a power station which generates 10 percent of the state's electricity they're trying to stop the stockpiles of coal from catching light. Officials in Afghanistan surveyed 10 civilians have been killed in a bomb explosion in a province which borders Pakistan a government spokesman said the victims belong to one family. And international team of paleontologist researching 6000000 year old fossils in Venezuela say the region was once her maternal 8 metre long giant Cayman There was able to move between rivers the project's lead scientists say their findings have broadened knowledge of what animals could do. Hello and welcome to the conversation I'm Kim track and etc here with the program with an all female perspective each week 2 women from different countries come together to talk about a shared profession passion experience for a long time video games were made with men in mind the more popular games were fronted by alpha male archetypes and involved fast cars and gun battles female characters but all too often relegated to sidekick status or to the role of the under-dressed love interest and over the past 2 decades this narrative has begun to shift and women are carving out a space in the videogame arena as both plays and developments but what changes when women get to make the games does anything to discuss that and more I'm joined by Rianna Pratchett and would winning script writer and narrative designer from the u.k. And you have been at scare a game designer from Lithuania who job is to take video games from concept to delivery Welcome to you both thank you have a party here that's the here Brianna does it really make a difference when you're women or women men have more say in making these games I think it does because you're coming at them with a different perspective with a different background and the same with diversity as a whole if you're taking different ethnicities different experiences different age groups abilities you all bringing different ideas perspectives world views to the table so I think it does matter and obviously we're trying to appeal to as broader audience as possible and that includes a lot of women these days in fact I believe that they age of the average gamer is going off and that as likely to be female as as male you have a doesn't change anything it does actually it does change a lot for us as game does. Enters the types of experiences we now have to design for instance we always try to focus on designing a fun game but you know the definitions fun is very different for different people so when you have to consider female audiences you know you have to also ask what types of experiences and even what types of player months of Asians do they want to see in the games right because they do make almost half the market and specially immobile it's actually the majority of players that are women so you know it would be just completely crazy I just logically and from a business perspective to ignore these questions so when you try to design you have to ask a lot of questions perhaps the female gamers would enjoy more corporative experience maybe there's a particular fantasies that and stories you know that female gamers would like to experience more are you giving them the types of things The enjoy in life and you know finally the characters that you're making are they the ones that you know these female gamers could identify with or art of the just defined by their sex appeal Ok but I think yeah it's important to be in fact take and you know research and push for change then with this in mind re on what to appeal to you personally it's funny much different games feel different moods I've been a gamer since I was about 6 years old so I graying out with games being part of my life and I also used to play games with other people and make them social experiences even before they were social in the way we think of it now so I used to play games with my father who loved tech and computers and robotics electronics and he would play the game and I would sit next to him and draw the maps so this was before maps became part of a game or even in the books but I would get out the graph paper and I would draw the maps and I would he to sit next to him or I'd sit behind him in his. A big office chat like a human both petition and we would play the games together and I would be his his navigator basically and when Katie the 8 year old little girl moved next door to me when I was 11 in autonomy village which had no other female children it we played adventure games together and. Now it's different moods there's different games I'll play with my partner in multiplayer this may be different games if I want to really kind of texted solid experience you know all public places I mean that's maybe a 1st person and then she game also I play a little strategy games or puzzle games away games of good for sort of just kicking the brain Ok forward and giving it a little bit of buzz getting your brain working in the mornings those are particularly useful so different games different you know what do you play what do you enjoy playing there is so much actually what drives me to play the games most is usually if they do have some kind of narrative so I enjoy all types of story driven adventures anything that really has a world of characters and where I can find my role in it and change something within the game's world but you know at the same time 1st person shooters are great stress relief for me could you just explain such a person suited to someone who doesn't quite understand what is a 1st person shooter game yet so the 1st person shooter genre is basically when you have the camera from the 1st person perspective are you usually hold variety of guns and your goals are usually oriented to. Shooting other people for higher scores or even going through some campaigns which do have stories but you know the main mechanic is basically sowing grenades and getting headshots quite violent but he does also have the particular experiences like Riana saves that you might need based on your mood and what sort of need is that scratching for you. When you're playing that game what do you know if you've just had a really long day and you don't like identify with the violence you don't think that is something that will translate into the real world but it's a stress really for me I should point out let me say 1st person shooter means through the eyes the character and you usually go to gun on some kind of weapon but the 1st person perspective as a whole is used in a lot of other games that don't have violence in the scene use a lot and be all these days from reality so 1st best picture of his very good for the safe experience actually like putting you in the shoes of the character and we also say 3rd person shooter which is usually when you see the character in front of you and you can see the whole character moving as you move beyond you know you explain to us that was your father who got to use the famous novelist Terry Pratchett who got you into games at the age of 6 you say you father was he played a role in getting you into games what was yes definitely Well my 1st experience where I actually watch my deathly because you know he assumed that I was maybe too little too you know have a go and as he worked and I tease so I did have access to some of the you know early puzzle and adventure games and I remember that the creative problem solving that those games had really appealed to me at 1st and when I moved more into these like roleplaying games where I could be someone else I could assume the role of someone else that I couldn't be in real life and you know play a part in these huge worlds and narratives like I would really enjoy being the hero and right solving quests and helping people so it did have a little influence on my self-esteem and my self-confidence like as a succeeding in the game it gave me more drive to you know succeed in certain goals in real life as as a kid so I do remember that very well and especially when the internet came about I could now be part of. Like online communities and play these games and strive for these goals with more people so I actually made lifelong friends in online games and I witnessed a few marriages between the people who did meet in the game and you know the kind of killed the boss already did some running around a forest together and they bonded over that and they met in real life and so the range of benefits of games that I have seen is really just it's charming it's something that no other hobby has given me so far well let's talk about getting into the industry because Rionda you trained as a journalist how then did you end up working in this industry Well it's true a very unusual route it was for women's magazines actually or a one woman's magazine in particular called minks which was a kind of slightly rock'n'roll of Us magazine in the late ninety's and the magazine decided to cover games for about 4 issues I think in the end ended up going for 5 issues and that got me on the press list for all companies sending out code for game so sending out what allows refuse to play those games in advance of them going out to the general public and. Although my my work it means didn't last that long it got real nice press lists there were very fair a few female journalists back then in the industry as a whole I think there were maybe there might have been one other in the u.k. So I think the P.R.'s remembered me and I think they wanted to kind of encourage me and encourage more female Plaza and more female journalists and then I ended up getting a job at the late great p.c. Sinai casino which back then was the U.K.'s longest running p.c. Games magazine and I spent a couple of years on stuff that all my all star all these devices were all male and we kind of went around the wells interesting development this and look at all the different facets of the game and I left full time work probably about in 2002 and I was off to be a story editor for a company called Larry and studios who had a game called Beyond divinity and they had previously done a game called Divine Divinity which is a terrible name in there but. I was a big fan of the game they remembered that and they were looking for a native English speaker to help them polish the script and I thought of me and I'd just gone freelance and that was so that was you and she would point yeah I mean I didn't know what I'd I was doing there was no me back then sometimes she would talk to designers who did some writing but there was never a writer specific person so I sort of ended up making up as I went along years ago in d.c. Rainier did you know of other women working in the games industry when you were growing up and going and actually investigating the Lisa Wayne and gaming industry is still quite small it's very 1st name bases and even now that I've been involved in it for a few years I still don't see many women so when I finally decided that I want to work with games because before that I was gaming a lot but like the industry to me seemed like this. Elitist club that I could never joined seem like on some faraway island that I didn't know how to reach just explain that how why did it seem elite to you I wasn't seeing many women on stage when I was watching game conference's or previous of games and gaming events so most of my I am role models that I didn't see as creative directors of designers where men and you know they would mostly be based like in the USA and I thought you know I'm just like sitting in this little country I don't even know how to start so at some point I just thought Ok this is probably not for me and I pursued a different career like in copywriting Kansas doing little things like the dream to make games never left me so I thought Ok I will just go on google and try to find you know a studio in Lithuania where I could get some experience where I could understand how games are actually made you know because I only had this like imagination of how but I didn't know the processes so I actually applied and they took me based on just the semantics of games that I knew just from years and years of gaming so you know then began this whole process of just me learning independently and reading and networking but most importantly trying to get over this imposter syndrome so I still do get anxious actually even after over 4 years about belonging or having the right the adequate skills but then I just try to focus on my motivation like why do I want to do this so that always just keeps me confident at that moment on a given that you were kind of creating your own role something you never seen anyone else specifically did you ever struggle with and plus the center. You know I put Whately I do more now that I'm doing stuff outside of guy but I think I was just really quite bullish when I was a kid and it was a slight but I. Like it so therefore that's fine and I and it never occurred to me that anyone might stop me doing it because of my gender and I often had situations where I was the only girl in the room doing something whether it was karate or judo or something like that I was kind of used to that and I just no one ever stride to stop me so I just kind of went ahead 11 point thing to point out is there are some really high profile women working in games in the eighty's in the invention Shona rise as that sort of faded out and 1st person shooters came in the kind of women faded a little white a little bit and more men came into the industry but can I ask then if you care and all you how much say do you have how much influence do you have sometimes they hear of these horrible stories not of women being sorry Lanston the meeting groans and just writes out harassed in the workplace Luckily I have been mainly judged by my work ethics and by my passion for all things gaming so. I did have to you know earn some authority but it feels like I do have a seat at the table and I have a voice that noise may not always be heard right depends on many factors but I have learned to pick my battles in this industry and try to appreciate every little victory that Ari every little change I've implemented in my workplace they may be very subtle but you know it's a process can you give me an example you mention picking your battles can you give me an example of you know something that you have for. A very common example would be when you there's a new character in development right and let's say that the cycle for doing the work is very short so you know people don't really invest that much time into like considering the details or thinking of the background they just create characters for the game so you know sometimes you would get this 1st concept art and you know you take one glance at the character and perhaps you see that you know she's overly sexualized or it's not something that would appeal to most women like there is nothing wrong with you know having a sexual character but it does have to come from from a place that women can only scour through the can understand sometimes you know the male gaze probably. Regarding some features or art or just basically player motivations would differ and I would always like call that out. Perhaps we need to spend more time on this character if we really want to you know put it in a game that's marketed to women well it's supposed to remind you that you're listening to the conversation and I'm with me on a project and you have been that scared to lunch on gamers who also work in the video game industry. Now the computer game industry and the paying of computer games online hasn't always been accepting of women there was what's now known as. Game a gate in Aug 24th teen when internet trolls launched a series of harassment campaigns targeting female video game creators players and journalists me on it if the world of gaming and less hostile place for women now and it wasn't 2014. I think there's still a spotlight on female developers and there are still you can't help but feel like your words are all being kind of quite heavily watched online is very much a different place to when I go in it's a it's more difficult poss to navigate I think but they're also more opportunities so I started off in print journalism and now that's widened out to the web and and there are a lot more communities on a law and it's easier to get access to certain software to kind of practice making games but what about just in terms of you know when you're playing and even if you're a female journalist and you're writing about it. Being abused or people sort of calling out for different things that has that changed again it's hard to tell from a I think. I'm a bit of a mercenary type of character in games so I don't work at a studio I'm not in studio culture I come in as an expert and therefore my kind of expertise has been established in the off that's why and that so it will kind of be silly for people to question it too much and I have a long career in the industry and I think that helps. You have a did game again effect will change how you interact online it hasn't affected me that much I was obviously like a bystander because I had never received such harassment myself hoping to never experience that but you know it's always about that vocal minority and what I'm seeing lately maybe these last maybe 2 years is that the community. Of gamers and not just female gamers but gamers in general they're actually becoming more vocal on calling out inappropriate it's constant harassment because we're all seeing that this is a very slippery slope end if we want to keep providing fun then you know everyone has to pitch in it's not just you know women are not just minorities or not only people working in the industry. And within the games themselves how far have we moved from new female characters being scantily clad in a need of saving and we see more women as the main protagonist Absolutely and I think we're also seeing more women as 2nd rate characters as antagonists as well and I think that there is an interesting definition in the idea of sexy and sexualized like I think when you sex lies a character your think of the audience 1st when you're looking to make a character sexy you're thinking of the character 1st so for example in the past I've always felt a lark off with sexualized in the marketing of her games more than she was in the games themselves i.e. The mother marketed with thinking of the audience they were thinking as I Ok We're going to market this to 18 to 24 year old men as then they sexualized it to appeal to that age group is definitely sexy but that's a different that's a kind of different thing that something is integral to a character you know she's bright she's We've also says she's tonight she's she's beautiful the developers themselves weren't always that comfortable with the sight of that character's Toby God who is the creator of Lara Croft was spoken about how he wasn't very comfortable with why she was sexualized in marketing that was sort of long before I worked on the rebate to write her in 2000 yet again and tell us what did you bring to that I think a different voice a different perspective and we were taking on. A different point in her life so she was 21 she was just out of university she was on her 1st really big adventure so you can see the. Emerging in her that she's learning to stand up for herself she's learning to to fight she is learning to be proactive not just reactive and she's learning about the difficult middle ground in between being human and being the hero and honestly we change the look of Lara and that was just that was established before I was on board so she is probably kind of a more natural look I guess she's pretty buxom before she was she was quite buxom and. Waistline and kind of chest have got bigger or smaller with different incarnations now you get she looks probably more like a woman you would see on the streets she was allowed to be muscular in the movies and that's been folded more into the game so that was really good to see I a woman that actually looked like she can pursue that she was doing and it was like nothing I'd seen before like I was used to Lara kind of pointing her twin pistols out of the game box that you're doing that thing that special pose that female characters often put in whether they're showing their boobs and they're off at the same time in this. Like sawing twisting maneuver that I don't think actual humans. And you trying to. Say Yes We Can I ask you how long have you been in the industry now 4 and a half years now Ok And have you in that time seen more women become the main character Oh yes definitely I think especially these last 2 years there's been like a major search of female protagonists in games or at least a choice between a male or female protagonist whichever you want to play so I sometimes wonder like how much of that comes from a place of intentions for diversity and how much of that comes from this very business perspective you know like I said before you know it's a huge market in the end cannot ignore it. Either way it is for the best obviously sometimes there's still a backlash if people see that you know for example I think there was a battlefield that in its primary marketing materials featured a woman and there were a lot of players that were really enraged about it and someone even called it the last remaining haven for boys or something like that you know as if you know we were coming in and shooting some how people sometimes still you know say oh you know you're being so political right now but how can you not be games they're made in a certain climate they're made in a certain context you cannot just disconnect games and make them in a vacuum now the most popular gaming device today is the small and the most popular genres are puzzle trivia and word games which a lot of women play from your experience Rianna do you think women are playing mobile games because they're interested in mobile games or is it because they're too often excluded from traditional gaming in terms of marketing and the media I think. Are a good gateway game and that's almost kind of like a private space for you to try the games to kind of file to succeed no one's watching you I think as women sometimes we're not encouraged to try as much as men No I when we fear failing it's no coincidence that both of us learn from watching our father as when young you would learn about games it would be Ok to fail because you are failing as many other things in life because you are just a kid who is learning it's just not a part of growing up for young women as it is for guys but I think that is starting to change Ok you have a g. Think the female market is overlooked I always try to like evangelize games to my female friends and I always try to get them hooked with these like sci fi experiences not necessarily Mo buyout but perhaps storytelling you know. An adventure something somewhere where you can just be a character and make a dialogue choice you know vocally decide how you would like certain the situation to develop right now I actually have a few friends who are playing very complex games but you know they needed to have the learning curve to it and it's natural piano but think piece of advice would you have for young women wanting to enter the industry if they want to enter as a writer I would say hone your writing play lots of games look at the different ways and narrative is being used especially the ways that are specific to games the way that level design or gameplay or mechanics are used to help tell the story read and network that's probably the advice I would give to a man as well that is is that the same for women holding your Croft become knowledgeable and become indispensable find your niece kick your doors down like there are still a lot of doors to be kicked down. And you are fucked I would say of course keep playing the games and play them critically if for example you wish to be a game designer try to understand you know why certain decisions were made why I can interact in this way and on that wait what did I like about the game what did I not like about the game and you know it's a job like any you need to you know sell yourself and you do need to be confident that here are the skills here are the things I can bring to the table and you know it's worked for me I kind of use the skills which are not related to game industry per se but I pitched of how I could apply those skills in the industry based on what I have seen in games so just don't be afraid to just get through the door and build games kick the doors down and don't be afraid. You have a neon to thank you both very much for coming on to the conversation thank you my guests today with the wood winning scriptwriter and narrative design every on a project from the u.k. And the Lithuanian game design you have been asking we're back again next week thanks for listening. This is k.u.n.c. 91.5 Greeley Fort Collins Tavi n.c. 90.7 Minturn Vale k r n c 88.5 Steamboat Springs e.n.c. 90.7 s. To spark and k. M.p.b. 90.7 Breckenridge the k.u.n.c. App is a great way to stay up to date while you're on the go all your favorite programs and important news updates on your Android i Pad or i Phone check it out at k.u.n.c. . Listen or download from the App Store of your choice. Here to u.n.c. Without lifting a finger just tell your Amazon echo google home or other smart home device to placate the u.n. See the latest news from the radio station you trust is here for you whenever you want it. Thank you for spending some time listening to k.u.n.c. Make sure you stay with us. Coming up after the news it's people fixing the World with me William Kramer and this week we are talking about the carbon cost of delivering this more and more of us are buying things online on the streets in all cities are getting croaked up with delivery vans and trucks so what to do about it well obviously we can move over to somebody true power delivery vans but we also need to rethink the way that we're doing deliveries.